Suspension setup with Bilstein B8's

[APhuze]

Looking for some guidance on making my 2011 135i a bit more street friendly,

Current suspension setup:

-Bilstein B8's, Swift Spec-R Spring
-M3 Front control arms, M3 Rear guide rods
-M3 Rear subframe bushings
-H&R Front sway bar 27mm
-Rear shock mounts (Dinan)
-Meghan racing rear toe arms
-GC Front street camber plates

So, the car is setup to reduce body roll and introduce a more stiff ride. I was looking for suggestions on what i could perhaps change to make it a bit friendlier for the inconsistent/uneven nature of the roads here in Ontario.

Whenever i am taking the vehicle for a spirited drive around any mountains, it becomes very apparent that the car is oriented for a perfectly paved track, rather than the the random bumps and holes in the roads around me. It almost feels like the car is too stiff for the inconsistencies in the road and it makes for a scary feeling sometimes in the rear end of the vehicle.

[Papa Popov]

I'd go with fixed camber plates unless you really think you need the adjustment. Fixed are much cheaper and less likely to introduce NVH.

[asbrr]

Your setup is very similar to mine. I have:

Bilstein B12 (Eibach springs + Bilstein B8)
Dinan fixed Camber plates
M3 lower arms at the front (2 per side)
Dinan upper rear shock mounts
2 Piece Whiteline RSFB (Poly)
Rogue Engineering transmission mounts (rubber)

I'm in Toronto, so I know the shit roads you're dealing with. The ride wasn't bad / tolerable until I put the M3 front LCAs on. That pushed it beyond the limit for me personally, really regret doing that. While i got more direct steering feel, and some more camber, I haven't been to an HPDE day in 3.5 years so for a daily they are a waste. I got the M3 LCAs because they were only a few bucks more than the regular ones (TRW OE, from FCP Euro).

What doesn't help is the B8s are just "harsh" in their typical dampening profile. They don't do very well for small sharp bumps (ie broken pavement). I love the fast body control on bigger amplitude bumps etc, but that daily driver comfort is compromised. You mix that with M3 LCAs and it's not tolerable IMO as a daily.

What did help me was going to a softer sidewall tire - Conti ExtremeContact Sport. It smoothed some of the small harshness away, slight expense in steering response though.

In hindsight I would never have done the M3 LCAs, just gone with OE replacements. Going back even further, I would have picked up some Koni Special Active / FSD dampers and paired them with the Eibachs or BMW Performance springs and called it a day.

For shit roads like we have, unless you spend bigger bucks on Ohlins or equivalent well tuned suspension, these cars won't be very comfortable IMO. I love the Ohlins R&T setup on my Cayman, you do get what you pay for in the end (and I customized them to manage the type of driving I do and on our type of streets).

Many folks have commented that even Koni Yellows are less harsh than the B8s, and you get some adjustability with the Konis....seems to me Bilsteins are well tuned for smooth German roads not the garbage we have here ha.

[APhuze]

Originally Posted by asbrr

Your setup is very similar to mine. I have:

Bilstein B12 (Eibach springs + Bilstein B8)
Dinan fixed Camber plates
M3 lower arms at the front (2 per side)
Dinan upper rear shock mounts
2 Piece Whiteline RSFB (Poly)
Rogue Engineering transmission mounts (rubber)

I'm in Toronto, so I know the shit roads you're dealing with. The ride wasn't bad / tolerable until I put the M3 front LCAs on. That pushed it beyond the limit for me personally, really regret doing that. While i got more direct steering feel, and some more camber, I haven't been to an HPDE day in 3.5 years so for a daily they are a waste. I got the M3 LCAs because they were only a few bucks more than the regular ones (TRW OE, from FCP Euro).

What doesn't help is the B8s are just "harsh" in their typical dampening profile. They don't do very well for small sharp bumps (ie broken pavement). I love the fast body control on bigger amplitude bumps etc, but that daily driver comfort is compromised. You mix that with M3 LCAs and it's not tolerable IMO as a daily.

What did help me was going to a softer sidewall tire - Conti ExtremeContact Sport. It smoothed some of the small harshness away, slight expense in steering response though.

In hindsight I would never have done the M3 LCAs, just gone with OE replacements. Going back even further, I would have picked up some Koni Special Active / FSD dampers and paired them with the Eibachs or BMW Performance springs and called it a day.

