Wide wheels follow the grooves on the road?

[RimasRS]

Suspension specialists please help with the following question...

When wheels tires are bigger and wider which parts in suspension have to be upgraded to avoid that feeling when car follows the grooves on the road that you have to even hold the steering wheel to keep straight line?

[pixelblue]

Probably need an alignment. Ask for a little toe in for the front. Helps with tracking

[RimasRS]

Originally Posted by pixelblue

Probably need an alignment. Ask for a little toe in for the front. Helps with tracking

Thanks, but why with oem wheels everything is ok. Going wider u starting to feel that u have to hold steering. And for example with M3 cars have even bigger wheels and steering is normal easy. Maybe upgraded sway bar would help?

[fourtailpipes]

alignment. wider tires should not have this effect, and swaybars have absolutely nothing to do with this.

[RimasRS]

Originally Posted by fourtailpipes

alignment. wider tires should not have this effect, and swaybars have absolutely nothing to do with this.

So where is the secret that some cars can go wide tires without any problems and hard steering?

[Lubo]

Originally Posted by fourtailpipes

alignment. wider tires should not have this effect, and swaybars have absolutely nothing to do with this.

As other have said, alignment. In order to not "fight" steering ask for 1/8" toe in.

You are probably running a different brand of tires than what was on the OEM and these tires tram line a bit more and the reason why it is more pronounced. It has nothing to do with their size.

[RimasRS]

Originally Posted by Lubo

As other have said, alignment. In order to not "fight" steering ask for 1/8" toe in.

You are probably running a different brand of tires than what was on the OEM and these tires tram line a bit more and the reason why it is more pronounced. It has nothing to do with their size.

Ok interesting. But than again same example M3 you think have different toe settings like inner 1/8'' ?

[fourtailpipes]

Originally Posted by RimasRS

So where is the secret that some cars can go wide tires without any problems and hard steering?

the secret starts with "a..." and ends with "...lignment"

[Dackelone]

Originally Posted by fourtailpipes

the secret starts with "a..." and ends with "...lignment"

It could also be that the roads RimasRS is driving on, aren't that flat and smooth(as the ones we have in DE or even the USA) - hence the camber pulling. Normally as a tire wears down... its contact patch increase slightly - this tends to make the car "slot" into the worn pavement grooves. Like a road worn down by heavy trucks... sometimes you will feel that tug on the steering wheel. Even with my larger 225's/255's I never have any tracking issues on the smooth roads in DE.

But over here in Germany... I rarely feel those grooves or fight the steering wheel. Well... only when I drive on a really old road like in Italy or the former DDR lands. lol

[ken1137]

Originally Posted by Dackelone

It could also be that the roads RimasRS is driving on, aren't that flat and smooth(as the ones we have in DE or even the USA) - hence the camber pulling. Normally as a tire wears down... its contact patch increase slightly - this tends to make the car "slot" into the worn pavement grooves. Like a road worn down by heavy trucks... sometimes you will feel that tug on the steering wheel. Even with my larger 225's/255's I never have any tracking issues on the smooth roads in DE.

But over here in Germany... I rarely feel those grooves or fight the steering wheel. Well... only when I drive on a really old road like in Italy or the former DDR lands. lol

+1 This is true in the Chicago suburbs...some roads are crap with enormous trenches due to cheap labor and materials for local roads. lowest bid wins the job. We also encounter seems in pavement every 5 meters...they normally grow (height and width) in the Winter due to moisture freezing under the pavement. Some roads are actually wavy. I feel for the Ferrari owners...rumor has it Dwayne Wade trashed his due to the shitty roads here in the Chicago...ripped the undercarriage apart.

[cvc 22349a]

Dinan states that stiffer bushings in the front tension links reduces the tendancy of the front tires to follow ruts and grooves in the road. I found this to be true when I installed the M3 front tension and wishbone links, but I also got an alignment at the same time...

[RimasRS]

Well here we have good quality roads. But like everywhere there is also bad. But question was why some of the cars can drive without any tension to the steering and others can't?
CVC 22349a +1 ^^^^ maybe stiffer bushings is the answer.

It's not about my 1 it's about every other car. And if to go wider with my 1er i wonder what can be improved in suspension setup to avoid that...

[Lubo]

Originally Posted by RimasRS

Well here we have good quality roads. But like everywhere there is also bad. But question was why some of the cars can drive without any tension to the steering and others can't?
CVC 22349a +1 ^^^^ maybe stiffer bushings is the answer.

It's not about my 1 it's about every other car. And if to go wider with my 1er i wonder what can be improved in suspension setup to avoid that...

The simple and most cost effective way to do it is getting an alignment. Just for your info I am running 255s up front in NYC. I've aggressive alignment that helps out on the track so my car does tend to follow every single irregularity. Getting slightly more toe in will help your car feel more planted and track straight.

[RimasRS]

Thanks guys so I think first is to set a more positive toe and second bushings upgrade

[3liter1]

Originally Posted by RimasRS

Suspension specialists please help with the following question...

When wheels tires are bigger and wider which parts in suspension have to be upgraded to avoid that feeling when car follows the grooves on the road that you have to even hold the steering wheel to keep straight line?

