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      07-07-2016, 04:14 PM   #23
Jeff@TopGearSolutions
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bNks334 View Post
I just picked up a JB4. The more I read into how it works, and what it is actually capable of, the more I realize I made a mistake buying it... It's fun to roll around on the street with, but I would never trust using it for continuous high load events like a track day.

The JB4 sits at the bottom of the barrel when it comes to car tuning options. It is great for its various features. For actually tuning the car it's not so great. It is popular because it is an easy and CHEAP solution to quick power. Most people select a map to race their buddies with and never think twice about what is actually going on with their car.

Basically, anyone pushing real longterm power with the JB4 pretty much just use it for boost control. They get a real custom flash tune to create safe reliable power.

Continue reading if you care to hear more on why I am so frustrated with the JB4...

The JB4 also seems to be programmed in a dumbed down way compared to something like the Cobb AP. It's just not a very powerful product. While the JB4 is monitoring a lot of the more meaningful parameters with its proprietary safety algorithms, the end-user can't actually log the data and review it them-self. You are limited to the few elementary columns of data the JB4 lets you log. I want to be able to see things like actual load vs target load and actual knock noise rather than just seeing ignition timing. Cobb gives the user way more power in this regard.

My biggest gripe with the JB4 is the support. The people at BMS do not seem to actually be very knowledgeable about their own product. The majority of their comments are just one liners that add no substance to any of the questions being asked. They literally skirt and skip over the important stuff and leave you with generic crap like "set everything back to default." It feels like the equivalent of calling tech support for them to just ask you if you've tried turning the product off and on again...

The forums are also an absolute mess of information. You'd think they would've released user manuals for each major firmware release since things have changed vastly over time. The wheel control charts and default user settings aren't even accurate. Some of the logged parameters have drastically changed functionality and meaning over time as well. It makes weeding through forums posts to get information almost impossible. For instance, there were points in time where the header for the columns of logged data didn't even reflect the right numbers. The N55 and N54 firmware is even different, yet you have to look at the N54 thread to get all your information on how the product works. The N55 JB4 doesn't even utilize half the stuff the N54 JB4 does yet the options are still there and there is no explanation that they do nothing. The picture they tell you to look at to get the default user settings has numbers in these settings. Talk about confusing and idiotic.

It just feels like a broken/incomplete piece of software to me... It feels more like "Terry's" personal software experiment rather than a tuning companies mature product. The rest of the staff seems clueless on how it even works. Again, a majority of their responses end up being, "play with it and see what you like," and then they quote the very vague write-up "Terry" did on the product. For instance, they tell you a setting can be set from 1k rpms through 5k rpms, but they avoid explaining the effects of changing the setting from 1k rpms vs 5k rpms...
The JB4 has it's purpose but a proper flash tune is the better route to go for the ideal tuning method.

JB4 works best for those who need the features for back end flashes.

If you've been here since the inception of BMS and their tuners you'd understand more about how things work with their offerings.

I can't say anything bad about them as they've been in the platform for a while and had some good innovations and offerings where nobody else did.

If you just want a tune, stick with a flash option.


Quote:
Originally Posted by drunkenmagnum View Post
According to COBB (I just spoke to them Wed) they are not done with the N55 completely. However, they are WAY behind on their updates. They still haven't overcome the 98G1B ROM. As a COBB V3 user, its very frustrating. I have a $600 tuner that does me no good and I am not willing to backflash because I had the dreaded AC stall problem. The latest updated was the only thing that fixed it.
Supposedly Cobb is continuing with N55 but who knows if that's vaporware or not. I really feel bad for the N55 guys.

Hopefully MHD comes to fruition soon for you.
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      07-07-2016, 06:10 PM   #24
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jeff@TopGearSolutions View Post
The JB4 has it's purpose but a proper flash tune is the better route to go for the ideal tuning method.

JB4 works best for those who need the features for back end flashes.

If you've been here since the inception of BMS and their tuners you'd understand more about how things work with their offerings.

