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      09-25-2012, 04:27 AM   #45
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The howl of the N54 in the 1M sounds so much better than the Cayman's flat 6 in this video.
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      09-25-2012, 04:29 AM   #46
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Beemw335 View Post
There was a 1m dyno comparison with a jb4 135i and they both made basicaly the same power.
So the 1m is basically 390 crank horsepower, with tons of torque.
Sorry - I don't think the 1M has 390HP from factory unless I am missing something?
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      09-25-2012, 04:47 AM   #47
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Straight line acceleration - Speedo of Cayman R vs. 1M.

In this video the 1M initially ferociously pulls away, but then the Cayman R gets into hot pursuit and outruns the 1M at 230 km/h (judging by the oil temp, the 1M was well warmed up ):



As we know, the 1M is officially limited to 250km/h. On a flat road surface the 1M speedo normally does not pass 270 km/h.

See from 00:24 onwards:


See from 00:31 onwards:
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      09-25-2012, 06:17 AM   #48
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I seriously always wonder when I watch these videos how he could tell how good the "turn in" is or how good the brake "bites". He's not even pushing the car to its limits but just cruising around. He must be a race car driver to feel all that input coming from the car. These reviews should be on a track in order to see the real potential performance.
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      09-25-2012, 07:59 AM   #49
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Alext View Post
Sorry - I don't think the 1M has 390HP from factory unless I am missing something?
Sounds too high. Max I heard was 380 (without a dyno chart) in this Forum long time ago, was from UK. Most 1Ms are reported to have around 350 to 360 hp from factory. Mine included (calculated, 353 bhp/358 ps).
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      09-25-2012, 09:15 AM   #50
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Alext View Post
Sorry - I don't think the 1M has 390HP from factory unless I am missing something?
"Wheel horsepower" vs. "flywheel horsepower".

Wheel horsepower to crankshaft horsepower guestimator (tool):
http://www.mk5cortinaestate.co.uk/calculator4.php
See also: http://www.ehow.com/how_6625216_calc...rse-power.html

Anyways, the official 340hp is rather "conservative". Most estimates I read about ranged around 350 hp.

And Belgian forum fellow M3Power79 already managed to achieve 0-100km/h (0-62mph) in only 4.4s with a stock 1M (official BMW figure: 4.9s). That 1M must have had nitro in its fuel tank. (http://www.1addicts.com/forums/showthread.php?t=668716).

Why "conservative" figures ? I guess BMW did not want to stir up its M3 fanbase when introducing the 1M.

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      09-25-2012, 09:47 AM   #51
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MrRoboto View Post
The Cayman R under it's current style was sold for 2011 and 2012. I doubt we will see an R version of the 981 for a number of years.
In late 2013 / early 2014, Porsche hopes to score big time with the Porsche Macan Turbo: baby SUV (crossover) with new 3.0-liter twin-turbocharged V6 engine that produces 370 horsepower and 400 lb/ft of torque. For sure a radically different concept than the Cayman (backseats - crossover), but also targeting BMW customers who fancy a spacious - but not too big - family car with quite some oomph. New contender, albeit neither fish nor flesh for me.
(http://www.autocar.co.uk/car-news/ne...-blasts-370bhp)

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      09-25-2012, 10:16 AM   #52
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Alext View Post
Sorry - I don't think the 1M has 390HP from factory unless I am missing something?
It all depends what correction factors you use to estimate crank power. Many 1Ms are dynoing around 320-330 hp at the wheels, up to around 370 torque on a dynojet. With these numbers I'd estimate the stronger 1Ms are putting out around 370 crank hp under optimum conditions, up to 420 torque (so up to 110% of factory ratings).

I understand that during BMW's standard power test they heat-soak the motor, which reduces power and may partly explain why the factory numbers are conservative.

