Question: Ayrton Senna throttle blipping - Honda NSX @ Suzuka

[Lucky1]

What is Mr. Senna doing around 1:36 with his right foot on the throttle? It looks like he is rapidly blipping it in gear around the turn. Is this some sort of throttle input technique to bring the car around or keep it balanced through the turn? Is this a generally accepted or commonly used technique in racing?

Link to YouTube video

[Lucky1]

I found a similar thread on another forum that answers the question. But I'm curious what other 1er track experts think if anyone still wants to weigh in.

http://www.lotustalk.com/forums/f100...cussion-86768/

[jkoral]

Originally Posted by Lucky1

I found a similar thread on another forum that answers the question. But I'm curious what other 1er track experts think if anyone still wants to weigh in.

http://www.lotustalk.com/forums/f100...cussion-86768/

Thanks for the great link, especially the Schumacher video -- I had never seen it. Would love to see more comparisons of driver's throttle and steering positions through corners.

(I also think this is one of the big reasons Schumacher struggled so much in his comeback. Current cars/tires require a different style and it took time to adapt to that).

[Focusedintntions]

Everybody has their own driving style and techniques for controlling a car on teh edge....what works for one may not work for the other. It all comes down to how a driver feels the car.

[Dackelone]

Yup... "heel & toe-ing". This video of Walter Röhrl back in the day is just amazing!...

[Focusedintntions]

Dack, I don't think anybody was referring the to shifting technique...but more so the throttle application mid corner when shifting is complete.

[jkoral]

Originally Posted by Dackelone

Yup... "heel & toe-ing". This video of Walter Röhrl back in the day is just amazing!...

Not heel and toeing (and blipping the throttle with the clutch engaged), he's talking about the abrupt on/off the throttle in the corner after the shifting has occurred.

Johnny Hebert mentions Senna in this video (from the lotus thread above). He mentions how Senna was known for this rapid throttle on/off in the middle of the corner (as most drivers he knows control the car with the throttle), but Schumacher has a different style.

See Hebert at 1:15 and then the end of the video for a comparison of throttle position (and speed) of Herbert vs Schumacher going through Bridge corner at Silverstone.

[Dackelone]

Ohh... I got that wrong, sorry. This is very interesting stuff with the throttle. Senna seemed to have no trouble driving a car at 11/10th's.

[Lucky1]

Originally Posted by Dackelone

Yup... "heel & toe-ing". This video of Walter Röhrl back in the day is just amazing!...

Oh my God that is some incredible foot work!

Yes I was talking about Senna's throttle blipping through the corners but he also does some fantastic heel-toe in what I've heard are Italian loafers

There's another video on You Tube of him testing the NSX in full race suit. I get the impression the video I linked to was for the press. Man, I wish I could do that.

[int2str]

Like Purple, I've always been taught smooth is fast. I've inquired on other forums about this and somebody made a good point:

In 1988 (not sure when this video was recorded) Senna was still driving the turbocharged McLaren MP4/4. We complain about lag on our modern cars, but you can probably imagine that lag was much worse in a ~1000hp F1 car at lower revs. As a result, Senna used this throttle blipping technique to keep the revs up and the turbos primed mid-corner.

There is a small hint in favour of this argument at the end of the NSX video. Despite the NSX-R being naturally aspirated, Senna says at the end of the interview that "boost very good from the bottom". I'm sure that was just a mental slip, but could be a hint to his mindset at the time.

[The HACK]

There are two schools of thoughts on what to do with your hands and feet at the extreme limit of adhesion.

One, you keep your hands perfectly steady, and use your foot to "throttle steer" the car out of a turn.

Two, you keep your foot perfectly steady, and use your hands to manage the slip angle.

The REALLY good drivers combine both technique and, at times you'll see them see-sawing at the steering wheel to manage slip, and at times you'll see (or hear) them modulating the throttle rapidly to steer the car. It's the complete opposite of common sense* (throttle to manage slip, while hands and steering wheel to steer the car), but in reality, driving at its best is COUNTERINTUITIVE.

