Ethanol may be the cause of HPFP problems (just an idea)

[takrdown]

I came across this article this morning in Business Week talking about how Ethanol is one of the biggest scams going. There is also a portion of the article that talks specifically about how a woman found carbon buildup in her Mini which was being caused by concentrations of Ethanol is her fuel. The text is below followed by the link to the article:

“Though the media is ignoring it, one can easily find many stories on BMW (BMWG.DE) blogs relating similar problems with fuel systems damaged by the use of ethanol. Certainly that was the case with Christi Jordan and her 2007 Mini. For weeks it was difficult to start; Moritz BMW in Arlington, Tex., inspected it and found severe carbon buildup inside the engine. On her second trip to the mechanics they decided to test the ethanol content of Christi's fuel and found it was much higher than the federally mandated limit of 10%. This time the fuel pump had been destroyed by the ethanol. The repair bill came to $1,200: As in all cases where vehicles are damaged by ethanol, legally the factory warranty no longer applied.

Jim Keppler, Moritz's fixed operations director, said he's had at least 10 other cases of ethanol poisoning in Minis over the past six months. Christi was one of the lucky ones; Moritz covered her repairs. But there's no telling how many motorists across the nation have had to pay for fuel pumps, or fuel systems, that ethanol damaged. Most were probably unaware of the real culprit behind the breakdown, because virtually no repair shop tests the level of ethanol in the gasoline when these fuel system problems occur.”

http://www.businessweek.com/lifestyle/content/may2009/bw20090514_058678.htm

This does make sense to me having thought about it. I’m no mechanic, but the smoking gun for me is that I’ve noticed that it is extremely rare (I’m not sure I’ve heard of any) to have a HPFP failure in Germany or the rest of Europe for that matter. I’m pretty sure they don’t add any Ethanol to their gas because they don’t have an overly powerful corn lobby trying to get their governments to shove this down their throats.

The problems seem pretty plentiful here and we all know that there is at least 10% Ethanol in all of their gas, maybe more as highlighted.

If this is the problem, I’m not sure what BMW can do to fix it. Any mechanics have any ideas of what we can do to mitigate the issues we will see with this Ethanol. Is there an additive that can be added to the fuel to “kill” the Ethanol?

BTW…I did a search for ‘Ethanol’ and only found people discussing gas percentages and what not, but no correlation between this and the HPFP problems. If I missed something I apologize.

[jeremyc74]

The problem isn't the fuel. BMW would have identified that months ago, and they damn sure wouldn't be extending the warranty to 10 years if that were the case.

The problem with the fuel pump is a result of a manufacturing defect. You can bet they have already identified it, and have already raped the supplier for it.

[Haywood]

This is an interesting theory. I've always be leery of Ethanol as I have seen studies that it does rob your engine of performance. I might be wrong, but most engines, including ours, were not designed to handle Ethanol.

[takrdown]

Originally Posted by jeremyc74

The problem isn't the fuel. BMW would have identified that months ago, and they damn sure wouldn't be extending the warranty to 10 years if that were the case.

The problem with the fuel pump is a result of a manufacturing defect. You can bet they have already identified it, and have already raped the supplier for it.

That's what I'm hoping too. My fear is that my car starts production on Friday and I'm scared sh1tless that I'll be replacing this thing over and over.

I just hope the supplier has fixed the issue by now. It's just my nature to become as educated about the problem as possible

[BlackjackMulligan]

Originally Posted by jeremyc74

The problem isn't the fuel. BMW would have identified that months ago, and they damn sure wouldn't be extending the warranty to 10 years if that were the case.

The problem with the fuel pump is a result of a manufacturing defect. You can bet they have already identified it, and have already raped the supplier for it.

+1

I don't think its fuel because mine failed after 1700 miles. That's like only like 7 tanks of gas, I doubt that the ethanol could've acted that quickly.

