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      10-04-2008, 01:57 PM   #89
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Balls, in this case I agree with you. I am sure the Z4m will top the test track over a 135i. I cannot comment on the performance and "feel" of the Z4m as I have not driven one. I sat it in but that was in a showroom, I'm 6'4 and I'll be honest I felt very awkward tring to get out afterwards (it wasn't a gracefull exit)
The 135i is marginally better to get out of, but not much.
Perhaps one day I will drive one and then I can comment on it in more detail.
With a wife and kid it's never going to fit into my lifestyle, but more shall I say an individuals car, some say a drivers car. Then again if I had the real bucks, was single and mad, my personal choice would then be a TVR Sagaris for personal indulgence.
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      10-04-2008, 02:39 PM   #90
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Balls
Truthfully, the 0-60 times are near the same and the only figures that count are the ones BMW posts as their's are the most standardized. In those, the Z4 M is .2 seconds faster.
Seems to me that you care a lot more for 0-60 times than you lead us on to believe. If you didn't care, then you wouldn't care what the mfr says. The whole point of independent testing is to verify whether the mfr makes reasonable claims.
BMW's method is probably no more standardized than the better mags (comparing within mags, car for car). Their methods are completely transparent, as they write up on their websites and in print how they arrive at the figures they do. I've never seen anything like that by BMW (or any other manufacturer for that matter).

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Originally Posted by Balls
For sure the best sports car package I've ever driven and had the pleasure to own.
Better to drive than the Cayman S?

I haven't driven the Z4 M and I don't doubt it's the more visceral thrill. But if you've read the UK tests of the Z4 M or M Coupe, their assessment of the steering reads very much like some reviews for the 135i (lack of steering feel, etc.). And the M cars can't rely on runflats as a reason for this.
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      10-04-2008, 02:47 PM   #91
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Balls View Post
Understand completely. The price sold me too. I'd much prefer a Porsche Cayman S in the garage to sit along side my MV Agusta but was too hard to justify. Plus, I always wanted a M car too. I'm not disappointed in the least. The car is amazing to drive. I need 4 seats too. That's what my 330xi is for...
Enjoy your M car - that's the pinnacle of BMW performance!

One thing about BMW 0-60 times - we've discussed here that BMW could be conservative on the 1 so as not to piss off the M owners. Just speculating.
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      10-04-2008, 03:35 PM   #92
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Someone keeps saying Z4M is lighter than 135i but the difference is only 140 lb. I thought it was more like 300lb or something. I would hardly call that an advantage. My MCS is 2668 lb.... 600 lb lighter than Z4M. That's a big advantage in the corners. That's like carrying 3 pro football players all the time. or two sumo wrestlers. or a small cow. . . .
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      10-04-2008, 04:49 PM   #93
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Balls View Post
My bottomline when it comes to performance is always this, which car can I drive faster. Well, I've had the pleasure of both this year and the drives are more different than hairsplitting would dictate on paper. For sure I can drive a Z4 M faster than a 135i because it's more confidence inspiring. Plus, I really like the heavy steering feel and the always planted feeling at high speed. Have you driven both enough to have an opinion?

The fact you make a special mention of high altitude only proves to me you're looking far and hard for any advantage to make up the gap. Audi enthusaists do the same when they throw in wet conditions. But you may be correct that at 6 or 8 thousand feet the 135i may have an advantage. I wouldn't know as I've never operated anything at that altitude.

Truthfully, the 0-60 times are near the same and the only figures that count are the ones BMW posts as their's are the most standardized. In those, the Z4 M is .2 seconds faster. 0-60 is one thing, but by no means something definitive to measure total performance. Lots of cars these days are close in that performance figure, and for sure a turbo can be boosted in power quite easily. Personally I wouldn't dare touch a motor still in warranty and risk reliability. If my car is slower than others than so be it. It drives the way I like and for sure has a really serious performance envelope, far beyond 0-60 times. For sure the best sports car package I've ever driven and had the pleasure to own. Hell, the steering wheel alone is worth the difference in price. An obvious exaggeration but everything you touch in the car from the seats to the steering wheel to the gearshift knob is about perfect. Strap it on some time and see for yourself.
As I said in the second post, I drove it and did not fall in love. I couldn't believe it either because I wanted to love the z4m soooo much and had one that I could have gotten for 45k in the beautiful blue. I had convinced myself that I didn't need a backseat and all that. Granted it was only a test drive, but when I was driving it, it just wasn't all that spectacular and had sooo many short comings for practicality. (Blind spots, egress, 2 seats) But I still feel it is sexy, but I think I like the 2001's better.

The reason I value the turbos and high altitude performance is because in a few months I may have to move to the mountains do to an upcoming pcs, if I do that with a z4m I might as well sell it because it aint the same car anymore. That is why it is important to me, it is still a drivers race in my eyes at sea level.