So, with real good drivers (not just your average everyday A+ students at HPDEs...I'm talking about guys that ends up on the podium regularly), you'll often see them do one or the other but not both at the same time. If you look at the video, you'll see some spots where Senna see-saws at the steering wheel briefly, then back to holding it steady and blipping the throttle, then back and forth. I doubt that he's unfamiliar with the chassis, he's driving at his 10/10th, which means WAY past just about everyone's ability to drive a car on this forum...

* On a car that is rear wheel driven and front wheel steering (like the NSX, and our beloved BMWs), the gas pedal controls the rear (oversteer) and the steering wheel controls the front (understeer). A REALLY good driver would/could induce either one with their hand and feet at will, and in fact, any car, when driven at its absolute maximum ability, should live right on the knife's edge between understeer and oversteer at all times.

[pixelblue]

* On a car that is rear wheel driven and front wheel steering (like the NSX, and our beloved BMWs), the gas pedal controls the rear (oversteer) and the steering wheel controls the front (understeer). A REALLY good driver would/could induce either one with their hand and feet at will, and in fact, any car, when driven at its absolute maximum ability, should live right on the knife's edge between understeer and oversteer at all times.

Originally Posted by Purple Derple

Where did you learn this?

spot on! that's how pro's do it

[pixelblue]

Originally Posted by Purple Derple

You're kidding right.

which part of that statement do you have a problem with, first part or second part?

[pixelblue]

so you're saying that I'm talking out of my butt too? well pardon us for not recognizing your vast and deep knowledge on the field. would you care to enlighten us or do you just have a hunch we're talking out of our butt?

[pixelblue]

first of all I don't need to sit here and listen to a bunch of armchair theorist about how a car should or should not behave at it's limits. I actually take my car to the race track every month and have first hand experience. so unless you can do one better and tell us you're a pro driver and you know more about this subject than say me, then I would digress. until then, if you find yourself in a disagreement with another forum member I suggest using better tact than suggesting the other person is talking out of his ass especially if you just joined up. know what I mean? welcome aboard...

[fourtailpipes]

i do not intend to enter a dog in this fight, but FYI i know purple derple has a very respectable driving resume; beyond the casual HPDE level.

[pixelblue]

Originally Posted by Purple Derple

Alright, good that you are here to defend your forum buddy, but do you actually agree with what he is saying? Is this how your drive your car on track once a month? Do you control understeer with your hands and oversteer with the throttle? Do you see-saw at the steering wheel? Does your car feel like it is on a knifes edge when you're cornering? Do you do any of the things he wrote in his post when you're driving at the absolute maximum of the car's ability?

If you think I'm wrong tell me why. Please don't tell me I'm not worthy because of my post count that really makes no difference.

yes, yes and yes. you can check out my youtube channel. link in my signature

[pixelblue]

you know I don't mean to get into an argument with you but I still haven't heard your counter argument to any of this. all I have heard is "you really believe that?" or "he's speaking out of his butt". what is your point anyway? what do YOU believe?

[GaryS]

I also don't want to argue with anyone, and I'm just an intermediate HPDE guy so I don't know anything about it anyway.

But Purple Derple's question to The Hack was "Where did you learn this?" I remember he posted this, which elaborates and kind of answers where he got it from. Hope that helps in some way.

Originally Posted by The HACK

We're about to take this thread off topic but...

I'll have to find telemetry data to support my claim, but if I'm correct, you'll see speed and lateral G ramp up fairly smoothly, but once it gets to the limit of the tire's grip, you'll find a really good data acquisition graph to show "vibrations" or what I called jaggedness soon after turn-in, or after the suspension sets. I recall someone relaying a story about Ayrton Senna, during the "turbocharged" 4 cylinder era, his engineers were looking at his throttle telemetry and was puzzled to find that through certain turns it looked like he was modulating the throttle very rapidly, and when the engineers asked him about it, he said that if he had gotten off or stayed off throttle, then the turbo would take a while to spool up on the exit and he would lose precious time exiting the turn. So in order to keep the turbo spooled up, he "jabs" the throttle repeatedly to ease the acceleration load while keeping the revs and exhaust pressure up to keep the turbo loaded.