The E9X M3's V8, on the other hand, seems to be slightly over-rated by the same measure, generally dynoing at 350 hp at the wheels (so more like 95% of factory ratings). It's likely that in BMW's test they don't drop off as much due to heat-soak, however...
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      09-25-2012, 10:42 AM   #53
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Artemis View Post
In late 2013 / early 2014, Porsche hopes to score big time with the Porsche Macan Turbo: baby SUV (crossover) with new 3.0-liter twin-turbocharged V6 engine that produces 370 horsepower and 400 lb/ft of torque. For sure a radically different concept than the Cayman (backseats - crossover), but also targeting BMW customers who fancy a spacious - but not too big - family car with quite some oomph. New contender, albeit neither fish nor flesh for me.
(http://www.autocar.co.uk/car-news/ne...-blasts-370bhp)

Attachment 755426
You are confusing the Cayman with the Cayanne. I doubt very much those who are in the market for a 2 seater coupe (Cayman) would consider a new 4x4 (Macan).
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      09-25-2012, 12:41 PM   #54
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Furthermore about "conservative" or "modest" figures quoted by BMW for the 1M: for calibration a car manufacturer could apply the ISO norm (International Organization for Standardization), rather than the DIN norm (Deutsches Institut für Normung e.V. - German Institute for Standardization).

Probably BMW applies the most "conservative" of the two, which could explain different results when measuring for example torque values (Nm).
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      09-25-2012, 12:54 PM   #55
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Carbon-M View Post
I seriously always wonder when I watch these videos how he could tell how good the "turn in" is or how good the brake "bites". He's not even pushing the car to its limits but just cruising around. He must be a race car driver to feel all that input coming from the car. These reviews should be on a track in order to see the real potential performance.
Agree with what you're saying in principle, but I think that the review gives you the perspective of an average driver in "the real world" when going at more normal speeds. I think that was his point in the review...he prefers the 1M in the real world where it "feels" like it's turning in better and stopping faster, even if it really isn't.

PS: My track car has less initial braking bite than my BMW on the street as well, though my track car will outstop it on the race track.
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      09-25-2012, 03:35 PM   #56
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Quote:
Originally Posted by crex
Yeah well at least you can buy a cayman, BMW screwed all of us who wanted a 1M and couldn't get one.

And They are SO mean! I heard them talking and planning about screwing as many customers as possible.
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      09-25-2012, 03:55 PM   #57
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Quote:
Originally Posted by crex View Post
Yeah well at least you can buy a cayman, BMW screwed all of us who wanted a 1M and couldn't get one.
Quote:
Originally Posted by M3 Adjuster View Post
And They are SO mean! I heard them talking and planning about screwing as many customers as possible.
LOL!! Technically... You can still get a 1M
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      09-26-2012, 10:38 AM   #58
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Pete_vB View Post
I think he sells the Cayman R short. Perhaps it's because the review was only on the road, perhaps it's because of the type of road, certainly it's because of the type of driver he is (he doesn't enjoy winding the motor out). For whatever reason he never got the Cayman...

I own a 1M and I'd buy it again if I had it to do over. However having spent time in both I can't agree with his review.
Agreed. Plus almost all other reviews have said the Cayman R is the better/more special car to have.

I think the Cayman R is certainly the better car. Much faster on the track, easier to push harder, and in a straight it's faster as well especially at higher speeds. Not to mention a better 6mt, better steering and brakes and throttle response is on a different level.
The 1M is very much like the M3...its not going to win when it comes to any area of performance but is good all around and offers practicality and space the Cayman R doesnt.
That said, from my experience the cayman R just brings a bit more to the table when it comes to being a scalpel like tool that connects with the driver and cannot be matched for anywhere near the same price.
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      09-26-2012, 12:42 PM   #59
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Wolfinwolfsclothing View Post
Agreed. Plus almost all other reviews have said the Cayman R is the better/more special car to have.