BMW didn't want to upset the people who worship at (and donate thousands to) the church of "M". When everyone else tests it as faster, go ahead and believe it is faster. Not only is the 0-60 better, the braking was too and the skidpad was nearly identical IIRC.

I stand by my statement that, though the z4m would feel more fun (faster) on the track, it would be close enought to really make the difference the driver. If you are faster in the z4m, then you have made the right choice (are you $15,000 worth of faster:iono. In the end the two cars are very comparable, even on the track.
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      10-04-2008, 04:54 PM   #94
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Cayman S / Z4M data sheet: http://www.roadandtrack.com/assets/d...data_panel.pdf

135i data sheet:
http://www.roadandtrack.com/assets/d...508_RT_BMW.pdf
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      10-04-2008, 05:05 PM   #95
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The curb weight per R&T is only 45 lbs heavier for the 135, that s54 is an anchor, or maybe its the mech. diff.

Balls, these cars are easily comparible.

You can argue the non-standardized test if you want, but then you would be just like the audi guys who talk wet handling. Plus it was the same mag, but even on different days, the numbers are close enough that put them side by side and the driver is the difference.
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      10-04-2008, 05:30 PM   #96
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http://www.roadandtrack.com/assets/d...508_RT_BMW.pdf

135i is faster as we know. Amazing amazing amazing for the price !
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      10-04-2008, 05:41 PM   #97
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135i's lateral g is also higher than Z4M.
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      10-05-2008, 04:33 AM   #98
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For sure the 135i is a lot of performance for the money. That was my motivation for buying it.

Unfortunately for car enthusiasts, car magazines don't standardize the rubber on the vehicles they test, like American sport motorcycle magazines do. Sure by not changing tires you get relative performance figures for the package as it comes, but rarely does anyone replace the tires with the OEM types, and they make a huge difference. For both the 135i and Z4 M, BMW has made OEM choices that don't please enthusiasts and affect performance figures (makes an even bigger difference when compared to cars like Porsches). At least with the new M3 they gave you a super high performance tire. Like most Z4 M owners, I can't wait to shed the Continentals in favor of something on par with the car's performance. The Continentals really limit performance in all aspects. Same as the runflats do to the 135i (which also the skinny tires and front wheel width do it no favors either).

Something few comment on when making a comparison of these fine cars is top speed and gearing. I know many Z4 M owners change the rear end to something less tall. My God the car bone stock from the factory does 172 mph in 5th gear due to no electronic limitation in all but 6th. The Z4 M's tall gearing is a tradeoff to acceleration so it can achieve higher track speeds. 0-60 is really a poor measurement of acceleration these days. In German BMW new car literature, they also give you values to 1000 meters (1 kilometer). I'll have to dig and see what those are for the pair.

As for who commented that 0-60 times are important to me (when I say they're not), well I can't help misinterpretations. I've never been one to abuse my vehicles and I think jack rabbit starts are a kind of abuse. I did do 2 of them in my 135i all total, both the day before I sold it. It definitely was easy to spin the tires up but after the second start I thought the clutch was gone. For sure it felt semi-destroyed until I drove around for about 30 more minutes. I may have done permanent damage to it. Oh well...
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      10-05-2008, 09:25 AM   #99
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Quote:
Originally Posted by esscolab View Post
The Z4M is also a hairdressers car I wouldn't be seen dead in it.
isn't that the 'pot calling the kettle black'....
don't get me wrong, i love the look of the 135 cab, love the looks, love the performance....i know most two seater cars get stereotyped as 'hairdresser' cars... but come on! how the hell can you make that comment driving the 135 cab. 75% of the 1's i have seen have had women behind the wheel.
that said, i'm going to test drive one this afternoon with my wife... we need a 4-seater, and i'd love to add a 135 to the driveway.:wink:
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      10-05-2008, 10:23 AM   #100
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BallZ - so you are more intersted in 170+ top speed rather than 0-60 and 60-80/100 mph performance? Come on man.

