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      12-31-2014, 06:09 PM   #23
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The CSL rotors certainly look good. The small increase in diameter will have what is likely a negligible effect on brake bias. In fact with track tires you can expect a bit more forward weight transfer so it may even be a good thing. The adapter bracket will have to move the calliper diametrically outward by 3.5 mm and laterally outboard by 21.6 mm. The OE calliper is just wide enough to accept the wider CSL rotor (but you will lose any space you had for say Ti shims). I haven't drawn up the front calliper geometry so I can't be sure it fits with the Arc 8 wheel, but the clearance looks credible by eye. The directional vanes on the CSL rotors and the semi-floating design will probably pump more air through the vanes, which is good, but the thermal mass of the rotor is likely only slightly more than the OE rotors, owing to the bigger vanes. Going to the CSL rotors looks like a lot of work for what is likely a small performance gain.

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Those that have spoken up about fade should clarify if they mean pad fade or fluid fade. Having tried various other fluids in my race car without satisfaction, personally I am sold on Castrol SRF as the magic bullet for fluid fade - I just don't see the point in wasting time with anything else. At the track I am using OE rotors, Hawk DTC70/60 pads with Ti shims shims at the front, in addition to custom stainless shims front and rear. I have had no issues with fluid fade, nor with pad fade, and pad life is reasonable. I have F30 front brake dust shields but am not convinced they offer any significant cooling benefit as they are still fully blocked by the wheel even with their larger scoop.

For a serious dollar upgrade to make sense to me, I would want to be able to change the pads without removing the calliper. I can see why BMW goes with the fixed-bridge design as it is strong and stiff, and for a street car, pad changes happen infrequently enough that the effort to remove the calliper is a non-issue. But for a tracked car, that effort is a major inconvenience.

Anyone seriously considering a DIY brake change should have a look at "High-Performance Brake Systems Design, Selection and Installation", by James Walker Jr. If you don't want to mess up your brake bias, a bit of math up front is a really good idea, and this book explains the issues well.

Last edited by fe1rx; 01-02-2015 at 09:11 PM..
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      12-31-2014, 10:09 PM   #24
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^ Interesting that you feel the Castrol has remedied your braking issues. Fluid fade (soft pedal) has been my #1 braking issue with this car. Will look into SRF replacement.
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      12-31-2014, 11:30 PM   #25
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In my case, Ive been experiencing brake pad fade due to overheating (loss of braking power). Pedal has been firm and fine with Motul RBF600. I might still try SRF next season, even if twice the price (+$30/500ml)...

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      01-01-2015, 07:43 AM   #26
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I am running the following on my E87 130i (weekend/track car):

Calipers: OEM 135i
Rotors: OEM 135i
Pads: Ferodo DS2500
Fluid: Motul RBF600
Lines: HEL
Dust Shields: OEM F30 (to be installed this weekend)
Other: Racing Brake Stainless Steel Piston Rebuild Kit (w/ High-temp silicone dust boots)
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      01-01-2015, 08:17 AM   #27
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fe1rx View Post
The CSL rotors certainly look good. The small increase in diameter will have what is likely a negligible effect on brake bias. In fact with track tires you can expect a bit more forward weight transfer so it may even be a good thing.
Thanks for your valuable input as allways. Ive been considering a solid 2-piece rotor as my next replacement to help with heat dissipation.

The heat problem removes the confidence level I have in my slightly modded 135i especially at tracks with several hard braking zones.

The brake pads which I have tried from worse to best fade/wear resistance are:
  1. Cool Carbon
  2. Stock
  3. Carbotech XP10
  4. PFC 08
  5. Project Mu Club Racer.

The best dual duty pads (on the car now) are the PFC08. They make no noise on the streets, and resist fade on longer tracks with enough straight line speed to cool the brakes.

The best fade resistant pads were the PMU Club Racers. They started crumbling after a few hard track days and were noisy when cold.

Before throwing too much money at the problem, I will look into forcing more air at the center of the rotors. Looks like modification of the stock 135i bumper brake ducts, as proposed in this thread by "3002 tii" are in order!

