Brakes & seats are frustrating me....

int2str · 02-25-2013, 03:15 PM

So, just came back from an awesome day at Auto Club Speedway. That front straight & banked turn sure is a rush!

The track highlighted two frustrating shortcomings on my car:

1) Brakes. My stock brakes + Ferodo DS2500 pads + RBF 600 fluid performed very well. However, I had to consistently brake way earlier than many of the cars that were there (Porsche's + others). I really with I could do something to improve stopping power while keep the car streetable. Short of spending 5-6k, there doesn't seem to be much for our cars that makes a real difference....

2) Seats. I spend half the lap re-arranging myself back into a "normal" driving position after sliding around on my stock (non-sport) seats in my stock belts. I would be willing to get some Recaro CS or similar seats (need them to be folding), but not at the expense of having my frontal airbags not work or warning lights in the dash. Why is there still no solution for aftermarket seats on our cars?!

Mostly just ranting here, but many of you must have solved these problems already if you track/auto-x your car. What did you do?

pixelblue · 02-25-2013, 04:06 PM

there are some incremental steps to improve your braking before dumping 5-6k on a bbk. first get yourself some race pads. next stop get the RB big 350mm rotors. after that getting some cold air to the rotors would be great. of course this is easier said than done because of our cars design but if there's a will there's a way. as far as seats are concerned, there's no substitute for good supportive seats but that'll set you back a minimum of $2k

int2str · 02-25-2013, 05:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by pixelblue

there are some incremental steps to improve your braking before dumping 5-6k on a bbk. first get yourself some race pads. next stop get the RB big 350mm rotors. after that getting some cold air to the rotors would be great.

Are the RB rotors really worth it?
Haven't gotten glowing reviews from anybody yet...

And the cold air thing will be made worse soon since I'm about to install dual oil-coolers...

Quote:

as far as seats are concerned, there's no substitute for good supportive seats but that'll set you back a minimum of $2k

I don't mind dropping 2k on good seats. But what I do mind is my passenger airbag not working and/or my dash lighting up like a x-mas tree

Can't believe those issues haven't been solved yet....

GaryS · 02-25-2013, 05:58 PM

For stopping power, tires make the biggest difference, brake pads make a smaller difference. The Hawk DTC pads I use have about double the friction the Ferrodos have. Bigger rotors would have to be double the diameter to do that much. I've heard that suspension setup also makes a difference in stopping power, but I don't know anything about that.

For sliding around in the seats, I use a locking clip like this one. It locks the lap belt tight and is a big help. For this year, I bought a Schroth 4-point harness, but I haven't tried it yet.

Nugget · 02-25-2013, 07:39 PM

I use a CG lock and it helps a bit with sliding around in the seat. I also was a bit under whelmed by the brakes, even with better pads/fluid, hence stop techs going on.
I also have some brake ducting and backing plates I no longer need if you're interested.

Ginger_Extract · 02-26-2013, 05:50 PM

I agree with whoever said tires. Want better stopping power, acceleration, grip? Get better tires.

RimasRS · 02-27-2013, 02:27 AM

Seats. If you will visit good coder he will code out just the seat airbag and other of your airbags will work without christmas tree

Focusedintntions · 02-27-2013, 09:01 AM

I think OP's biggest issue is he has the regular non-sport seats that have zero bolstering. I would recommend if OP wants some seats in there that won't have his lights on and still wants all the safety, try to find a some used sport seats to put in the car. Maybe out of a wrecked 135?

HP Autosport · 03-01-2013, 01:07 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by pixelblue

there are some incremental steps to improve your braking before dumping 5-6k on a bbk. first get yourself some race pads. next stop get the RB big 350mm rotors. after that getting some cold air to the rotors would be great. of course this is easier said than done because of our cars design but if there's a will there's a way. as far as seats are concerned, there's no substitute for good supportive seats but that'll set you back a minimum of $2k

Nothing beats a proper BBK. Race pads will help a bit, but you still have a tiny and thin rotor to deal with. A BBK with 355 mm rotor in 32mm thickness and race pads will end OP's problems with no cooling ducts needed.

