Harnesses and safety

[white911]

I looked at the 'Harness where do you mount it' post and several things struck me as wrong right off the bat and thought it was time to start another thread -- Probably time to put on the Kevlar as well. -- Four point Y belt with the shoulder straps permanently affixed to the lap belt. -- This would not be OK for racing why is it OK for driving as fast as you can on a race track? I suspect that in DEs or Track Day events the likelihood of an incident is lower; but, is the potential severity lower?

I think many of us must view the question of safety a little differently; surely people would not resort to putting stuff in their cars to meet minimum safety regulations. Or do they put it in their car to improve their driving experience?

A CG lock or a lap belt to supplement the standard three-point will keep you in the seat; but, if you are going to get ‘serious’ about this and install harnesses, why not get serious? If you are going to wear a harness, why select a 4-point when a four point is considered dangerous by some while a five point is considered minimal. If you are in an incident where you must rely on your safety systems you have to ask yourself why you scrimped on that extra belt, harness bar, hahns or roll-over protection. When I started club racing, the shoulders harnesses had to be mounted above a 45 degree angle with the guide. Subsequently the rules have been refined to require mounting above a 20 degree downward angle. ‘above a line drawn downward from the shoulder point at an angle of twenty (20) degrees with the horizontal. The seat itself, or anything added only to the seat shall not be considered a suitable guide. Guides must be a part of the roll cage or a part of the car structure.’ Why was the angle raised? How can belts mounted at a 45 or greater angle and guided by the seat provide adequate level of protection? It has been explained to me that the rules were tightened up to reduce spinal injuries.

‘Y’ belts used to be OK – but now Y-type shoulder straps are not allowed. I prefer to instruct in cars with harnesses so that I may wear my Hahns. It does me no good if it is sitting in the truck.

[Ruffan]

Glad I came across this thread. Are there any knowledgeable racers who can help advise what IS appropriate for a harness system?

I've seen the custom cage that BR Racing put in their car, which seems like a reasonable solution, but what kind of harness is mounted to that, and how is it done? I'm at the point where I'm going to the track frequently enough to want to get harnesses, but need some more information in order to do it.

Thanks in advance to anyone who responds.

[Ruffan]

ttt

[bradford]

I use a Schroth Quick fit harness that I had in my S4 previously. The male buckles work with the 135i female section. Though I'd prefer a lesser angle for the rear mounting points, this is my daily driver and I'm not installing a harness bar.

I use the harnesses not for safety but for car control. An ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure IMHO, and I don't want to spend 10% of my energy trying not to fall out the window while I'm at the track.

Also, the Schroth harnesses have the ASM system which allows the inside shoulder harness to extend about 4-6 inches extra, permitting your torso to rotate in and down like an OEM seatbelt in the event of an impact. This relieves stress on the spine, channels the body's motion inboard, and reduces the risk of submarining.

[Ruffan]

thanks. This is exactly what I'm looking to do...just keep me firmly in place while at the track so I don't have to brace against the dead pedal and with my knees.

I'll look into the Schroth Quick Fit

[Ruffan]

FYI, for those who are interested in this harness:

Just spoke with Schroth. The 1 series harness has been delayed due to insufficient testing. The current word is that it'll be maybe 2 months from today, but it could easily slip well past that.

[bradford]

The Schroth Quick Fit for Audi harnesses fit fine. Here's the link to the one I have installed in my car: http://www.schrothracing.com/store/T...fit/qf-vw-audi

For the outboard lap belt I removed the rear outboard bolt holding the seat rail to the body, inserted the Schroth harness mount in between the rail and the body, and reinstalled the seat bolt. The whole harness clips in and out and when it's out there are just two unobtrusively located male buckle inserts.

[Ruffan]

perfect, thanks.

[m3bs]

Be aware that 4-pt harnesses are not permitted at DEs by some organizations, including the Schroth belts.

[Spec Volcanic]

Originally Posted by white911

I looked at the 'Harness where do you mount it' post and several things struck me as wrong right off the bat and thought it was time to start another thread -- Probably time to put on the Kevlar as well. -- Four point Y belt with the shoulder straps permanently affixed to the lap belt. -- This would not be OK for racing why is it OK for driving as fast as you can on a race track? I suspect that in DEs or Track Day events the likelihood of an incident is lower; but, is the potential severity lower?

Most DE's and Track days do not allow a Y type shoulder straps, and lots don't allow any 4 points

Originally Posted by white911

I think many of us must view the question of safety a little differently; surely people would not resort to putting stuff in their cars to meet minimum safety regulations. Or do they put it in their car to improve their driving experience?