I think the Cayman R is certainly the better car. Much faster on the track, easier to push harder, and in a straight it's faster as well especially at higher speeds. Not to mention a better 6mt, better steering and brakes and throttle response is on a different level.
The 1M is very much like the M3...its not going to win when it comes to any area of performance but is good all around and offers practicality and space the Cayman R doesnt.
That said, from my experience the cayman R just brings a bit more to the table when it comes to being a scalpel like tool that connects with the driver and cannot be matched for anywhere near the same price.
If his review was based strictly on track use the sure the CR may be the better choice but for overall street and track performance, comfort, amenities, price, etc the 1M is a clear winner. This has been proven countless times.
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      09-26-2012, 12:54 PM   #60
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MrRoboto View Post
If his review was based strictly on track use the sure the CR may be the better choice but for overall street and track performance, comfort, amenities, price, etc the 1M is a clear winner. This has been proven countless times.
This.

Also, I wouldn't sell the 1M or the M3 short when up against the CR. The BMWs have posted better times on certain tracks.

Also, the Cayman R maybe more 'special' than the M3 which is quite ubiquitous, but the 1M is rarer and a better overall package.
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      09-26-2012, 01:30 PM   #61
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ozinaldo View Post
Sounds too high. Max I heard was 380 (without a dyno chart) in this Forum long time ago, was from UK. Most 1Ms are reported to have around 350 to 360 hp from factory. Mine included (calculated, 353 bhp/358 ps).
I'm heading back to the dyno soon but here's my baseline in the meantime:

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      09-26-2012, 02:06 PM   #62
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tuned1M View Post
I'm heading back to the dyno soon but here's my baseline in the meantime:

Interesting. My fully stock car's (Mustang) dyno curve and peak numbers were a bit different and they were very similar, well almost identical with GIAC's stock 1M run in their Mustang dyno. Here you can see my data and dyno chart:

http://www.1addicts.com/forums/showthread.php?t=745649
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      09-26-2012, 02:21 PM   #63
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Wolfinwolfsclothing View Post
Agreed. Plus almost all other reviews have said the Cayman R is the better/more special car to have.

I think the Cayman R is certainly the better car. Much faster on the track, easier to push harder, and in a straight it's faster as well especially at higher speeds. Not to mention a better 6mt, better steering and brakes and throttle response is on a different level.
The 1M is very much like the M3...its not going to win when it comes to any area of performance but is good all around and offers practicality and space the Cayman R doesnt.
That said, from my experience the cayman R just brings a bit more to the table when it comes to being a scalpel like tool that connects with the driver and cannot be matched for anywhere near the same price.
Generally correct but; first, Cayman R is not faster than a 1M on a straight till minimum 220-230 km/h, especially so if it is a manual gear box like 1M; and it falls definitely way behind in in-gear acceleration which is maybe even more important on the road. I also have to add that a base Cayman R does not have better brakes at all. Like Farah says repeatedly in the video, you need the bigger carbon-ceramic brakes option for that, base Cayman R brakes are the same brakes of Cayman S, and smaller in dimension and are not among the strong points of that car (the option will cost you 8000 Euro in Europe and 8000 USD in US). I agree with the rest of your post but the areas that R is better than the 1M, they are nowhere 30,000 USD worth better, we are talking about relativity at a niche here.

A car is a package not a one-dimensional object (at least not for me) so I do not see the Cayman R making sense against a 1M, even if it would be priced equally, this is unless you have a garage full of different cars and you need to have the Cayman R too for whatever it is doing at best: a mid engined, low, light and super balanced sports car for track fun.
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      09-26-2012, 02:59 PM   #64
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MrRoboto View Post
If his review was based strictly on track use the sure the CR may be the better choice but for overall street and track performance, comfort, amenities, price, etc the 1M is a clear winner. This has been proven countless times.
Quote:
Originally Posted by b33g33 View Post
This.

Also, I wouldn't sell the 1M or the M3 short when up against the CR. The BMWs have posted better times on certain tracks.