When you say "grooves" do you mean a number of small parallel indentations (like 1 cm) ? or do you mean the larger imprints/indentations left from continual truck traffic?

My experience is that different tires, depending on whether they are more or less round vs square sholder can have a big impact and result in the feeling you describe. I experience this every year when i switch from snow tires (rounder-shouldered Dunlops) to the more square-shouldered Michelins. The more square-shouldered Michelins "tramline" as we call it. For me it is in the center lane of heavily used three lane roads where trucks have been traveling. I don't get this with the Dunlops. The alignment stays the same.
Hope this helps

[Dackelone]

Originally Posted by AudiS4

When you say "grooves" do you mean a number of small parallel indentations (like 1 cm) ? or do you mean the larger imprints/indentations left from continual truck traffic?

I have never seen those "grooves" on certain highways that you see in the states - to promote better water run off. Over in Europe they just use a more pourous pavemnet mix to allow the rain water to seep thru the pavement surface. Not run off of it - like the grooved highways in the states.

I think RimasRS is talking about streets that aren't perfectly flat like from truck traffic at traffic lights, or a crowned(arched) back roads.

[bogart]

Originally Posted by RimasRS

Suspension specialists please help with the following question...

When wheels tires are bigger and wider which parts in suspension have to be upgraded to avoid that feeling when car follows the grooves on the road that you have to even hold the steering wheel to keep straight line?

No parts of the suspension need to be upgraded. You need to adjust the toe, which you can do in your driveway. Wider tires have nothing to do with it. The phenomenon you are talking about is called tramlining.

Originally Posted by pixelblue

Probably need an alignment. Ask for a little toe in for the front. Helps with tracking

Actually... toe-in will make things "feel" worse. The adjustment that would eliminate the issue would be negative camber and neutral or toe-out. I know this because when my car was stock with almost no negative camber and toe-in, it would tramline like crazy. After suspension upgrades I now run -3 degree camber and I had it set at 1/8-1/4" toe-out. Tramline sensation went away completely.

I just recently changed it back to a slight toe-in, I would say about 1/8", and even with the negative camber, I now feel the tramline again. So, some toe-out, alone, may do the trick now that I think about it more.

Originally Posted by RimasRS

Thanks, but why with oem wheels everything is ok. Going wider u starting to feel that u have to hold steering. And for example with M3 cars have even bigger wheels and steering is normal easy. Maybe upgraded sway bar would help?

Larger contact patch, typically with wider wheels you run wider tires. M3's have a whole different steering setup. They also run a completely different suspension setup. They also have more stock negative camber and a different toe setup.

Upgrading to M3 control arms would help the most.

Originally Posted by fourtailpipes

alignment. wider tires should not have this effect, and swaybars have absolutely nothing to do with this.

+1

Originally Posted by RimasRS

So where is the secret that some cars can go wide tires without any problems and hard steering?

No secrets.

Originally Posted by Lubo

As other have said, alignment. In order to not "fight" steering ask for 1/8" toe in.

You are probably running a different brand of tires than what was on the OEM and these tires tram line a bit more and the reason why it is more pronounced. It has nothing to do with their size.

Eh... read above, I'm not so sure toe-in is the solution.

[tracer bullet]

Originally Posted by AudiS4

My experience is that different tires, depending on whether they are more or less round vs square sholder can have a big impact and result in the feeling you describe. I experience this every year when i switch from snow tires...

Same here. My summer tires tended to wander, my snow tires did not. No change to the alignment.

Knowing this I could believe that if tire A tends to wander, and tire B is the same but wider, it'd have more width to find those grooves in the road and tend to wander more as well? I dunno, just a theory.

But i agree tires make a big difference in addition to the alignment as mentioned.

[icabod7]

http://www.tirerack.com/tires/tirete....jsp?techid=47

Pretty decent article on the phenomenon.

[cvc 22349a]

Originally Posted by RimasRS

Well here we have good quality roads. But like everywhere there is also bad. But question was why some of the cars can drive without any tension to the steering and others can't?
CVC 22349a +1 ^^^^ maybe stiffer bushings is the answer.

It's not about my 1 it's about every other car. And if to go wider with my 1er i wonder what can be improved in suspension setup to avoid that...

Meyle makes HD bushings to be pressed into existing tension links if you don't want to switch to M3 links.

[Eddy@ApexWheels]

It's a known fact that wider tires tramline. If you're tires are only slightly wider (going from 215 to 225) and you're feeling a noticeable difference then it's your alignment.

Tramlining is really something only something to consider when you go from say 225's to 265's up front.

[Lubo]

Originally Posted by bogart

Multiple quotes

I am running -2.5* and 1/8" toe out. Car is daily driven on 255/40 17 Star Spec. With fresh rubber tramlining effect wasn't bad but was present. After my tires wore 1/2 way through the cars wants to follow every little rut, groove or imperfection in the road, and forget about hitting standing water with one side at speed. 2 hands on the steering wheel all the time for me.

You are correct about the negative camber though. It will help but without upgrading to plates or M3 arms there isn't enough range for adjusting it.

This article should help http://www.ozebiz.com.au/racetech/theory/align.html