Quote:
Originally Posted by fe1rx View Post
The adapter bracket will have to move the calliper diametrically outward by 3.5 mm and laterally outboard by 21.6 mm. The OE calliper is just wide enough to accept the wider CSL rotor (but you will lose any space you had for say Ti shims). I haven't drawn up the front calliper geometry so I can't be sure it fits with the Arc 8 wheel, but the clearance looks credible by eye. The directional vanes on the CSL rotors and the semi-floating design will probably pump more air through the vanes, which is good, but the thermal mass of the rotor is likely only slightly more than the OE rotors, owing to the bigger vanes. Going to the CSL rotors looks like a lot of work for what is likely a small performance gain.
The 0.5mm thin Ti shims Ive been using, in addition to stock backing plates have done little to reduce the brake pad issue. Sometimes, I wonder if they are making the problem worse by isolating the heat transfer, and thus creating greater build up of heat in the pads...

I do not intend on changing my style 261 rear wheel square setup (18x8.5 ET52 with 10 mm spacer in the front). The wider wheels (+1" over stock 18x7.5 ET49) are probably reducing the air flow too.

As my next rotor replacement, Im looking at getting an affordable 2-piece rotor with a vane design that will help with cooling, solid enough for track abuse, will not require a caliper adapter, will not grate the brake pads (drilled). At the moement, Im still running stock OE plain rotors that have 70,000Kms and after two solid seasons of tracking. The front rotors have developped small surface cracks, but are still are thick, solid and not warped.

Quote:
Originally Posted by fe1rx View Post
Those that have spoken up about fade should clarify if they mean pad fade or fluid fade. Having tried various other fluids in my race car without satisfaction, personally I am sold on Castrol SRF as the magic bullet for fluid fade - I just don't see the point in wasting time with anything else. At the track I am using OE rotors, Hawk DTC70/60 pads with Ti shims shims at the front, in addition to custom stainless shims front and rear. I have had no issues with fluid fade, nor with pad fade, and pad life is reasonable. I have F20 front brake dust shields but am not convinced they offer any significant cooling benefit as they are still fully blocked by the wheel even with their larger scoop.
Agreed. Not completely sold on the F30 plates that Ive been using either. I plan to remove them completely in my quest to cool the rotors further...

Quote:
Originally Posted by fe1rx View Post
For a serious dollar upgrade to make sense to me, I would want to be able to change the pads without removing the calliper. I can see why BMW goes with the fixed-bridge design as it is strong and stiff, and for a street car, pad changes happen infrequently enough that the effort to remove the calliper is a non-issue. But for a tracked car, that effort is a major inconvenience.
Agreed. Im debating whether it makes sense to rebuild the OE calipers with RB stainless steel pistons + high temp seals + 2-piece rotors + SS lines ... versus moving to a front BBK ...

Quote:
Originally Posted by fe1rx View Post
Anyone seriously considering a DIY brake change should have a look at "High-Performance Brake Systems Design, Selection and Installation", by James Walker Jr. If you don't want to mess up your brake bias, a bit of math up front is a really good idea, and this book explains the issues well.
Going with a front BBK versus both front + rear, will surely change the front to rear bias. I would assume that most users have not given this much thought. The other limitation is ending up with a limited selection of brake pads for the specific BBK you buy.
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Last edited by dcaron9999; 01-01-2015 at 10:44 AM..
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      01-01-2015, 08:18 AM   #28
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Quote:
Originally Posted by evolution42 View Post
I am running the following on my E87 130i (weekend/track car):

Calipers: OEM 135i
Rotors: OEM 135i
Pads: Ferodo DS2500
Fluid: Motul RBF600
Lines: HEL
Dust Shields: OEM F30 (to be installed this weekend)
Other: Racing Brake Stainless Steel Piston Rebuild Kit (w/ High-temp silicone dust boots)
The F30 plates will not make much of a difference - they have not solved my heat issue.
Do you run in the advanced run groups at the track?