I can't say anything bad about them as they've been in the platform for a while and had some good innovations and offerings where nobody else did.

If you just want a tune, stick with a flash option.




Supposedly Cobb is continuing with N55 but who knows if that's vaporware or not. I really feel bad for the N55 guys.

Hopefully MHD comes to fruition soon for you.
Excellent well rounded unbiased post. Thank you.
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      07-21-2016, 08:17 PM   #25
Papa13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bNks334 View Post
I just picked up a JB4. The more I read into how it works, and what it is actually capable of, the more I realize I made a mistake buying it... It's fun to roll around on the street with, but I would never trust using it for continuous high load events like a track day.

The JB4 sits at the bottom of the barrel when it comes to car tuning options. It is great for its various features. For actually tuning the car it's not so great. It is popular because it is an easy and CHEAP solution to quick power. Most people select a map to race their buddies with and never think twice about what is actually going on with their car.

Basically, anyone pushing real longterm power with the JB4 pretty much just use it for boost control. They get a real custom flash tune to create safe reliable power.

Continue reading if you care to hear more on why I am so frustrated with the JB4...

The JB4 also seems to be programmed in a dumbed down way compared to something like the Cobb AP. It's just not a very powerful product. While the JB4 is monitoring a lot of the more meaningful parameters with its proprietary safety algorithms, the end-user can't actually log the data and review it them-self. You are limited to the few elementary columns of data the JB4 lets you log. I want to be able to see things like actual load vs target load and actual knock noise rather than just seeing ignition timing. Cobb gives the user way more power in this regard.

My biggest gripe with the JB4 is the support. The people at BMS do not seem to actually be very knowledgeable about their own product. The majority of their comments are just one liners that add no substance to any of the questions being asked. They literally skirt and skip over the important stuff and leave you with generic crap like "set everything back to default." It feels like the equivalent of calling tech support for them to just ask you if you've tried turning the product off and on again...

The forums are also an absolute mess of information. You'd think they would've released user manuals for each major firmware release since things have changed vastly over time. The wheel control charts and default user settings aren't even accurate. Some of the logged parameters have drastically changed functionality and meaning over time as well. It makes weeding through forums posts to get information almost impossible. For instance, there were points in time where the header for the columns of logged data didn't even reflect the right numbers. The N55 and N54 firmware is even different, yet you have to look at the N54 thread to get all your information on how the product works. The N55 JB4 doesn't even utilize half the stuff the N54 JB4 does yet the options are still there and there is no explanation that they do nothing. The picture they tell you to look at to get the default user settings has numbers in these settings. Talk about confusing and idiotic.

It just feels like a broken/incomplete piece of software to me... It feels more like "Terry's" personal software experiment rather than a tuning companies mature product. The rest of the staff seems clueless on how it even works. Again, a majority of their responses end up being, "play with it and see what you like," and then they quote the very vague write-up "Terry" did on the product. For instance, they tell you a setting can be set from 1k rpms through 5k rpms, but they avoid explaining the effects of changing the setting from 1k rpms vs 5k rpms...
I think u are a tad bit mis informed on what the juice box actually does. First of all jb3 was on my first n54 for over 80k miles and never had one problem. Now, jb4 has been on my second n54 for over 35k mikes and not one problem. Daily driving plus a combined 20ish track days. Running on the more aggressive maps. So, for reliability, I havnt run any tune that comes close. Now, what JB does is essentially put an entirely new ecu on the car. Every peramiter is re worked on the new board. It doesn't trick. It bypasses the oem ecu and esentially runs on an entirely new ecu. It's far more complicated and intracit then u are making it sound. Plus, when it comes to power gains, BMS owns almost all the records for power/times on the n54. I don't know who u talked to at BMS that was "idiotic" but terry is a genius. If u ever talk to terry your eyes will open up a little.

Now, I'm not going to tell u that one is better then the other. I will just tell u that out of the tunes I have tried/run, I would run notning else but jb4. But hey opionions are like buttholes, everyone's got one right?