Harold

p66 · 03-02-2013, 09:11 PM

No cost mod to help with sliding in your seat. Use the belt lock. Start by moving the seat back a few inches, then snap the shoulder belt tight. It will engage the lock. Keep tension on the belt and move the seat forward to your desired driving position. The belt will remain tight as long as you don't introduce slack. You will need to experiment with how far to move the seat back to get the desired tension. I used this technique with my 135i and 1M. Better than just a CG lock because it adds one shoulder belt. It's like a 3-point harness.

HP Autosport · 03-02-2013, 09:17 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by p66

No cost mod to help with sliding in your seat. Use the belt lock. Start by moving the seat back a few inches, then snap the shoulder belt tight. It will engage the lock. Keep tension on the belt and move the seat forward to your desired driving position. The belt will remain tight as long as you don't introduce slack. You will need to experiment with how far to move the seat back to get the desired tension. I used this technique with my 135i and 1M. Better than just a CG lock because it adds one shoulder belt. It's like a 3-point harness.

CG lock is the next best thing to a proper 4 or 5 point harness.

fboutlaw · 03-02-2013, 10:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by int2str

So, just came back from an awesome day at Auto Club Speedway. That front straight & banked turn sure is a rush!

The track highlighted two frustrating shortcomings on my car:

1) Brakes. My stock brakes + Ferodo DS2500 pads + RBF 600 fluid performed very well. However, I had to consistently brake way earlier than many of the cars that were there (Porsche's + others). I really with I could do something to improve stopping power while keep the car streetable. Short of spending 5-6k, there doesn't seem to be much for our cars that makes a real difference....

2) Seats. I spend half the lap re-arranging myself back into a "normal" driving position after sliding around on my stock (non-sport) seats in my stock belts. I would be willing to get some Recaro CS or similar seats (need them to be folding), but not at the expense of having my frontal airbags not work or warning lights in the dash. Why is there still no solution for aftermarket seats on our cars?!

Mostly just ranting here, but many of you must have solved these problems already if you track/auto-x your car. What did you do?

You can also do a BBK in the front and matching pads for the rear as an intermediate step between trying to make the stock setup work and the full 5k+ for a true BBK.

Kgolf31 · 03-02-2013, 10:38 PM

Upgrade the pads beyond OEM (they are not meant for the track) get some decent tires (Star Specs, RS3s...etc) and you'll be able to threshold brake deeper.

As well, screw the CG Lock...it only locks the lower part of the belt.

Use the "snap-it" technique.

Move your seat farther back than normal, and take your unbuckled seatbelt and snap it so it locks....It takes some practice but snap it to where you can barely buckle it in where you're sitting.

Now take your seat (while maintaining pressure on the seatbelt does it doesn't unlock) and move it forward to your driving position. If you do it right, the seatbelt will be firm on you and you'll have your lap and check strap tight against you...

It's been working for me for the past 3 years.

p66 · 03-03-2013, 11:33 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by HP Autowerks

CG lock is the next best thing to a proper 4 or 5 point harness.

How is a 2point harness better than a 3point harness? I'd get the CG lock if I couldn't make the snap lock work.

MightyMouseTech · 03-03-2013, 11:53 AM

Tires stop the car, the brakes stop the wheels. Tires make THE biggest difference to performance.

A good set of pads is the next most important selection. Unless you are running a full track pad, there is not much point in upgrading to bigger brakes. You need a pad meant to run in the temperature range you are using them at. Best pads I have used on many of my cars are Raybestos ST-43's, actually a NASCAR compound. Long life and great wear. But this is a track only compound, don't work very well at street speeds, and will chew up the rotors until they get warm.

Track pads are for the track only, street pads for the street. Just change them out at the track, only takes a couple minutes. Although, many compounds are incompatible with each other. I know that Hawk pads are all compatible with each other, so you can use a street pad, then switch to a track pad without worrying about compound incompatibility.