Lots do the minimun...
To save money
Because they don't even think the minimum should be required
etc...

Originally Posted by white911

A CG lock or a lap belt to supplement the standard three-point will keep you in the seat; but, if you are going to get ‘serious’ about this and install harnesses, why not get serious?

Because you do not have rollover protection and a harness without rollover protection is a bad idea.

Originally Posted by white911

If you are going to wear a harness, why select a 4-point when a four point is considered dangerous by some while a five point is considered minimal.

Why not a 6 point?

Originally Posted by white911

Why was the angle raised? How can belts mounted at a 45 or greater angle and guided by the seat provide adequate level of protection? It has been explained to me that the rules were tightened up to reduce spinal injuries.

This is correct steep angles can cause compression of the spinal in inpacts...
Also rules change as ways to provided injuries are discovered

Originally Posted by white911

‘Y’ belts used to be OK – but now Y-type shoulder straps are not allowed. I prefer to instruct in cars with harnesses so that I may wear my Hahns. It does me no good if it is sitting in the truck.

I'd bet Hans advises against with a Y-type shoulder straps with it.

[larryn]

Originally Posted by Ruffan

FYI, for those who are interested in this harness:

Just spoke with Schroth. The 1 series harness has been delayed due to insufficient testing. The current word is that it'll be maybe 2 months from today, but it could easily slip well past that.

I was told that there should be something in a couple months... 2 years ago, by HMS... HMS Motorsports owns that website.. same address, same location.

You either spoke to Joe (the owner) or Matt.

My car had a test fitment done back then.

[Ruffan]

I’m aware that 4-point harnesses are not ideal and that some DEs do not allow them. SO, what are my options for a street car without a roll-cage? I want a harness because the stock 3-point belts don't hold me firmly in my seat. If the Schroth quick fit with AST is no more dangerous than stock, I don't understand why that wouldn't be a good option.

Are there 5 or 6 point harnesses that I can install which do not require any sort of harness mounting bar (roll cage)?

Larry, what do you use?

[larryn]

Originally Posted by Ruffan

Larry, what do you use?

Shroth bolt-ins.

[Ruffan]

Originally Posted by larryn

Shroth bolt-ins.

With HANS?

[larryn]

Originally Posted by Ruffan

With HANS?

No. I'm primarily an autocrosser.

[pkcormier]

Has anyone tried activating the centrifugal belt lock on the OEM 3-point? I've used this poor-man alternative with pretty good results.
1. put belt on.
2. slide your seat back a couple inches.
3. activate belt lock by pulling down quickly on the shoulder belt with your right hand
4. while holding belt tight (and locked) move seat forward so that your body position maintains resistance on the belt. This will keep the belt locked
5. Adjust for comfort.

This keeps me pretty secure. My only problems have been not keeping enough tension and the belt loosens in the middle of a run-session and I start sliding around.

[bradford]

Originally Posted by pkcormier

Has anyone tried activating the centrifugal belt lock on the OEM 3-point? I've used this poor-man alternative with pretty good results.
1. put belt on.
2. slide your seat back a couple inches.
3. activate belt lock by pulling down quickly on the shoulder belt with your right hand
4. while holding belt tight (and locked) move seat forward so that your body position maintains resistance on the belt. This will keep the belt locked
5. Adjust for comfort.

This keeps me pretty secure. My only problems have been not keeping enough tension and the belt loosens in the middle of a run-session and I start sliding around.

I used that in my student's 135i a couple weeks ago. It certainly helps, but isn't really comparable to a harness. Definitely better than nothing though.

[larryn]

Originally Posted by bradford

I used that in my student's 135i a couple weeks ago. It certainly helps, but isn't really comparable to a harness. Definitely better than nothing though.

Another thing "better than nothing" is the CG-Lock, which I have on my regular street belts. They certainly lock you in really well, for what they are!

http://www.cg-lock.com/index.html

It is not a substitute for real harnesses though.

[Ruffan]

Originally Posted by pkcormier

Has anyone tried activating the centrifugal belt lock on the OEM 3-point? I've used this poor-man alternative with pretty good results.
1. put belt on.
2. slide your seat back a couple inches.
3. activate belt lock by pulling down quickly on the shoulder belt with your right hand
4. while holding belt tight (and locked) move seat forward so that your body position maintains resistance on the belt. This will keep the belt locked
5. Adjust for comfort.

This keeps me pretty secure. My only problems have been not keeping enough tension and the belt loosens in the middle of a run-session and I start sliding around.

I do this on the track. It's definitely helpful.