For shit roads like we have, unless you spend bigger bucks on Ohlins or equivalent well tuned suspension, these cars won't be very comfortable IMO. I love the Ohlins R&T setup on my Cayman, you do get what you pay for in the end (and I customized them to manage the type of driving I do and on our type of streets).

Many folks have commented that even Koni Yellows are less harsh than the B8s, and you get some adjustability with the Konis....seems to me Bilsteins are well tuned for smooth German roads not the garbage we have here ha.

Hey there, thank you so much for your in depth reply i really appreciate the time you took to write this out , I'm not too far out from Toronto being in Ottawa, so our roads are generally the same (let's not talk about Quebec's roads though... those are BAD)

If i understood correctly, the individual i bought the car from had it setup for lap days out of Merivale QC (probably tracks like Calabogie). He installed the M3 LCA's along with the Ground control camber plates to push out the front track width; and he was running around -3.0* camber and 0 toe up front, -2.2* camber and 1/8" toe in, in the back.

(I forgot to mention the AKG 75D motor supports and ECS tuning 80a transmission mounts, so this probably introduces a lot of NVH but i doubt it is what is causing me grief.)

You are spot on with the responsiveness of the Bilstein B8'S, they are super tight and honestly i feel little to no body roll on this chassis. I heard the bilsteins come with an internal bump stop too, and thus they can bottom out easily if hitting on an uneven road or hitting pot holes. "Not tolerable for a daily" is really where i am at now.

So interesting you mention the alternative shock options, i still have the oem bmw m-sport springs my 2011 135i came with, do you reckon if i go with Koni special actives + the Oem m-sport springs i might be looking at a more comfortable setup that's still better than stock? (The koni yellows may be another option, but the ohlins are out of the price range unfortunately)

One last thing, any tips on going wider in the back? I can run 255 square all around in my current setup but its not really a good look and the back still breaks traction with my protune, it looks like cutting the fenders and getting flares is the only way unless you have any ideas?

[blue135]

Can't comment on B8s. However, I have been using Koni Actives with the original, stock M-Sport springs. Came from stock shocks, but ride is slightly better and the handling is definitely more composed. Keep in mind I have E88, so slightly heavier than E82.
I passed on Bilsteins (though I am putting them on my truck) just for the reasons you mention. As I get older, I find stiff rides to get better handling has less appeal.

[asbrr]

Originally Posted by APhuze

Hey there, thank you so much for your in depth reply i really appreciate the time you took to write this out , I'm not too far out from Toronto being in Ottawa, so our roads are generally the same (let's not talk about Quebec's roads though... those are BAD)

If i understood correctly, the individual i bought the car from had it setup for lap days out of Merivale QC (probably tracks like Calabogie). He installed the M3 LCA's along with the Ground control camber plates to push out the front track width; and he was running around -3.0* camber and 0 toe up front, -2.2* camber and 1/8" toe in, in the back.

(I forgot to mention the AKG 75D motor supports and ECS tuning 80a transmission mounts, so this probably introduces a lot of NVH but i doubt it is what is causing me grief.)

You are spot on with the responsiveness of the Bilstein B8'S, they are super tight and honestly i feel little to no body roll on this chassis. I heard the bilsteins come with an internal bump stop too, and thus they can bottom out easily if hitting on an uneven road or hitting pot holes. "Not tolerable for a daily" is really where i am at now.

So interesting you mention the alternative shock options, i still have the oem bmw m-sport springs my 2011 135i came with, do you reckon if i go with Koni special actives + the Oem m-sport springs i might be looking at a more comfortable setup that's still better than stock? (The koni yellows may be another option, but the ohlins are out of the price range unfortunately)

One last thing, any tips on going wider in the back? I can run 255 square all around in my current setup but its not really a good look and the back still breaks traction with my protune, it looks like cutting the fenders and getting flares is the only way unless you have any ideas?

No worries.

Yep agreed with the other poster above - M sport stock springs with Koni Special Active is going to make for a much better ride. I would also consider selling off the M LCAs and going back to stock, FCPEuro has a good price on a full front rebuild including Tie Rods, all control arms etc for just under $500 USD. All quality parts/brands (Lemforder etc). You can sell the M3 stuff pretty easily I would think.