As for the seats, I always use the locking of the seat belt method when using stock belts, works like a charm. Also learning to keep yourself braced against the dead pedal helps.

TheSt|G · 03-03-2013, 10:34 PM

What tires are you running?

BBKs and such only help you stop more times, they don't reduce the distance. You should be good with proper track pads for the track and street pads for the street.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Purple Derple

No car stops as well as a porsche so don't be disappointed. Physics is the shortcoming, not $$$ invested.

That must be why 997 owners are swapping brake controllers to E46 M3 versions.

http://www.turnermotorsport.com/p-37...g-harness.aspx

02rsxpilot · 08-06-2013, 04:14 PM

The P-cars, depending the model, are between 200 and 500 lbs. lighter than the 1er. Of course they can brake later.

BBKs and race pads will help to a small degree with stopping distance, but more with brake fade, so if that isn't the problem, as others have mentioned, better tires will help, and the lighter you can make the car the less inertia the brakes have to slow down.

Pyrat 2 · 08-06-2013, 09:29 PM

Lots of good info here for the OP.

BBKs will only help with fade unless you have much more grip than standard tires.

If you swap tires only to something much grippier, then stock pads will start to limit braking - upgrade pads first, bbk after.

Upgrade fluid to RBF600 or ATE or equivalent regardless.

Everfly · 08-06-2013, 11:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by int2str

Are the RB rotors really worth it?
Haven't gotten glowing reviews from anybody yet...

And the cold air thing will be made worse soon since I'm about to install dual oil-coolers...

I don't mind dropping 2k on good seats. But what I do mind is my passenger airbag not working and/or my dash lighting up like a x-mas tree

Can't believe those issues haven't been solved yet....

Eas can code it now for the air bag light

hoki06 · 08-07-2013, 08:01 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kgolf31

Upgrade the pads beyond OEM (they are not meant for the track) get some decent tires (Star Specs, RS3s...etc) and you'll be able to threshold brake deeper.

As well, screw the CG Lock...it only locks the lower part of the belt.

Use the "snap-it" technique.

Move your seat farther back than normal, and take your unbuckled seatbelt and snap it so it locks....It takes some practice but snap it to where you can barely buckle it in where you're sitting.

Now take your seat (while maintaining pressure on the seatbelt does it doesn't unlock) and move it forward to your driving position. If you do it right, the seatbelt will be firm on you and you'll have your lap and check strap tight against you...

It's been working for me for the past 3 years.

Good advice here. True race pads, stickier tires, and good fluid will go a long way. If you're still not happy, look into a brake ducting system. I see no reason to spend stupid amount of money on a BBK for a street car that visits the track.

FWIW, my E36 M3 track car has stock brakes, DTC-60/HT-10 pads, and cooling ducts. In 2.5 years of being on track I have yet to boil fluid or have brake fade. Tires are still a limiting factor and will but until I feel like spending $$$ on R-comps.

As for seats, the trick described above works really well and 10x better than a CG lock. And I'll say that fixed back seats and harnesses made a HUGE difference in my driving on track but that's a big step away from street comfort/utility/practicality.

jbass524 · 08-07-2013, 07:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by HP Autosport

CG lock is the next best thing to a proper 4 or 5 point harness.

Nope. Belt lock is better. CG always slips. I've even used the 2 in conjunction and the CG still slips.

ilikebmxbikes · 08-07-2013, 08:05 PM

even my sport seats i slide around a ton. my legs are sore from bracing myself after track days.

