NASA TT Class?

[Sauce]

Anyone in these forums have any experience prepping cars for NASA TT events? I don't even know what class a stock 135 would be in, I think TTB? I would love some guidance from someone that has done it. I have KW V3's right now which I know carry some serious points. Blah I just need some direction, the rules are so confusing at first!

Thanks!
-Alex

[yandy]

Originally Posted by Sauce

Anyone in these forums have any experience prepping cars for NASA TT events? I don't even know what class a stock 135 would be in, I think TTB? I would love some guidance from someone that has done it. I have KW V3's right now which I know carry some serious points. Blah I just need some direction, the rules are so confusing at first!

Thanks!
-Alex

Stock 135i starts out in TTC

Then you go through this DOC to add up the points

[Sauce]

Originally Posted by yandyr

Stock 135i starts out in TTC

Then you go through this DOC to add up the points

Is there any point penalty initially? I can't imagine there isn't. Have you run any tt's?

[yandy]

I haven't run yet, just prepping to do so, going through the process first of HPDE1-4 then TT.. HPDE3 at the moment, or what they call advance-intermediate. In no hurry, so I don't know about any initial point penalties, I've just been doing a bit of research on my own.

[Sauce]

Originally Posted by yandyr

I haven't run yet, just prepping to do so, going through the process first of HPDE1-4 then TT.. HPDE3 at the moment, or what they call advance-intermediate. In no hurry, so I don't know about any initial point penalties, I've just been doing a bit of research on my own.

Ahh ok, I'm just getting a plan for my car as well. I haven't started the HPDE process as of now as I just started to think about this today lol.

[fourtailpipes]

there's no short answer. start with this brief thread. pay particular attention to the second page, as it explains a misprint in the rules regarding the 135i. Greg G is the nasa tt national director. Also, read the rules.

[Sauce]

Originally Posted by fourtailpipes

there's no short answer. start with this brief thread. pay particular attention to the second page, as it explains a misprint in the rules regarding the 135i. Greg G is the nasa tt national director. Also, read the rules.

I was hoping you would chime in. So basically the only way to stay in TTC is to have a bone stock 135 with some R888's or NT01's etc in a max 245? If so I won't make that currently and would rather build the car up into a TTB car. In your opinion do you think the car can be competitive?

A little OT, are you an engineer of some sorts Tailpipes? You seem to have an immense technical knowledge on a lot of things. I trust and appreciate every time you throw your 2 cents in.

[fourtailpipes]

Originally Posted by Sauce

I was hoping you would chime in. So basically the only way to stay in TTC is to have a bone stock 135 with some R888's or NT01's etc in a max 245? If so I won't make that currently and would rather build the car up into a TTB car. In your opinion do you think the car can be competitive?

only no-points modifications can be made to stay in TTC, like camber plates, upgraded bushings, racing brake pads/fluid, modest software tuning (see appendix b of the rules for minimum adjusted weight/power ratio), and oil coolers. 245 nt01 tires are +6 points (-1 point for 245 size, +7 for r-compound). the fastest tire to have for TTC would be 225 r-compounds (-7 size, +7 compound) or 255 street tires like PSS (0 points on size and compound).

any point-carrying modification would bump you up to TTB where you'll be racing against some seriously fast e46 m3s (also TTC**), on wide slicks and real racing suspensions (because they aren't forced to spend their points on the FI penalty, LSDs, or upgraded control arms). it seems to me like the 135i needs to be reclassified. i know there are some guys on here racing in TTB... maybe they can chime in.

Originally Posted by Sauce

A little OT, are you an engineer of some sorts Tailpipes? You seem to have an immense technical knowledge on a lot of things. I trust and appreciate every time you throw your 2 cents in.

thanks, and no, i'm just a nerd.