N54tech.com the website u stated had no information, or I forgot exactly what u said, is actually very informative. Terry has everything on there. Don't know what threads you were looking at exactly. But if u go back and check the texhnical threads that terry starts. U will learn more in 30 minutes about the ecu's in these cars then days searching Google.

In conclusion, there has been the debate tune vs piggyback since the beginning of time it seems. Both have perks, both have cons. If I could advise anytbing, it would be to drive a car with JB then a car with Cobb, see which one u like better. If your worrried about reliability, your playing witb Fire with any of them. Anything that increases the performance while adding boost psi has the potential to damage something. But, I've aeen cars with 100k+ miles on many of the tunes with little to no problems. Your favorite may be Differnt then my favorite. Happy hunting.

Ps - long live the twins!!
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      07-22-2016, 11:35 AM   #26
bNks334
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Papa13 View Post
It's far more complicated and intracit then u are making it sound.
While I was definitely a bit harsh with my words, it is you that is giving entirely too much credence to the JB4's tuning ability.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Papa13 View Post
Your favorite may be Differnt then my favorite.
My post wasn't about favorites. My post was intended to point out that the JB4 isn't all that everyone makes it out to be. The average user, like yourself, just throws it into a map and never thinks twice about how well their car is actually performing. If that is what you want, then go ahead and buy the JB4.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Papa13 View Post
I will just tell u that out of the tunes I have tried/run, I would run notning else but jb4. But hey opionions are like buttholes, everyone's got one right?
If all you will ever run is a JB4 then you are leaving some serious performance and reliability gains on the table. What isn't clear here is whether or not you are also using a BMS BEF. In which case, yes, the JB4 is a great add-on and you're getting the best of both worlds!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Papa13 View Post
Plus, when it comes to power gains, BMS owns almost all the records for power/times on the n54.
I can go down the street and get the world's best cup of coffee too, does that mean that it really is? What do you think, that BMS is laying down record breaking power by setting their test car to Map7? BMS's"records" aren't achieved with the JB4 "maps." They are achieved using flash tunes with tables customized on a dyno.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Papa13 View Post
Daily driving plus a combined 20ish track days. Running on the more aggressive maps. So, for reliability, I havnt run any tune that comes close.
A car running fine with the JB4 doesn't mean that the JB4 itself is a robust tuning device.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Papa13 View Post
I don't know who u talked to at BMS that was "idiotic" but terry is a genius.
That was my point. Terry is the only one who has any clue about anything or at least cares enough to provide useful information.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Papa13 View Post
N54tech.com the website u stated had no information, or I forgot exactly what u said, is actually very informative. Terry has everything on there.
What you're saying just simply isn't true. The N54tech guides may have been accurate in the past, but right now they are a mess. Login for yourself and see all the threads/posts from users asking why settings don't work or why the user controls don't match the guides.

I don't have a biased opinion. I am using the JB4 as we speak and its been a hell of a road to try to figure out all the things BMS neglects to tell you. Such as, Map5 wont auto tune correctly if you have a flash like the ppk, the JB4 only works with certain DME roms (had to update my DME with winkfp), and the fact that even on Ma p1 you're going to have to add E85 to prevent knock because of the lack of the JB4's ability to adjust timing. These are all things the average user will probably never bother looking into.

I really to be given some work to do at work so I can stop wasting my time posting on things like this lol

Last edited by bNks334; 07-28-2016 at 02:25 PM..
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      07-31-2016, 08:36 PM   #27
bodega_bladerunner
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Subbed for future reading as I'm beginning to grow tired of the jb4 piggyback. I'd rather a flash tube and mhd is sounding like a good option
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      07-31-2016, 10:12 PM   #28
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Thank you for all the input, everyone. I did end up buying a second hand JB4 but the seller scammed me and never sent it.

I have since decided to go with MHD but I'm waiting until I get an upgraded charge pipe before I do so.
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