02-25-2013, 03:15 PM	#1
int2str Captain 80 Rep 655 Posts Drives: 2008 135i Join Date: Feb 2010 Location: San Diego, CA iTrader: (2)	Brakes & seats are frustrating me.... So, just came back from an awesome day at Auto Club Speedway. That front straight & banked turn sure is a rush! The track highlighted two frustrating shortcomings on my car: 1) Brakes. My stock brakes + Ferodo DS2500 pads + RBF 600 fluid performed very well. However, I had to consistently brake way earlier than many of the cars that were there (Porsche's + others). I really with I could do something to improve stopping power while keep the car streetable. Short of spending 5-6k, there doesn't seem to be much for our cars that makes a real difference.... 2) Seats. I spend half the lap re-arranging myself back into a "normal" driving position after sliding around on my stock (non-sport) seats in my stock belts. I would be willing to get some Recaro CS or similar seats (need them to be folding), but not at the expense of having my frontal airbags not work or warning lights in the dash. Why is there still no solution for aftermarket seats on our cars?! Mostly just ranting here, but many of you must have solved these problems already if you track/auto-x your car. What did you do?
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02-25-2013, 04:06 PM	#2
pixelblue Colonel 140 Rep 2,234 Posts Drives: the silver bullet Join Date: Feb 2010 Location: northern virginia iTrader: (2) Garage List 2010 135i [8.90]	there are some incremental steps to improve your braking before dumping 5-6k on a bbk. first get yourself some race pads. next stop get the RB big 350mm rotors. after that getting some cold air to the rotors would be great. of course this is easier said than done because of our cars design but if there's a will there's a way. as far as seats are concerned, there's no substitute for good supportive seats but that'll set you back a minimum of $2k
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02-25-2013, 05:58 PM	#4
GaryS Colonel 37 Rep 2,084 Posts Drives: 2009 135i 6MT Join Date: Feb 2010 Location: Maryland iTrader: (0) Garage List 2009 135i [6.50]	For stopping power, tires make the biggest difference, brake pads make a smaller difference. The Hawk DTC pads I use have about double the friction the Ferrodos have. Bigger rotors would have to be double the diameter to do that much. I've heard that suspension setup also makes a difference in stopping power, but I don't know anything about that. For sliding around in the seats, I use a locking clip like this one. It locks the lap belt tight and is a big help. For this year, I bought a Schroth 4-point harness, but I haven't tried it yet.
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02-25-2013, 07:39 PM	#5
Nugget Colonel 650 Rep 2,601 Posts Drives: G81 M3 Touring, GR Supra GTS Join Date: Jan 2012 Location: Perth iTrader: (2) Garage List 2011 BMW 135i [10.00]	I use a CG lock and it helps a bit with sliding around in the seat. I also was a bit under whelmed by the brakes, even with better pads/fluid, hence stop techs going on. I also have some brake ducting and backing plates I no longer need if you're interested.
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02-26-2013, 05:50 PM	#6
Ginger_Extract California-bound 383 Rep 1,480 Posts Drives: BMW 135i Join Date: Jan 2013 Location: Los Angeles, CA iTrader: (3)	I agree with whoever said tires. Want better stopping power, acceleration, grip? Get better tires.
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02-27-2013, 02:27 AM	#7
RimasRS Colonel 85 Rep 2,438 Posts Drives: BMW X3 SD Join Date: Sep 2010 Location: Europe iTrader: (0)	Seats. If you will visit good coder he will code out just the seat airbag and other of your airbags will work without christmas tree
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02-27-2013, 09:01 AM	#8
Focusedintntions Colonel 105 Rep 2,696 Posts Drives: 2011 135i M-Sport :D Join Date: Nov 2010 Location: NoVA iTrader: (1)	I think OP's biggest issue is he has the regular non-sport seats that have zero bolstering. I would recommend if OP wants some seats in there that won't have his lights on and still wants all the safety, try to find a some used sport seats to put in the car. Maybe out of a wrecked 135? __________________ Faster, faster, faster, until the thrill of speed overcomes the fear of death… – Hunter Thompson
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03-02-2013, 09:11 PM	#10