[Sauce]

Originally Posted by fourtailpipes

only no-points modifications can be made to stay in TTC, like camber plates, upgraded bushings, racing brake pads/fluid, modest software tuning (see appendix b of the rules for minimum adjusted weight/power ratio), and oil coolers. 245 nt01 tires are +6 points (-1 point for 245 size, +7 for r-compound). the fastest tire to have for TTC would be 225 r-compounds (-7 size, +7 compound) or 255 street tires like PSS (0 points on size and compound).

any point-carrying modification would bump you up to TTB where you'll be racing against some seriously fast e46 m3s (also TTC**), on wide slicks and real racing suspensions (because they aren't forced to spend their points on the FI penalty, LSDs, or upgraded control arms). it seems to me like the 135i needs to be reclassified. i know there are some guys on here racing in TTB... maybe they can chime in.



thanks, and no, i'm just a nerd.

Yeah, I feel as if I wanted to get serious and set a goal for nationals or something (I'm dreaming at this point) I would need to get into like a c5 z06 or an e36 m3. But I think I am going to try and set the goal of running next season in TTC (I would hope), learn a lot, get faster then asses what I want to do from there. I really appreciate the detailed info, it definitely helped me a lot. I now have the dilemma of what I should do, de-mod my car to stay in TTC or leave it as is and get blown away in TTB. Maybe I can petition some sort of re-class, but I will worry about this more as it gets closer. For now I am going to do all the un-penalized mods like you said, cooling, bushings etc. The car really needs it anyway.

[fourtailpipes]

at the moment, it seems like the car to have for TTC is a honda s2k!

before you start planning for one class or another, make sure you're really familiar with the rules document... there's a lot in there, and it's all important. check out section 6.5, which discusses how you can request for your car to be given specific relief (reclassification) based on your actual weight/power ratio.

[Sauce]

Originally Posted by fourtailpipes

at the moment, it seems like the car to have for TTC is a honda s2k!

before you start planning for one class or another, make sure you're really familiar with the rules document... there's a lot in there, and it's all important. check out section 6.5, which discusses how you can request for your car to be given specific relief (reclassification) based on your actual weight/power ratio.

Don't even say that, A couple of weeks ago I had 3 buyers lined up for my car and an S2000 picked out to move into, but ended up wussing out.

[fourtailpipes]

i wouldn't prefer to own an s2k... it just appears to have more favorable treatment in the rules. if you were reclassed, that could possibly change.

[Sauce]

Originally Posted by fourtailpipes

i wouldn't prefer to own an s2k... it just appears to have more favorable treatment in the rules. if you were reclassed, that could possibly change.

Yeah, I ultimately decided that too I guess, although if I could do it all over again.. I tend to be extremely weird with cars and I LOVE s2k's. Have you driven one? It's tough not to have a childish grin on your face, they also are stupid fast on a track w/ very minimal modification and parts are cheap.

[fourtailpipes]

i thought i'd update this thread, as over the past couple months i've been going through all kinds of painful exchanges with nasa about tt classification of the 135i. i inquired about reclassification, but the TT director is quite hard to pin down, and never seems to answer the question i'm asking. ive gotten enough delayed, nonsensical and impertinent responses from him to simply give up. he offered that i could essentially trade a single asterisk (7 points) for entering at a minimum weight of 3545! obviously this is no help whatsoever, as the car is already nearly 600 pounds overweight according to the minimum weight/power ratio in the rules.

the tt director claims that a national championship can be won with a 135i in TTB, though he failed to substantiate that claim when i pointed out that a TTB setup for my car wouldn't even include an LSD, when i have friends in TTB (holding track records) driving e46 M3s and Z3 M shoes with less weight, more power, wider tires, better suspensions, and obviously limited slip diffs. i'm really not at all impressed with the level of attention or thought he obviously (didn't) put into my reclassification questions. i don't want to discourage people from racing TT, but unless you have endless patience, don't bother trying to have your car reclassified, as you'll just slip into a confusing quagmire of neglectful responses by some very inaccessible and uninformative individuals.

[dlong82]

Working on similar issues. Ran my 1M in TTB at Hastings, NE about a month ago. Stock. With TTB plus 19 points (*=7, *=7, Forced induction=5), you can do nothing. I haven't tried done the dyno formula route yet.