How do you like the RB kit? Was this the most important step in reducing your brake fade issue?
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Last edited by dcaron9999; 06-02-2015 at 09:58 AM..
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      01-01-2015, 01:07 PM   #29
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dcaron9999 View Post
The 0.5mm thin Ti shims Ive been using, in addition to stock backing plates have done little to reduce the brake pad issue. Sometimes, I wonder if they are making the problem worse by isolating the heat transfer, and thus creating greater build up of heat in the pads...
You are absolutely correct on this point. Ti shims reduce heat input into the calliper and thus reduce the pad's ability to shed heat. Your pads run hotter as a result. This probably doesn't affect the rotor temperature but does challenge your pads.

I saw a clear demonstration of this in my race car. 1 Ti shim was great in terms of saving my piston boots from heat damage so I figured 2 would be better. With 1 shim I had no brake pad fade. With 2 I immediately began to see pad fade in heavy braking zones with the same pad.

So in saving the fluid and piston boots you are running your pads hotter and need a higher rated pad as a result.
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      01-01-2015, 08:17 PM   #30
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Going with a front BBK versus both front + rear, will surely change the front to rear bias. I would assume that most users have not given this much thought. The other limitation is ending up with a limited selection of brake pads for the specific BBK you buy.[/QUOTE]

The front/ rear bias question is one I have been wondering about too. Have seen other folks (on other platforms) use a 2 piece rotor and more aggressive pad in the rear to help balance the front to rear with a front BBK. That would probably be a question for the BBK manufacturer (Stoptech, Racing Brake).
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      01-01-2015, 11:13 PM   #31
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lakefront View Post
The front/ rear bias question is one I have been wondering about too. Have seen other folks (on other platforms) use a 2 piece rotor and more aggressive pad in the rear to help balance the front to rear with a front BBK. That would probably be a question for the BBK manufacturer (Stoptech, Racing Brake).
The factors affecting the bias are:

1) effective piston area BBK vs OE. If the replacement front caliper has more piston area than OE it will shift the bias forward. This is by no means a certain thing, because the pistons could be (in fact should be) smaller, but the math is simple if you know the piston diameters.

2) effective rotor radius BBK vs OE. If the radius to the center of the pad is increased, so too is the front bias. Since we are talking a BBK, this can be assumed to be true. Again the math is simple, but you need to know both the rotor diameter and the pad shape.

3) friction coefficient of the front pads vs rear pads. Typically, but not always the same. The common Hawk DTC 70/60 Fr/Rr combination increases front bias, which is not inappropriate within reason when using sticky tires, because higher decel rates produce more forward weight transfer.

4) front vs rear hydraulic pressure, which is typically controlled by a mechanical brake proportioning valve. That said, the 135i appears to have electronic brake force proportioning, which within unknown limits should handle some changes in the inherent system bias. James Walker Jr. describes the whole matter pretty well here:

http://stoptech.com/technical-suppor...tioning-valves

As a last resort ABS will modulate the brakes to fix a severe bias problem, but this is not optimal. Ideally your Big Front Brakes should have less total effective piston area proportional to their greater effective rotor radius so that you don't muck up the balance.
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      01-02-2015, 12:06 AM   #32
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I guess what I was saying (without explaining it as well as you did) if a front BBK increases #1 and 2, perhaps switching the pads that you mentioned from rear to front would bring some of the bias back to the rear (Hawk 60f/70r). See #3.
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      01-02-2015, 02:15 AM   #33
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fe1rx View Post
The factors affecting the bias are:

1) effective piston area BBK vs OE. If the replacement front caliper has more piston area than OE it will shift the bias forward. This is by no means a certain thing, because the pistons could be (in fact should be) smaller, but the math is simple if you know the piston diameters.

2) effective rotor radius BBK vs OE. If the radius to the center of the pad is increased, so too is the front bias. Since we are talking a BBK, this can be assumed to be true. Again the math is simple, but you need to know both the rotor diameter and the pad shape.

3) friction coefficient of the front pads vs rear pads. Typically, but not always the same. The common Hawk DTC 70/60 Fr/Rr combination increases front bias, which is not inappropriate within reason when using sticky tires, because higher decel rates produce more forward weight transfer.