I also floated the point a couple of weeks ago that many people have their pump fail once but not twice. Many pumps now are being replaced with the same part number pump for cars that were built after 7/2008. So if the ethanol content of gas didn't change, and the part number pump is the same, why aren't more failing multiple times?

[jeremyc74]

Originally Posted by takrdown

I just hope the supplier has fixed the issue by now. It's just my nature to become as educated about the problem as possible

Nothing wrong with that at all.

You can bet that BMW has put considerable engineering efforts toward this problem, and at this point it wouldn't surprise me if they're looking for another supplier, since the current one has obviously had problems getting this under control.

I work in the auto industry, and I can tell you from personal experience that problems like this are taken VERY seriously, and manufacturers like BMW don't put up with reoccuring issues like this for very long.

[takrdown]

I love your quote BTW Jeremy. We have it posted in my office now

[jeremyc74]

Originally Posted by BlackjackMulligan

+1

I don't think its fuel because mine failed after 1700 miles. That's like only like 7 tanks of gas, I doubt that the ethanol could've acted that quickly.

I also floated the point a couple of weeks ago that many people have their pump fail once but not twice. Many pumps now are being replaced with the same part number pump for cars that were built after 7/2008. So if the ethanol content of gas didn't change, and the part number pump is the same, why aren't more failing multiple times?

I'm in the heart of ethanol country, and have nearly 30k miles on my car (more than 15k of it with a JB3 on it) and am still on the original pump. I would imagine that if the fuel was the problem, it would be more regionally isolated than it is, and they would have been able to get a handle on it pretty quickly.

[jeremyc74]

Originally Posted by takrdown

I love your quote BTW Jeremy. We have it posted in my office now

I saw it on another forum somewhere and being a former Marine myself, I couldn't resist. I looked into a little and it seems to be a legit quote from the guy. That's classic Marine Corps PR for you.

[RPM90]

Originally Posted by jeremyc74

The problem isn't the fuel. BMW would have identified that months ago, and they damn sure wouldn't be extending the warranty to 10 years if that were the case.

The problem with the fuel pump is a result of a manufacturing defect. You can bet they have already identified it, and have already raped the supplier for it.

I agree.
I don't see how, chemically, ethanol would be the cause of certain problems, if the engine were tuned to run it.
After all, some cars even run on a blend of 85% ethanol to 15% oil derived petroleum.

Given the pressures these pumps are expected to produce, even slight manufacturing defects or deviations can be much more apparent when the pump is put into daily use.

[sr20Driven92]

This is exactly what i was told by my dealer, and it makes perfect since. The HPFP has seals that were not spec'ed to handle ethanol, when a dealer orders a new HPFP they are told to verify the mfg date before installing the pump to be sure that it contains the redesigned seals. the warranty was extended for to 07's and 08's because the pumps in question were built in that time frame. this does not mean that some 09 will not have the issue, it just mean that fewer should suffer from it.

[JHZR2]

Ethanol may have lower lubricity than regular fuel, and will have higher solvency for some materials (e.g. some rubbers). Even with zero sulfur in europe, there is still a high aromatic content. Take out 10% of what is left (the sulfur-bond aromatics are the best lubricants), and perhaps you have issues.

What is the bio content of Euro fuels?

[jeremyc74]

Originally Posted by JHZR2

Ethanol may have lower lubricity than regular fuel, and will have higher solvency for some materials (e.g. some rubbers). Even with zero sulfur in europe, there is still a high aromatic content. Take out 10% of what is left (the sulfur-bond aromatics are the best lubricants), and perhaps you have issues.

What is the bio content of Euro fuels?

That doesn't really explain why the issue is so "hit or miss" though. If it were the fuel we'd see even more failures than we already do. Ethanol is widely used all over the US, and there are lots of cars with no issues at all.

If the seals are failing because of ethanol, it's because BMW didn't properly consider the US fuel mixtures and specified the wrong seals in the design.

[Tom K.]

Originally Posted by jeremyc74

If the seals are failing because of ethanol, it's because BMW didn't properly consider the US fuel mixtures and specified the wrong seals in the design.