I would also go back to fresh / factory mounts, for the transmission you can go with M3 mounts or Rogue rubber mount and it's very streetable.

You can get 255s to fit in the back no problem on stock wheels/offsets, some have gone more but yes will require fender work. Look up Apex wheels they have excellent E82 fitment guides. Front is a different story, less room - again apex will help guide fitment.

Last but not least if you're gonna replace all this stuff, don't skimp on the small rubber bits like spring pads, shock mounts, strut mounts etc. Might as well freshen all that up and you're good for a long while!

Good luck..

[blue135]

Agree strongly with asbrr's last comment. Got a complete kit from ECS so I seem to recall there were a couple of things I had to add to get everything. Sure there are others out there that are out there.

[APhuze]

Thank you for your support folks, it is much appreciated. I'll dive a bit deeper into the whole fitment issue and going wider in the back after i address the current track setup my car has.

Just to touch base, is this the front end suspension kit you were refering to from FCP euro?

https://www.fcpeuro.com/products/bmw...0-e90fullkit-l

[asbrr]

Originally Posted by APhuze

Thank you for your support folks, it is much appreciated. I'll dive a bit deeper into the whole fitment issue and going wider in the back after i address the current track setup my car has.

Just to touch base, is this the front end suspension kit you were refering to from FCP euro?

https://www.fcpeuro.com/products/bmw...0-e90fullkit-l

Yep that's the one!

[Papa Popov]

Originally Posted by Papa Popov

I'd go with fixed camber plates unless you really think you need the adjustment. Fixed are much cheaper and less likely to introduce NVH.

Misread your original post, didn't realize those parts were already on your car.

I'll preface this by saying I live in South Carolina. I'd put money on Somalia having better roads than us.

Dampers: As others have suggested, Konis sound like the way to go. They're supposed to be much more compliant than Bilsteins plus you get adjustability. Kinda wish that I'd gone with the yellows to better tolerate our 3rd world quality roads. The B8s are tolerable for me, but on really bad roads they're not a good time. Been considering the Dinan rear mounts for the added rear travel, they're a straight upgrade.

Springs: I'd highly recommend the BMWPs. I absolutely love mine. They're a tad bit softer than Eibachs and the drop is much more conservative, perfect for a daily. M-sport springs were too soft despite our bad roads.Run, don't walk, to get them though.

Control arms: The M3 front arms were well worth it for me. I didn't notice much of an NVH increase after installing, and the steering response and additional camber have been awesome. The stock fluid filled bushing suck, but if you're looking to avoid NVH you could go back to the stock upper arm. The lower just adds camber with no drawbacks from what I understand. I don't have experience with the rear guide rods but they're on my to do list to tighten up the rear a bit more.

RSFBs: From my understanding, the M3 subframe bushings won't be worth changing out. Other options might be a bit better performance wise without any added NVH, but the install is a colossal PIA or pretty pricey if you have a shop do it. I would've gone with 2 piece poly if I was going whole-hog on the install, but I'm lazy and went with Whiteline inserts.

Sway bar: Can't comment on the sway bar, I don't know much about what they add in terms of NVH or ride quality. I just picked up an E93 M3 bar as a conservative upgrade, haven't installed yet though. I have heard that the M3 bushings actually ride better than the stock ones though.

Camber plates: I'd say my point still stands about the camber plates. I don't run any at all since my car is a DD, so I was shooting for -1.5 which was achievable with just the M3 arms. If I wanted more camber I'd go with fixed plates. I'm not a track rat, so the adjustability isn't worth the price and potential NVH for me.

Trans mounts: I have Rogue mounts and they've added no NVH whatsoever. They're not a massive upgrade, but they're stiffer than E46 M3 mounts and don't have any of the drawbacks of poly mounts. They were a mild upgrade for me (worth noting than I have a Dinan SSK) but do give a bit more positive engagement and confidence when trying to find a gear. For $60 I'd say they're worth it.

Engine mounts: My car is coming due for engine mounts so I've done a bit of digging on this and found that if you're trying to avoid NVH while tightening things up, the best option would be the 335is mount(s) or 60 durometer mounts for a more aggressive upgrade. Seems like everything else is NVH city.

Can't comment on the toe arms, know nothing about those either.

[Murx]

I have a similar set up B8 but Eibach springs not swift.