Also, the Cayman R maybe more 'special' than the M3 which is quite ubiquitous, but the 1M is rarer and a better overall package.
Quote:
Originally Posted by ozinaldo View Post
Generally correct but; first, Cayman R is not faster than a 1M on a straight till minimum 220-230 km/h, especially so if it is a manual gear box like 1M; and it falls definitely way behind in in-gear acceleration which is maybe even more important on the road. I also have to add that a base Cayman R does not have better brakes at all. Like Farah says repeatedly in the video, you need the bigger carbon-ceramic brakes option for that, base Cayman R brakes are the same brakes of Cayman S, and smaller in dimension and are not among the strong points of that car (the option will cost you 8000 Euro in Europe and 8000 USD in US). I agree with the rest of your post but the areas that R is better than the 1M, they are nowhere 30,000 USD worth better, we are talking about relativity at a niche here.

A car is a package not a one-dimensional object (at least not for me) so I do not see the Cayman R making sense against a 1M, even if it would be priced equally, this is unless you have a garage full of different cars and you need to have the Cayman R too for whatever it is doing at best: a mid engined, low, light and super balanced sports car for track fun.
All of you have valid points, however, having had the chance to drive them back to back on a few different occasions I do not agree with some of what you are saying.
Most reviews have picked the Cayman R saying its just that good...my impressions were in line with those.
Yes straight line is close if youre talking 6mt vs 6mt with the top end going to the R. Cayman R with PDK is def faster.
As for track times, that is no contest as the Cayman R dominates on all according to fastest laps.
As for brakes, the Cayman R's brakes are better and will last longer on the track and in hard driving. Funny thing is, if you read the EVO review, they has the biggest gripe on the 1M being the brakes where the Cayman R was unflappable and unfazed no matter what.
I also believe the better overall package is the Cayman R IF you do not need the extra seats. I found it to be much more pure and organic in every aspect over the 1M which seems to be a common theme. Things like the natural balance of the R and the instant throttle response and best gearbox ever put in a street car are things the 1M just cant touch not to mention the pull all the way to redline. I also liked the ride better in the Cayman R as it was better on the rough patches and it felt FAR more planted at speed.

Here is actually an interesting article on the Cayman R, M3 and 1M.

"It’s impossible to deny the feeling the Cayman R provides. After first stepping out of the car I was on a real high. It was akin to Richard Hammond’s “I am a driving god” moment. Nothing the brilliant 1M could offer matched that feeling. I can only imagine how much fun the Cayman R would be on a track. You just know it would take whatever punishment you could throw at it. Only to beg you to come back for more. However, not every day takes you on a B-road blast or to the safe confines of a billiard-table smooth circuit.

The 1M, of course, is no slouch. It is building a deserved reputation as a modern-day icon. It will carry that burden with some ease, too. At the limit the 1M is very, very good, but it cannot match the Cayman R. Yet, its four seats, more comfortable ride and more versatile engine give the 1M a much broader range.

When considering a number of scenarios, these two cars are almost impossible to split. BMW claimed the 1M would give us goose pimples. To be fair, it probably has. But there was only one car that made us feel immortal.

The Cayman R."

http://www.ausmotive.com/2011/07/31/....html#comments

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      09-26-2012, 03:27 PM   #65
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Wolfinwolfsclothing View Post
All of you have valid points, however, having had the chance to drive them back to back on a few different occasions I do not agree with some of what you are saying.
Most reviews have picked the Cayman R saying its just that good...my impressions were in line with those.
Yes straight line is close if youre talking 6mt vs 6mt with the top end going to the R. Cayman R with PDK is def faster.
As for track times, that is no contest as the Cayman R dominates on all according to fastest laps.
As for brakes, the Cayman R's brakes are better and will last longer on the track and in hard driving. Funny thing is, if you read the EVO review, they has the biggest gripe on the 1M being the brakes where the Cayman R was unflappable and unfazed no matter what.
I also believe the better overall package is the Cayman R IF you do not need the extra seats. I found it to be much more pure and organic in every aspect over the 1M which seems to be a common theme. Things like the natural balance of the R and the instant throttle response and best gearbox ever put in a street car are things the 1M just cant touch not to mention the pull all the way to redline. I also liked the ride better in the Cayman R as it was better on the rough patches and it felt FAR more planted at speed.