Seemed counter-intuitive at the time, until I took a ride with a friend that was driving in the Speed World Challenge at the time. I noticed that at the exit of slow speed turns, he would "see-saw" at the steering wheel. I was a bit puzzled, since throughout my entire career we were told "smooth is fast," and here he is, the prior year's SWC rookie of the year, at one time my instructor, who repeated that mantra to me before, doing exactly the opposite. So I asked him about it once we pitted the car, and he said, basically, at the limit of the tire's available grip, you can temporarily increase the amount of lateral grip available to you by straightening out the wheel a little bit and then return it back to the previous "set" position, and if you do this rapidly in very small increments, you can continue to keep the suspension "set" without unloading the weight of the car, but decrease the lateral load on the tire enough to keep it from "losing grip" by going PAST the optimum slip angle of the tires.

So perhaps the way I explained it in the previous post does not describe the process in the correct manner, but the basic concept is the same. You can prevent either end of the car from losing grip, or going into "understeer" or "oversteer," by sort of "chopping" at the wheels a little bit at a time. But you must do this just right before the tire transitions from static to kinetic grip, otherwise the benefit of it to "going fast" is all but eliminated once you're in kinetic friction (because the act of straightening out the tires will only bring it back from kinetic friction coefficient to static, rather than move that boundary to a higher speed threshold).

But, regardless, in order to execute said maneuver, you must be able to FEEL the car right before either end of the tire looses grip, and do the see-sawing of the wheel before the car pushes or starts a spin. And that ability comes from having done a tone of wet skidpad or karting IMO, since both will give you more opportunity to explore that boundary and find ways to expand it without wadding up your car. If you can feel the level of grip on the contact patch through your hands (for the front wheels) and your @ss (for the rear wheels), and you can accurately predict when either end is going to lose grip, then you can safely try and see if you can retain more speed from turn-in to exit by carrying more speed into the turn and using your hands to "add grip*."

*Using your hands to add grip is still the most accurate and easiest way to visualize what I'm talking about, even though it technically and logically does not make sense.

[GaryS]

Originally Posted by Purple Derple

Did he post that in this thread? I'm sorry if he did I never saw it.

It was a different thread. You posted in that thread too, but way before him. He hangs at e90post 3-series forum and only posts here once in a while.

[Focusedintntions]

Originally Posted by Purple Derple

Haha oh yeah that thread. I think that is why everyone here hates me. Sorry but everything the HACK wrote in that thread is crazy talk as well. I wish he would get in here and join this discussion I don't like just ripping up his words without him. That guy Sauce is speaking truths tho.

Hence why anything written in a forum should be taken with a grain of salt. Read it, process it, think about it...then go out drive and come up with your own conclusions. In driving everybody has their own style and has techniques that do or don't work for them. We should all strive to develop our own abilities within what is comfortable for us as long as we're still being safe.

[pixelblue]

Originally Posted by Purple Derple

Haha oh yeah that thread. I think that is why everyone here hates me. Sorry but everything the HACK wrote in that thread is crazy talk as well. I wish he would get in here and join this discussion I don't like just ripping up his words without him. That guy Sauce is speaking truths tho.

first you say this
"My guess is he's never driven this car before and doesn't know what it is capable of so he's doing this to drive fast with no practice. Truthfully I don't think it is a fast way to drive it is way too abrupt with the balance of the car when we all know smooth is fast. Now everyone can tell me I don't know what I'm talking about because I am being critical of Senna."

then you say this
"I don't believe any of it to be true. The whole thing. I am not here to argue I just hope people on this forum don't believe what the HACK has written because it it comes straight from his butt. It sounds very authoritative for sure, but it isn't right."

hint, hint...