4) front vs rear hydraulic pressure, which is typically controlled by a mechanical brake proportioning valve. That said, the 135i appears to have electronic brake force proportioning, which within unknown limits should handle some changes in the inherent system bias. James Walker Jr. describes the whole matter pretty well here:

http://stoptech.com/technical-suppor...tioning-valves

As a last resort ABS will modulate the brakes to fix a severe bias problem, but this is not optimal. Ideally your Big Front Brakes should have less total effective piston area proportional to their greater effective rotor radius so that you don't muck up the balance.
Looks like bias can be altered via coding, although I wouldn't recommend it.
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      01-11-2015, 06:35 PM   #34
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dcaron9999 View Post

Yesterday, in an effort to determine whether brake duct flexible piping could be fitted and routed from my front bumper vents to the center of my rotors, I lifted the car up and turned the steering from left to right. Their is absolutely no room in there without pinching and severing the flexible tube...

After two intensive lapping seasons (April to November), the stock 135i caliper seals and pistons also need to be refreshed.

In order of preference due to limited budget, Im wondering whether to get:

#1 - Removing the dust shields completely.

#2 - Russian made adapters (Tro-Nik member) + front stock BMW CSL ZCP drilled rotors.

#3 - ECS Tuning 2-piece rotors with RB (RacingBrakes) caliper seal+ piston rebuild kit + SS brake lines

#4 - RB 2-piece rotors with caliper seal+ piston rebuild kit + SS brake lines

#5- Entry level BBK ...
In order to install brake ducting without limiting steering and possible damage from the tires, the duct must be routed aft then around the shock with a U-turn (like on Berk's race car). A 2" duct should clear everything easily between the hub and shock. I plan to squeeze a 2.5" in there, which will cause slight deformation but with little concern. There's also not enough room to route piping into the existing duct hole in the wheel well that leads to the front of the front bumper. The ducts must go through a more inward route, either by creating a new hole (as Berk did) or attach to wide-mouthed vacuum heads mounted below the car.

3002 tii's thread on DIY brake ducting is a good reference to start from...

Forego #3, reason below. I plan to go with #2 and #4 minus RB rotors. One guy I know is running this combo successfully without issue. And he is one of the fastest 135i's on the track.

Quote:
Originally Posted by 2PUTT View Post
just a heads up...i've read in the past that the ECS rotors have been known to warp easily. i personally have not used them but this has been reported in the past.
After several events, they have not warped and held up surprisingly without any visible cracking. However, I cannot recommend them for the track, especially if you run in the more advanced groups. I experience just as much fade if not more than the stock rotors. The only real benefit to these is the reduction of unsprung weight which is noticeably felt around corners.

They look great and will continue to use them but only on the street.

Quote:
Originally Posted by dcaron9999 View Post

...

The 0.5mm thin Ti shims Ive been using, in addition to stock backing plates have done little to reduce the brake pad issue. Sometimes, I wonder if they are making the problem worse by isolating the heat transfer, and thus creating greater build up of heat in the pads...

...

Agreed. Not completely sold on the F30 plates that Ive been using either. I plan to remove them completely in my quest to cool the rotors further...

...

Going with a front BBK versus both front + rear, will surely change the front to rear bias. I would assume that most users have not given this much thought. The other limitation is ending up with a limited selection of brake pads for the specific BBK you buy.
The Ti shims definitely do not help with the pad fade. I upgraded to PFC-08 pads and still experienced the unfriendly ballpark of fade as I did with Stoptech street pads. The fade was of course less unkind but not enough to offer confidence and consistency. However, the ECS rotors in there are very likely contributing a significant amount to the fade.

Removing the F30 plates will help considerably with cooling. I'm just hesitant about all that heat exposure to the suspension bushings nearby.

Apparently, a front only BBK can be installed without upsetting the brake bias. For example, the Stoptech 135i BBK keeps the brake system balanced even if the rears are left alone.