Off the line and roll-on power are what it's all about here.
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      10-05-2008, 02:33 PM   #101
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just test drove a 135 coupe with my wife... LOVED IT!
super smooth engine, handled great... sharp car...
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      10-05-2008, 05:26 PM   #102
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if you cause a permanent damage by doing two hard starts, you don't know how to drive a stick, IMO.
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      10-05-2008, 06:47 PM   #103
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AtoB View Post
just test drove a 135 coupe with my wife... LOVED IT!
super smooth engine, handled great... sharp car...
So.. is she getting one?
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      10-05-2008, 06:55 PM   #104
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So.. is she getting one?
dunno yet, she wants to wait until the 2009 3 series hit's the dealers. she had a smile from ear to ear while driving it... her only real hang up was that the 135 is RWD.
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      10-05-2008, 07:18 PM   #105
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dunno yet, she wants to wait until the 2009 3 series hit's the dealers. she had a smile from ear to ear while driving it... her only real hang up was that the 135 is RWD.
For safety reasons? Rear drive really won't make a difference if you never disable traction control. I've kept my foot firmly to the floor in turns and the computer over rides it to keep the car on the road. The only front wheel drive bmw made is a mini.
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      10-05-2008, 08:05 PM   #106
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Quote:
Originally Posted by crzy4135i View Post
For safety reasons? Rear drive really won't make a difference if you never disable traction control. I've kept my foot firmly to the floor in turns and the computer over rides it to keep the car on the road. The only front wheel drive bmw made is a mini.
snow... we live in boston. i have a Z4M that i drive all year round (snows in the winter). she isn't as confident a driver in the snow... she put her 325Xi through a fence last winter during a light snow. however, it was hysterical watching her blast through the gears on the test drive... i think even the sales guy was shocked how aggressively she drove... teaching her how to drive stick was the best thing i could have done.
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      10-06-2008, 02:56 AM   #107
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bmwzone View Post
BallZ - so you are more intersted in 170+ top speed rather than 0-60 and 60-80/100 mph performance? Come on man.

Off the line and roll-on power are what it's all about here.
No, I'm most interested in power out of corners truth be told, and the ability to enter corner's quick and hold a tight line through it. But as long as I live in Germany top end is far more a rush than standing on the throttle in 1st and 2nd.
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      10-06-2008, 02:58 AM   #108
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Quote:
Originally Posted by future135i View Post
if you cause a permanent damage by doing two hard starts, you don't know how to drive a stick, IMO.
So you think. Of course I fully expected some immature person to make such a statement.
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      10-06-2008, 11:09 AM   #109
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Balls, it's obvious you love your M Coupe and it is a great car. For a "fun" car and occasional track car, I also considered the M Coupe or M Roadster, along with the 135i. In the end, the value of the 135i won out for me, as a new M Coupe or M Roadster is significantly more expensive in Canada compared to a basic 135i coupe with no options other than the M sport package. And after doing some research in terms of performance (straight line acceleration, handling, laptimes, etc), I felt I didn't give up that much when choosing the 1er.

I'm not going to go into straight line acceleration, as I think the 2 cars are so close that it's really a driver's race. As I track my car, the more important thing for me is the handling aspect. There has never been a head to head comparison between the M coupe and 135i, but the data from various magazines is consistent......there is NO significant difference between the 2 when it comes to actual grip and handling, even with stock tires.

Road & Track (M Coupe/135i):
200ft skidpad: 0.88g/0.91g
700ft slalom: 70.5mph/70.6mph

Car & Driver (M Coupe/135i):
328ft skidpad: 0.89g/0.89g

Motortrend (M Coupe/135i):
lateral acceleration: 0.90g/0.94g
figure 8 course: 25.8s/25.2s

Sport Auto (M Coupe/135i):
Hockenheim laptime: 1.17,2 min/1.17,4 min

Consistently, the 135i has been shown to have very high limits when it comes to grip. The main problem is that BMW has tuned the suspension to be a very good compromise between handling and everyday road comfort. Like the E46 M3, the Z4 M Coupe feels much stiffer on everyday streets than the 135i. That comfort compromise is what some people complain about, as the suspension feels noticeably softer when taking the car to the limits. But just because the 135i FEELS softer and less confidence inspiring, it does not necessarily mean the 135i can't turn as fast, as objective data shows.

I have no doubt the M Coupe FEELS more exciting and involving to drive than the 135i, simply because there is much less compromise for comfort. I also have no doubt that the NA 3.2L I6 screams much better for that "racing feel" compared to the twin turbo 3.0L I6.

Ever since getting the 135i, I've taken it the track 3 times this past summer with everything stock. I'm no pro and I'm don't race, but I do enjoy lapping on a track. Grip levels are high, and I'm mighty impressed despite the run flat tires. I've run with M coupes, and the two I encountered were both slower on a track. Of course, there are more E46 M3's out there......and the only ones that are consistently faster than me are those with R-compounds. I can attest that for the average driver who does lapping days for fun, the 135i is VERY capable. The lack of a mechanical LSD will unlikely affect corner exit speeds out of turns for most average drivers, as the e-diff does work. Of course, this may be different for pro drivers who race.

And I have to say this: unless you track your car, these impressions of superior this and that about handling for cars as closely matched as these 2 are POINTLESS. It is highly unlikely that either of these cars will be taken to their handling limits on everyday urban streets.
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      10-06-2008, 11:15 AM   #110
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Well said.
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