Even that doesn't seem likely as BMW specifically approves 10% ethanol (owners manual, p.107). Of course, if pumps labeled as 10% actually have a higher percentage...
Tom

[1lvr]

I hate ethanshit. it pisses me off every time i fill up. Is there a single oil company not screwing us with this crap? I would drive for miles to get real gas if I only new a station that doesnt use this shit. I am paying top dollar for gas and they are selling me shit. 10% my ass!!! I have always thought it was more, wouldnt suprise me if its 50%

If i ever get the chance to meet an oil exec I swear to GOD I am going punch him right in the nose...

[Lucky1]

Originally Posted by 1lvr

I hate ethanshit. it pisses me off every time i fill up. Is there a single oil company not screwing us with this crap? I would drive for miles to get real gas if I only new a station that doesnt use this shit. I am paying top dollar for gas and they are selling me shit. 10% my ass!!! I have always thought it was more, wouldnt suprise me if its 50%

If i ever get the chance to meet an oil exec I swear to GOD I am going punch him right in the nose...

One used to live in the house across the street from me. We used to be over there all the time. It wasn't until he moved out afterwards that I found out he was the VP of Public Affairs/Relations for a big oil company. I think comments like yours probably illustrate why he kept his profession a secret from his neighbours Anyone seen "Thank You for Smoking"?

[Lucky1]

http://www.businessweek.com/lifestyl...678_page_3.htm


"Though the media is ignoring it, one can easily find many stories on BMW (BMWG.DE) blogs relating similar problems with fuel systems damaged by the use of ethanol."


"...inspected it [Mini 2007] and found severe carbon buildup inside the engine"

Has anyone who had their fuel pump replaced had their fuel tested for the amount of ethanol in the fuel? Probably not. The other thing is if ethanol caused the fuel pumps to fail then would there not also be carbon buildup inside the engine? I guess we won't know for sure until someone's engine goes...

Next person to have their fuel pump fail please have your fuel tested and we'll be able put this to bed or get really mad at our governments

Also, I don't think it matters much if you live close to where ethanol is produced or not...I suspect the situation where person who had their truck die because the gas station pumped him 100% ethanol could have happened anywhere in the US where ethanol is used due to a so called "distribution" problem.

[Alext]

The owners manual recommends not using Ethanol petrol above a certain percentage.

[m3bs]

Originally Posted by 1lvr

I hate ethanshit. it pisses me off every time i fill up. Is there a single oil company not screwing us with this crap? I would drive for miles to get real gas if I only new a station that doesnt use this shit. I am paying top dollar for gas and they are selling me shit. 10% my ass!!! I have always thought it was more, wouldnt suprise me if its 50%

If i ever get the chance to meet an oil exec I swear to GOD I am going punch him right in the nose...

Don't blame the oil companies (I can't believe I said that, but in this case..). The government mandated the use of a certain percentage of ethanol. I believe the number was 7.5% of the total gas supply. If more of the flex-fuel vehcle owners would fill up with E85, they wouldn't have to spike the regular gasoline with it. But then, I can't blame the FF owners for not wanting to suffer the huge drop in fuel economy that comes with E85 use.

[Lucky1]

Originally Posted by m3bs

Don't blame the oil companies (I can't believe I said that, but in this case..).

Why not? Here in Ontario, Canada the government only mandated a 5% requirement for ethanol in fuel. That doesn't mean they can't use MORE than 10% they just can't use less than 5%. Guess how much ethanol is in the fuel blend? Sticker on the pump says "up to 10%". I'm not pro or against ethanol content in fuel, just saying that there is plenty of blame and trickery to go around when it comes to what is said and done with governments, lobby groups and big oil/tobacco/alcohol/firearms etc. Hold all accountable.

[m3bs]

There are a few local independent stations that advertise "no ethanol" fuel, but I have my doubts.

[WhiteOne]

Every time I see a "gasoline" station, I stop and fill her up. I am seeing fewer and fewer though.