I can see how it could become annoying in city driving on bad roads, you could put the stock sway bar back this would soften the front a bit and would provide more compliance over bumps.

Change the tyres to 17in gives a bit more cushioning than 18/19, tyres with a softer sidewall too

80a poly transmission mounts were too much for me, went to rogue rubber and it's a good compromise without increasing NVH
Can't comment on motor mounts but going to stock would help NVH too.

Sounds like the car is well sorted for track, perhaps better idea is swap/sell it for a stock 135i might be the answer it will get expensive buying/changing all those parts out unless you DIY..and a bit of a shame to de-spec it

[APhuze]

Originally Posted by Papa Popov

Misread your original post, didn't realize those parts were already on your car.

I'll preface this by saying I live in South Carolina. I'd put money on Somalia having better roads than us.

Dampers: As others have suggested, Konis sound like the way to go. They're supposed to be much more compliant than Bilsteins plus you get adjustability. Kinda wish that I'd gone with the yellows to better tolerate our 3rd world quality roads. The B8s are tolerable for me, but on really bad roads they're not a good time. Been considering the Dinan rear mounts for the added rear travel, they're a straight upgrade.

Springs: I'd highly recommend the BMWPs. I absolutely love mine. They're a tad bit softer than Eibachs and the drop is much more conservative, perfect for a daily. M-sport springs were too soft despite our bad roads.Run, don't walk, to get them though.

Control arms: The M3 front arms were well worth it for me. I didn't notice much of an NVH increase after installing, and the steering response and additional camber have been awesome. The stock fluid filled bushing suck, but if you're looking to avoid NVH you could go back to the stock upper arm. The lower just adds camber with no drawbacks from what I understand. I don't have experience with the rear guide rods but they're on my to do list to tighten up the rear a bit more.

RSFBs: From my understanding, the M3 subframe bushings won't be worth changing out. Other options might be a bit better performance wise without any added NVH, but the install is a colossal PIA or pretty pricey if you have a shop do it. I would've gone with 2 piece poly if I was going whole-hog on the install, but I'm lazy and went with Whiteline inserts.

Sway bar: Can't comment on the sway bar, I don't know much about what they add in terms of NVH or ride quality. I just picked up an E93 M3 bar as a conservative upgrade, haven't installed yet though. I have heard that the M3 bushings actually ride better than the stock ones though.

Camber plates: I'd say my point still stands about the camber plates. I don't run any at all since my car is a DD, so I was shooting for -1.5 which was achievable with just the M3 arms. If I wanted more camber I'd go with fixed plates. I'm not a track rat, so the adjustability isn't worth the price and potential NVH for me.

Trans mounts: I have Rogue mounts and they've added no NVH whatsoever. They're not a massive upgrade, but they're stiffer than E46 M3 mounts and don't have any of the drawbacks of poly mounts. They were a mild upgrade for me (worth noting than I have a Dinan SSK) but do give a bit more positive engagement and confidence when trying to find a gear. For $60 I'd say they're worth it.

Engine mounts: My car is coming due for engine mounts so I've done a bit of digging on this and found that if you're trying to avoid NVH while tightening things up, the best option would be the 335is mount(s) or 60 durometer mounts for a more aggressive upgrade. Seems like everything else is NVH city.

Can't comment on the toe arms, know nothing about those either.

Thank you for your insight! I'd just like to touch on the Springs section; you mention you'd recommend picking up the BMW springs. Could you give me the part number that would be compatible with my vehicle? I can't seem to differentiate the M-sport springs that came stock with my 135i, and those.

Lol, the Somalia line killed me. I'm going to dig a bit deeper on the koni dampers, i have heard good things from both Koni special actives and Yellows, do you have any transparency on the differences and benefits/drawbacks of either?

[Papa Popov]

Originally Posted by APhuze

Thank you for your insight! I'd just like to touch on the Springs section; you mention you'd recommend picking up the BMW springs. Could you give me the part number that would be compatible with my vehicle? I can't seem to differentiate the M-sport springs that came stock with my 135i, and those.

Lol, the Somalia line killed me. I'm going to dig a bit deeper on the koni dampers, i have heard good things from both Koni special actives and Yellows, do you have any transparency on the differences and benefits/drawbacks of either?