Here is actually an interesting article on the Cayman R, M3 and 1M.

"It’s impossible to deny the feeling the Cayman R provides. After first stepping out of the car I was on a real high. It was akin to Richard Hammond’s “I am a driving god” moment. Nothing the brilliant 1M could offer matched that feeling. I can only imagine how much fun the Cayman R would be on a track. You just know it would take whatever punishment you could throw at it. Only to beg you to come back for more. However, not every day takes you on a B-road blast or to the safe confines of a billiard-table smooth circuit.

The 1M, of course, is no slouch. It is building a deserved reputation as a modern-day icon. It will carry that burden with some ease, too. At the limit the 1M is very, very good, but it cannot match the Cayman R. Yet, its four seats, more comfortable ride and more versatile engine give the 1M a much broader range.

When considering a number of scenarios, these two cars are almost impossible to split. BMW claimed the 1M would give us goose pimples. To be fair, it probably has. But there was only one car that made us feel immortal.

The Cayman R."

http://www.ausmotive.com/2011/07/31/....html#comments
No one denies the natural and direct feeling that Cayman R provides par excellence. But a Lotus Elise/Exige/Evora also provide that if not even better. Would we really compare them with the versatility of 1M? And why you even quote EVO since they chose the 1M as the overall winner in their comparison test against the Cayman R, TT RS and 370Z? My e-copy is on my desktop like all other recent EVO issues. The same issue they make another comparison where they choose the 1M over its bigger brother E92 M3, a less quoted part of that same issue! They say that they still love the M3 and it is just great but 1M is just better...these EVO people,they always play with fire. Sometime after that comparison test they also placed the 1M over the Cayman R and many other great cars at the third place in their ECOTY, just behind a 911 GT3 RS 4.0 and McLaren MP4 12C. So, my friendly advice at least stop quoting EVO as your witness at this particular arguement And when did fastest lap site become a reliable source of information, everything and anything about that site is questionable at its best. Plus, another slight correction; I remember that the Cyman R from EVO review had the carbon-ceramic option.

Cayman R (I would personally choose Boxster Spyder by the way, has much more character in its design and goes equally good if not better-it has much better lap time than the Cayman R in EVO test-) has undeniable and class leading qualities and it is absolutely normal that your personal choice is the Porsche not the 1M. However, the arguements you provide just do not change the very fact that it has a much narrower use and a hard to justify price tag. And that was the real point of this last video review after all. You should just say that you liked the feel of Cayman over 1M, which is totally fine.
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Last edited by ozinaldo; 09-26-2012 at 03:33 PM..
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      09-26-2012, 03:33 PM   #66
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Wolfinwolfsclothing View Post
All of you have valid points, however, having had the chance to drive them back to back on a few different occasions I do not agree with some of what you are saying.
Most reviews have picked the Cayman R saying its just that good...my impressions were in line with those.
Yes straight line is close if youre talking 6mt vs 6mt with the top end going to the R. Cayman R with PDK is def faster.
As for track times, that is no contest as the Cayman R dominates on all according to fastest laps.
As for brakes, the Cayman R's brakes are better and will last longer on the track and in hard driving. Funny thing is, if you read the EVO review, they has the biggest gripe on the 1M being the brakes where the Cayman R was unflappable and unfazed no matter what.
I also believe the better overall package is the Cayman R IF you do not need the extra seats. I found it to be much more pure and organic in every aspect over the 1M which seems to be a common theme. Things like the natural balance of the R and the instant throttle response and best gearbox ever put in a street car are things the 1M just cant touch not to mention the pull all the way to redline. I also liked the ride better in the Cayman R as it was better on the rough patches and it felt FAR more planted at speed.

Here is actually an interesting article on the Cayman R, M3 and 1M.