Some observations. Don't try it on stock, full tread tires. Yes, it was fun, but not fast. I only got 1 and 1/2 sessions. First one nanny on. Second one, MDM mode, about 4 laps and the charge pipe broke - it did not come off, it broke. FYI, had 9,000 miles on it and first time on track. The car could run with the TTA M3s on the straights, but I had to park and turn in the corners.
My conclusion; get good tires (e.g., Hoosier) and go to TTA or drop to 245 Hankook RS3 (shaved) and stay in TTB. Don't know what I try, yet.

[jbass524]

I don't know if this helps but at Sears Point a stock 135 would need to run in the very low 1:50s to be competitive in TTC. It definitely needs to be reclassified as I can't see Sebastian Loeb doing this.

My E36 M3 in stock form is TTD but there is just no way to get it competitive with other TTD car makes/models so I went TTC.

Don't know anything about TTB.

[fourtailpipes]

Originally Posted by jbass524

I don't know if this helps but at Sears Point a stock 135 would need to run in the very low 1:50s to be competitive in TTC. It definitely needs to be reclassified as I can't see Sebastian Loeb doing this.

My E36 M3 in stock form is TTD but there is just no way to get it competitive with other TTD car makes/models so I went TTC.

Don't know anything about TTB.

reclassification is unlikely; especially considering that the TT director just inexplicably changed the base classification from TTC* to TTC**. apparently the 135s in TT weren't losing by a large enough margin. he neglected to put the change in the published rulebook, but claims that his new classification of TTC** is enforceable effective immediately.

i wonder how many of the 135s currently racing in TT are even aware/compliant with this new classification.

[mid-corner fun]

Frankly, NASA's FI penalty for the n54/n55 and the stock weight of our cars complicate things considerably. I'm 54 points over base, smack middle in TTA territory and nowhere near as competitive as the Z06s that rule there. Not a 135 but you get the point.

Has anyone looked at the weight formulas for re-classification? Otherwise I agree, reclassification is unlikely.

[fourtailpipes]

Originally Posted by PeterM1

Frankly, NASA's FI penalty for the n54/n55 and the stock weight of our cars complicate things considerably. I'm 54 points over base, smack middle in TTA territory and nowhere near as competitive as the Z06s that rule there. Not a 135 but you get the point.

Has anyone looked at the weight formulas for re-classification? Otherwise I agree, reclassification is unlikely.

i tried to glean some information from the TT duhrector about the methodology he uses to calculate reclassifications, but i didn't get any useful info out of him.

the case i submitted was that i wanted to enter my car in TT without any engine software (to preserve my factory warranty/maintenance). because software is points-free, but you pay the FI penalty anyway, my actual weight/power calculation came out exactly 599.25 pounds overweight for TTB, while my points assessment came out to TTC+20, so i was in TTB by one point with a weight/power ratio that would frankly be quite poor even for TTC. in my opinion, this is the paragon example of a car that should be reclassified... i only needed reclassification by one point to enter in TTC where i would only have been "quite" overweight (instead of "absurdly" overweight for TTB). after numerous messages from him which made literally no sense whatsoever (pretty sure he didn't even read my question the first couple times around) his only solution was to reduce my points to get me in TTC while further increasing my weight.

so in summary, his methodology is probably a mystery even to himself. if that's not a case that warrants to have one single point knocked off, reclassifications must be based on the number of times his cats visit the litter box on a particular day divided by the number of times he's changed its litter, with an adjustment for feline weight above or below the initial assessment of 13 pounds per cat.

[jbass524]

My TTC E36 M3 is capable of 1:50s at Sears Point. I know a stock 135 can't come close to that. It would most likely be a 2:00 car. How can the 135 be TTB?

[fourtailpipes]

Originally Posted by jbass524

My TTC E36 M3 is capable of 1:50s at Sears Point. I know a stock 135 can't come close to that. It would most likely be a 2:00 car. How can the 135 be TTB?

a recent experiment revealed that i'm about 10 seconds off the TTB pace at njmp lightning. FTD was a e46m with motons and big slicks. how am i supposed to compete with that when i'm on KW V1s and 255 star specs with more weight, less power, worse aero, higher cg, and no lsd?

i have no clue, but the tt director seems to think the 135i should be winning national championships in ttb. yes, he actually said that