p66 First Lieutenant 56 Rep 348 Posts Drives: 1M Join Date: May 2011 Location: Dallas, Texas iTrader: (2)	No cost mod to help with sliding in your seat. Use the belt lock. Start by moving the seat back a few inches, then snap the shoulder belt tight. It will engage the lock. Keep tension on the belt and move the seat forward to your desired driving position. The belt will remain tight as long as you don't introduce slack. You will need to experiment with how far to move the seat back to get the desired tension. I used this technique with my 135i and 1M. Better than just a CG lock because it adds one shoulder belt. It's like a 3-point harness.
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03-02-2013, 10:38 PM	#13
Kgolf31 Brigadier General 459 Rep 4,531 Posts Drives: 2007 Z4MC, 2012 128i Join Date: Sep 2008 Location: Ohio iTrader: (4)	Upgrade the pads beyond OEM (they are not meant for the track) get some decent tires (Star Specs, RS3s...etc) and you'll be able to threshold brake deeper. As well, screw the CG Lock...it only locks the lower part of the belt. Use the "snap-it" technique. Move your seat farther back than normal, and take your unbuckled seatbelt and snap it so it locks....It takes some practice but snap it to where you can barely buckle it in where you're sitting. Now take your seat (while maintaining pressure on the seatbelt does it doesn't unlock) and move it forward to your driving position. If you do it right, the seatbelt will be firm on you and you'll have your lap and check strap tight against you... It's been working for me for the past 3 years.
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03-03-2013, 11:53 AM	#15
MightyMouseTech Major General 4338 Rep 6,196 Posts Drives: 13 135i 6MT LeMans Blue MSport Join Date: Feb 2013 Location: Ottawa, Canada iTrader: (0)	Tires stop the car, the brakes stop the wheels. Tires make THE biggest difference to performance. A good set of pads is the next most important selection. Unless you are running a full track pad, there is not much point in upgrading to bigger brakes. You need a pad meant to run in the temperature range you are using them at. Best pads I have used on many of my cars are Raybestos ST-43's, actually a NASCAR compound. Long life and great wear. But this is a track only compound, don't work very well at street speeds, and will chew up the rotors until they get warm. Track pads are for the track only, street pads for the street. Just change them out at the track, only takes a couple minutes. Although, many compounds are incompatible with each other. I know that Hawk pads are all compatible with each other, so you can use a street pad, then switch to a track pad without worrying about compound incompatibility. As for the seats, I always use the locking of the seat belt method when using stock belts, works like a charm. Also learning to keep yourself braced against the dead pedal helps.
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08-06-2013, 04:14 PM	#17
02rsxpilot First Lieutenant 47 Rep 327 Posts Drives: 2012 BMW 135i Join Date: Apr 2013 Location: NorCal iTrader: (2) Garage List 2012 BMW 135i [10.00] 2013 Mini Cooper S [0.00] 2002 Acura RSX [0.00]	The P-cars, depending the model, are between 200 and 500 lbs. lighter than the 1er. Of course they can brake later. BBKs and race pads will help to a small degree with stopping distance, but more with brake fade, so if that isn't the problem, as others have mentioned, better tires will help, and the lighter you can make the car the less inertia the brakes have to slow down.
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08-06-2013, 09:29 PM	#18
Pyrat 2 Colonel 1418 Rep 2,560 Posts Drives: Rapidly from A to B Join Date: Jun 2005 Location: Chicago 'burbs or TN Smokies iTrader: (3) Garage List 2022 Porsche GT4 [9.64] 2018 Porsche GT3 [9.33] 2007 Z4 M Roadster [8.33] 2020 BMW X1 [0.00]	Lots of good info here for the OP. BBKs will only help with fade unless you have much more grip than standard tires. If you swap tires only to something much grippier, then stock pads will start to limit braking - upgrade pads first, bbk after. Upgrade fluid to RBF600 or ATE or equivalent regardless.
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08-07-2013, 08:05 PM	#22
ilikebmxbikes Banned 1518 Rep 4,744 Posts Drives: S65 1M Clone & E92 M3 4.6L Join Date: Apr 2011 Location: San Francisco iTrader: (42) Garage List '08/13 1M Clone 4.0L [10.00] '11 e92 M3 4.6L [10.00]	even my sport seats i slide around a ton. my legs are sore from bracing myself after track days.
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