"It’s impossible to deny the feeling the Cayman R provides. After first stepping out of the car I was on a real high. It was akin to Richard Hammond’s “I am a driving god” moment. Nothing the brilliant 1M could offer matched that feeling. I can only imagine how much fun the Cayman R would be on a track. You just know it would take whatever punishment you could throw at it. Only to beg you to come back for more. However, not every day takes you on a B-road blast or to the safe confines of a billiard-table smooth circuit.

The 1M, of course, is no slouch. It is building a deserved reputation as a modern-day icon. It will carry that burden with some ease, too. At the limit the 1M is very, very good, but it cannot match the Cayman R. Yet, its four seats, more comfortable ride and more versatile engine give the 1M a much broader range.

When considering a number of scenarios, these two cars are almost impossible to split. BMW claimed the 1M would give us goose pimples. To be fair, it probably has. But there was only one car that made us feel immortal.

The Cayman R."

http://www.ausmotive.com/2011/07/31/....html#comments
Do you mean this Evo article where they picked the 1M over the Cayman R?

http://www.1addicts.com/forums/showthread.php?t=628462

"High-speed corners reveal understeer, but you can play with the weight transfer on turn- in with a slight lift of the throttle to get things neutralised. Thanks to the R’s weight savings, none of these handling traits is too snappy, and it’s certainly effective – posting a 1.25.5 lap time – but consistently working at the limit of the tyres’ grip does reveal a more expressive side to the Cayman R.

The 1M is a big surprise for different reasons. It generates tremendous grip and traction, putting all its prodigious, overboost-fattened torque into the tarmac with little complaint. Where the M diff could at times feel abrupt on the road, it works brilliantly on the track, giving the car a beautifully neutral balance, with the ability to be steered precisely on the throttle. Crucially, it still generates plenty of forward momentum, so you can let the 1M slide without it degenerating into a pointless drift challenge. The brakes – so often a cause for complaint on M-cars – have power and stamina too, making this an accomplished and entertaining trackday machine. It manages a best lap just 0.4sec shy of the Cayman and, ironically, identical to the E92 M3, albeit on a different day with a different driver."

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The BMW and Porsche were always going to be the stars of the test, but it would have taken a braver man than I to predict a winner before we began. The Cayman R has been widely – and rightly – praised for its commitment to mass reduction and subsequently brilliant handling. Truth be told we were all under its spell for the first day of the test, dazzled by its brilliance and mesmerised by its purity and fitness for purpose. As photographer Jamie Lipman said while shooting details: ‘They can even paint it a hideous green and stick a stupid spoiler on the back and I still want one!’

However, the longer we spent with it and the more times we swapped to and from the 1M, the greater the admiration and affection we felt for the BMW. It’s not that we fell out of love with the Cayman, far from it in fact. Indeed, our guest tester, sports car racer Andy Wallace, almost had a tear in his eye when he proclaimed it ‘the best-handling road car I think I’ve ever driven’. Both Catchpole and I were with him on that, yet the charms of the 1M were proving impossible to resist.

No, it doesn’t have the immaculate polish and homogenous tactility of the Porsche – the brakes are over-assisted at road speeds and it lacks the remarkable pliancy and supple body control of the Cayman – but it counters with scintillating overtaking ability, greater levels of mechanical grip and a handling balance that’s almost as sweet. Emotionally the clincher is its unique character and thoroughly up-for-it attitude. Factor-in its four useable seats, on-track ability and a £16K price advantage in as-tested spec and it’s clear the 1M sets a new benchmark for only-car, multi-purpose, real-life ability and desirability. It’s been a long time coming, but we’re delighted to say M’s new baby is more than worth the wait.


Topgear also picked the 1M over the Cayman R (track + road performance)

http://www.1addicts.com/forums/showt...=520636&page=5
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The 1 series M is the most badass, coolest, sickest BMW to debut since the 1988 M3. The E30 M3 finally has a successor. Please welcome the stupidly fast, wickedly tempered, awkwardly named, possibly perfect little son of a benchmark - Automobile Magazine, August 2011

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