Last edited by Bullitt; 01-17-2015 at 10:45 PM.. Reason: brake duct sizes were incorrect
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      01-11-2015, 08:08 PM   #35
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I run Stoptech Trophy kit for m3 and have m3 gt4 brake ducts being fed air from the front splitter. The stoptech trophy kit is an amazing kit.
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      01-12-2015, 09:19 AM   #36
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bullitt View Post
In order to install brake ducting without limiting steering and possible damage from the tires, the duct must be routed aft then around the shock with a U-turn (like on Berk's race car). A 2.5" duct should clear everything easily between the hub and shock. I plan to squeeze a 3" in there, which will cause slight deformation but with little concern. There's also not enough room to route piping into the existing duct hole in the wheel well that leads to the front of the front bumper. The ducts must go through a more inward route, either by creating a new hole (as Berk did) or attach to wide-mouthed vacuum heads mounted below the car.
I found a way to fit 2-inch CAT-8 aircraft grade flex piping, by tapping a hole in the OE brake duct, and routing under the belly pan/splashshield. I havent yet decided whether to attach a 2-inch flange to the brake dust shield, or just cut an opening in the dust shield, and point the mouth of a 2-inch 45* elbow towards the center of the rotor.
See pics below:

This is where I have tapped a hole in the OE duct that goes into the wheel fender...


These are central vacumm 2-inch elbows that I used my dremel on, to create a mouth, and "Steal" the air from the OE bumper duct...


... elbow fed through cut-out on passenger side OE duct ...


... I used a flexible rubber funnel, that I carefully and gradually cut to fit inside the driver-side OE duct, and funnel air into my 2-inch 90* elbow...




This is how I route my 2-inch flex piping, above the plastic splash shield/belly pan, on the passenger side...
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Last edited by dcaron9999; 01-12-2015 at 12:12 PM..
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      01-12-2015, 01:42 PM   #37
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^ Good work. I'd suggest cutting a hole in the dust shield near the center of the rotor and attach the 2" flange directly over it with rivets.
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      07-22-2015, 01:42 PM   #38
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FYI, I found on another site that the Stoptech 309s are rated up to 1300* - I ordered a pair to try out after melting my Redstuff pads at Butonwillow. I'll be at a slower track next week so it won't be apples to apples but I imagine they'll hold up better
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      07-22-2015, 05:34 PM   #39
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front axle
brembo 6 pot, lug mount to radial modification (my custom cnc work)
caliper brackets (aircraft aluminum)
360mm two piece floating rotors (1m/m3e92)
braided lines (goodridge components)
endless ccr-g pads
motul rbf660

rear axle
stock with ds2500 pads.

our car primarily used on trackdays.
brakes work excellent on street and track.


total for front, about 2300$.












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      07-22-2015, 11:48 PM   #40
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Quote:
Originally Posted by slonik View Post
front axle
brembo 6 pot, lug mount to radial modification (my custom cnc work)
caliper brackets (aircraft aluminum)
360mm two piece floating rotors (1m/m3e92)
braided lines (goodridge components)
endless ccr-g pads
motul rbf660

rear axle
stock with ds2500 pads.

our car primarily used on trackdays.
brakes work excellent on street and track.

total for front, about 2300$.












What wheels are those?
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      07-23-2015, 03:15 AM   #41
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Quote:
What wheels are those?
apex ec7 18x9.5
http://www.apexraceparts.com/apex-pr...l#.VbCiCNCd7zY

we have 1m front and stock non M rear, so et22 on front and et58 on rear (same 9.5 width).

i like this wheels a lot, not only for design - they also have a lot of space for brakes. 380mm brembo goes easily in r18.
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      07-23-2015, 06:21 AM   #42
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Nice work, slonik.

Today, I'm getting the stock pads getting changed for ATE brake pads.
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      07-24-2015, 10:02 PM   #43
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Quote:
Originally Posted by slonik View Post
apex ec7 18x9.5
http://www.apexraceparts.com/apex-pr...l#.VbCiCNCd7zY

we have 1m front and stock non M rear, so et22 on front and et58 on rear (same 9.5 width).

i like this wheels a lot, not only for design - they also have a lot of space for brakes. 380mm brembo goes easily in r18.
I like those alot. I like how the hub is concave. Im assuming you wouldnt be able to fit 9.5 in the front without the wide fenders right?
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      04-21-2016, 11:52 PM   #44
135WPN
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Sorry to revive an old post, but slonik would you happen to know the flush offset for front and rear non-M? And also where did you get them from? Looking to source a set down here in Australia!
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