There are multiple part numbers for the springs. When ordering you're supposed to provide the dealer (got mine through Tischer/getBMWparts) with your VIN so that they can match the appropriate springs to your car based on weight (engine, options, etc.). I'd assume that this is to provide a uniform drop across cars with different weights. My 128i w/ moonroof and power heated seats got T1 (softest) fronts and T2 rears.

Based off of an old thread, stock M sport springs are 120/350, BMWP are 160/420, and Eibachs are 148/456. I'd take this with a grain of salt though cause as mentioned above, BMWP spring rates are gonna depend on what's appropriate for your car. There are 4 different rates for BMWP (T1-T4), 6 (don't quote me on this) for stock springs, and the Eibachs are one size fits all (which explains why 135s tend to have more rake than 128s).

Since I went with Bilsteins I didn't do a whole lotta digging into Konis. I do know that the difference between the B6s and B8s is that B8s are slightly shorter accommodate for lowering springs. Willing to bet I'd be the same deal on the Koni side as well.

[gjm120]

Look at post #17 in this thread for some input on BMWP spring rates:
https://www.1addicts.com/forums/show...4#post22187244

It's really nice to have people on here that go thru the trouble of digging into showing this sort of detail.

Unlike with a one size fits all spring, with the BMWP springs you get a relatively consistent drop because they are spec'd for you car's weight. Negative is you'll pay a good bit more for them.

I don't think there is any B6 v B8 type distinction with Koni's. Seems the difference is adjustability and firmness, but no length of spring. Get them dialed in with the correct bumpstops. I think my front bumpstops are from a Z8, rears from an EU car. If you use Tischer (which I recommend) they will get you the correct bumpstops.

[APhuze]

Originally Posted by gjm120

Look at post #17 in this thread for some input on BMWP spring rates:
https://www.1addicts.com/forums/show...4#post22187244

It's really nice to have people on here that go thru the trouble of digging into showing this sort of detail.

Unlike with a one size fits all spring, with the BMWP springs you get a relatively consistent drop because they are spec'd for you car's weight. Negative is you'll pay a good bit more for them.

I don't think there is any B6 v B8 type distinction with Koni's. Seems the difference is adjustability and firmness, but no length of spring. Get them dialed in with the correct bumpstops. I think my front bumpstops are from a Z8, rears from an EU car. If you use Tischer (which I recommend) they will get you the correct bumpstops.

Awesome! thank you so much for refering me to this thread, i'll be sure to dig into the comparisons of the BMWP springs vs the alternatives. It could be as simple as changing up the springs to something a bit softer to make for a happier ride on my end

[Murx]

It could be as simple as changing up the springs to something a bit softer to make for a happier ride on my end

A stiffer swaybar has the effect of increasing spring rate - not quite the same thing as shock springs; but is is a spring of sorts, going back to stock will help soften the ride, but introduce a bit of roll

if you think just changing your springs will cure your issues ,...well good luck with that

[fast1eddy]

Just to clarify , the M3 front control arms do not add any NVH but the M3 tension struts do add a considerable amount. I took mine off and went back to stock. Problem solved.
I am very particular when it comes to ride quality. Here's my setup and it rides and handles very well. Mperformance springs, Koni Special Active dampers , Dinan fixed camber plates , Whiteline rear subframe bushings, M3 arms front and rear minus tension struts , Dinan rear shock mounts , M3 front sway bar plus all new bump stops and upper strut mounts and lower rear shock mounts.
I'd highly recommend this for a street setup with shitty roads. I'm in Edmonton and the roads here are horrible.

[asbrr]

Originally Posted by fast1eddy

Just to clarify , the M3 front control arms do not add any NVH but the M3 tension struts do add a considerable amount. I took mine off and went back to stock. Problem solved.
I am very particular when it comes to ride quality. Here's my setup and it rides and handles very well. Mperformance springs, Koni Special Active dampers , Dinan fixed camber plates , Whiteline rear subframe bushings, M3 arms front and rear minus tension struts , Dinan rear shock mounts , M3 front sway bar plus all new bump stops and upper strut mounts and lower rear shock mounts.
I'd highly recommend this for a street setup with shitty roads. I'm in Edmonton and the roads here are horrible.

This is a good point - I installed both arms each side so never had the luxury of only trying one at a time or removing any.