Track Performance--overemphasized?

[Solo_M_Tech]

What ive noticed about Nurbergring lap times and the people who drive it. It doesn't matter what car they buy, they are all modded to serve a specific purpose. The fastest lap they can drive and remain safe. The Nurbergring is a test of an entire car, mechanically, and driveablity/comfort. If any standard of comparison is made, the Ring should be it. Not specifically lap times, but everything should be included.

[mrvco]

It only matters to those that need it to matter.

Who cares if the Cadillac WTF is faster on the 'Ring than a BMW Mx with expensive tires and a professional driver at the wheel.

If you're throwing out 'Ring times to justify your purchase decision, then I hope you're a professional driver with a big tire budget and posting videos to YouTube of your 'Ring times is how you put food on the table.

Otherwise it's pretty weak sauce to rely on for justifying your purchase decision (to yourself or anyone else).

[Solo_M_Tech]

The lap times reflect the engineering. faster lap times do not always make a better car. James May of Top Gear has stated many times that companies who develop cars with fast Ring laps times in mind tend to ruin good cars with stiff suspension an chassis. Im not saying the lap time is the most important, im saying as a basis of comparison, the ring is a perfect testing place. Manufacturers tend to worry too much about the lap time though in order to increase sales. That's the issue.

[ShocknAwe]

Lap times aren't as overemphasized as 0-60 times. I'd love to see 0-60 times thrown out of marketing. Who cares!

If you want to talk about straight line speed, then 1/4 mile times are the minimum standard. Really at today's automotive tech and engineering level, we should be talking 1/2 mile times. The cars really are that fast.

If they are using 0-60 as a daily driving "quickness" factor, then they should use 20-50 and 50-80 in gear times. 20-50 to show acceleration for in city driving, and 50-80 for highway. Much more representative figures for comparison.

Using 'Ring times is pretty funny too since it only measures the motorsport performance of the car. If that's all folks buy them for then I suppose that's fine. It really does have its' uses though. What I would like to see is for companies to use the ring to make sure the car is comfortable even when blasting around a brutal track like that, and to ensure the car can perform at peak output for that long.

The biggest thing I get sad about when seeing all companies using the 'Ring as an absolute standard, is not the compromise of performance over comfort. The biggest thing that absolutely BREAKS MY HEART is the compromise of performance over fun and engagement. Switch the hydraulic power steering for electric to gain a few extra HP and save weight, change that manual transmission for a dual clutch gearbox to speed up shifting, change the suspension from standard gas or oil compression to computer controlled adaptive so the car stays flat and neutral for the driver, change from RWD to AWD so the car chooses where the power goes... the list goes on.

Each and every one of those changes takes a little bit of control away from the driver and as a result kills a little bit of the soul of the car and reduces the fun and engagement of driving it.

That's what irritates me about the ring.

[Solo_M_Tech]

Originally Posted by ShocknAwe

Lap times aren't as overemphasized as 0-60 times. I'd love to see 0-60 times thrown out of marketing. Who cares!

If you want to talk about straight line speed, then 1/4 mile times are the minimum standard. Really at today's automotive tech and engineering level, we should be talking 1/2 mile times. The cars really are that fast.

If they are using 0-60 as a daily driving "quickness" factor, then they should use 20-50 and 50-80 in gear times. 20-50 to show acceleration for in city driving, and 50-80 for highway. Much more representative figures for comparison.

Using 'Ring times is pretty funny too since it only measures the motorsport performance of the car. If that's all folks buy them for then I suppose that's fine. It really does have its' uses though. What I would like to see is for companies to use the ring to make sure the car is comfortable even when blasting around a brutal track like that, and to ensure the car can perform at peak output for that long.

The biggest thing I get sad about when seeing all companies using the 'Ring as an absolute standard, is not the compromise of performance over comfort. The biggest thing that absolutely BREAKS MY HEART is the compromise of performance over fun and engagement. Switch the hydraulic power steering for electric to gain a few extra HP and save weight, change that manual transmission for a dual clutch gearbox to speed up shifting, change the suspension from standard gas or oil compression to computer controlled adaptive so the car stays flat and neutral for the driver, change from RWD to AWD so the car chooses where the power goes... the list goes on.

Each and every one of those changes takes a little bit of control away from the driver and as a result kills a little bit of the soul of the car and reduces the fun and engagement of driving it.

That's what irritates me about the ring.

I'm not arguing your point, and i agree with alot of what you say. The Ring is in no way responsible for the changes you describe. Manufacturers compete for the best performance. ///M cars are still RWD. The move to electronic power steering was to make the car more flexible as a track car/ daily driver. It's not all about lap times. The ring is almost a durability tool. If the car can survive multiple at limits laps, and still function normal, then that's it's best use. Alot of people like to complain about the Ring. I've personally spent the last two years driving it in my spare time. It is truly a test of every aspect of a car. I'll use the 135i's brake caliper issue as an example. Had bmw tested those brakes at the nurbergring during developement, they would have changed the piston material to make it more durable. Unless you've driven the Ring, you'd never really know.

Edit: 0-60 times are pointless, I agree 100 percent. Standing mile times are an awesome straight line performance test. That would be sweet! battle for 1 mile time and speed!

[mrvco]

I do love the fact that manufacturers are using the 'Ring and other road courses to push and develop their production cars. I also like the rivalry aspect between manufacturers using what are supposedly production cars.

What gets tiring is anyone insisting that Car A is superior to and should be bought instead of Car B because Professional Driver A drove his employer's Car A x-seconds faster than Professional Driver B drove his employer's Car B around a particular track on different days under what may or may not be similar conditions.

[Solo_M_Tech]

Originally Posted by mrvco

I do love the fact that manufacturers are using the 'Ring and other road courses to push and develop their production cars. I also like the rivalry aspect between manufacturers using what are supposedly production cars.

What gets tiring is anyone insisting that Car A is superior to and should be bought instead of Car B because Professional Driver A drove his employer's Car A x-seconds faster than Professional Driver B drove his employer's Car B around a particular track on different days under what may or may not be similar conditions.

I completely agree. They compete, we reap the rewards in the form of better cars!