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      10-14-2017, 06:15 AM   #177
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr Carrots View Post
Intent isnt really that important since literally every reason to kneel is retarded

Kneeling because the Gentle Giant was murdered by the popo while he was out spreading the Word of Jesus Christ hands up dont shoot

Kneeling because statistics and facts about crime and arrests are racist n shit.

Kneeling because DRUMPF grabbed 2 scoops of the pussy

Kneeling because fuck America n shit

Kneeling because your rightful place as a lesser spotted Caucasian cuck is on your knees in the corner while your wifes bull does his job.

None of these are exactly compelling reasons to look like a virtue signalling idiot .
How would you like people to peacefully and non destructively protest in a way that gathers enough attention then?


How is it worse than ultra nationalists who spout pro US propaganda whilst flying confederate flags at the same time?


Maybe it's just the chemtrails which is creating all these violent reactions to peaceful protests.
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      10-16-2017, 10:24 AM   #178
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Originally Posted by jmg View Post
The same goes for the confederate flag. I think waving that flag for SOME people might be because they are white nationals, or maybe they are just proud of their southern heritage, or maybe they miss slavery. It's all about intent. There was a LOT of debate about the confederate flag and even confederate monuments. Surely not all their supporters are racists right? Maybe people should be looking at intent rather than the subjective meaning that they have attached to an action?

Aren't both confederate flag supporters and national anthem kneelers allowed the same consideration of considering intent before condemnation?
I agree with you, but therein lies the problem. The people waving the confederate flag aren't given the same consideration. If you ask their opponents, the only reason they do that is because they are racists. The only reason for erecting Confederate monuments is to remind the black people of what their place is, actual intent be damned.
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      10-16-2017, 02:21 PM   #179
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Originally Posted by fravel View Post
I agree with you, but therein lies the problem. The people waving the confederate flag aren't given the same consideration. If you ask their opponents, the only reason they do that is because they are racists. The only reason for erecting Confederate monuments is to remind the black people of what their place is, actual intent be damned.
They are given the same consideration by like minded people, much like the kneelers. They are condemned by their detractors, much like the kneelers.
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      10-19-2017, 12:32 PM   #180
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Originally Posted by jmg View Post
They pick it for impact. I never said I don't find it disrespectful.

That being said, intent is very important here. There are those who sit because they hate America, and there are those who sit because they want change for a better America. Then there are all those who exist somewhere in the gradient between the two.
I never took a stance on if they love or hate the country. I just think they way they are protesting is disrespectful. You can effectively protest without being disrespectful.

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Oh boo hoo.. it's a discussion forum on the internet and you're upset about having to hear unwanted opinions? Grow up.
You're not the first person here who have said that though and I'm sure you're not the last but I don't give a shit if my opinion is "unwanted", and if the reason you and the others feel that way is because I'm not American then I give even less of a shit.

If you feel so strongly about it then I look forward to you and everyone else who's made the same sad remark to repeat it word for word when the shoe is on the other foot. Strangely enough all the other people who have said it didn't exactly shy away from expressing their opinions about my country. Maybe because they are hypocrites, or maybe because no one ever told them that their opinion on Sweden is unwanted. My guess is a combination of the two.
Dear Swede, sorry for hurting your feelings. Don't fret though, I tell Americans that I talk to who claim X country is better because they have such great socialized programs that they are free to move there whenever they want to. I don't tell you your problems because frankly I don't care, we have enough over here. Doesn't change the facts that I could give a shit less what someone on the outside looking in thinks.
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      10-19-2017, 02:18 PM   #181
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Originally Posted by Hawkeye View Post
I never took a stance on if they love or hate the country. I just think they way they are protesting is disrespectful. You can effectively protest without being disrespectful.
That's the issue though isn't it? Some find it disrespectful and some don't. I find it disrespectful, but I understand why they do it and why they think it's not. This is where the disconnect is, and it does no one any favors by assuming people think the exact same way as everyone else.
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      10-20-2017, 04:52 AM   #182
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Originally Posted by Hawkeye View Post
Dear Swede, sorry for hurting your feelings. Don't fret though, I tell Americans that I talk to who claim X country is better because they have such great socialized programs that they are free to move there whenever they want to. I don't tell you your problems because frankly I don't care, we have enough over here. Doesn't change the facts that I could give a shit less what someone on the outside looking in thinks.
If you had said in your previous post that you don't give a shit what other people think then I wouldn't have said a word, but that wasn't the case.
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      10-20-2017, 08:45 AM   #183
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Originally Posted by jmg View Post
That's the issue though isn't it? Some find it disrespectful and some don't. I find it disrespectful, but I understand why they do it and why they think it's not. This is where the disconnect is, and it does no one any favors by assuming people think the exact same way as everyone else.
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Originally Posted by Hawkeye View Post
I never took a stance on if they love or hate the country. I just think they way they are protesting is disrespectful. You can effectively protest without being disrespectful.
I don't understand why anyone finds kneeling disrespectful, and I am curious why you do?

People used to kneel to royalty to show respect
People kneel at church to pray because it is a sign of respect
People kneel to propose because it is showing you honor the person you are proposing to
People kneel to show respect in all kinds of ways; hell, until this whole controversy kneeling was even a show of respect for fallen military members specifically...

So, I ask the people here, in all honesty, what is it that you find disrespectful about this:


But not about this:


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      10-20-2017, 09:09 AM   #184
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Originally Posted by Uber Commuter View Post
I don't understand why anyone finds kneeling disrespectful, and I am curious why you do?

People used to kneel to royalty to show respect
People kneel at church to pray because it is a sign of respect
People kneel to propose because it is showing you honor the person you are proposing to
People kneel to show respect in all kinds of ways; hell, until this whole controversy kneeling was even a show of respect for fallen military members specifically...

So, I ask the people here, in all honesty, what is it that you find disrespectful about this:


But not about this:



As a Canadian, it isn't really my fight, but I will say this:

The examples you've mentioned above - I'm not sure if you are trying to obfuscate the issue?

In most if not all of those examples, this is what has always been traditionally expected and done. It was customary to kneel before the King / Queen, to pray, to honour the dead at their grave, etc.

That being said, I can't think of a time when it has been customary to kneel during the national anthem. Rather, it is customary to stand. Not to remain sitting. Some choose to place their hand over their heart, some do not, but it is customary to acknowledge the anthem by not remaining sitting and stand. Not to sit or kneel.

While I'm not overly bothered by it, I do find it a bit disrespectful to the country who gave these people the freedom to do so.

If you can show me when it used to be customary or expected as a sign of respect to kneel during the anthem, then I'll certainly reconsider my views.

In a nutshell, the reason I find it disrespectful, is that I feel these people are using what is supposed to be a moment of consideration for those who have fought to make your country free and honoring the past, and drawing that attention away to say - "look at me. Give your attention to me. I'm more important. What I'm trying to communicate is more important." And I don't agree.
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he's Canadian. By international law we all must worship him and all other products of the country.
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      10-20-2017, 09:24 AM   #185
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So is stretching during the national anthem the same as kneeling in honor to a fallen soldier? What a joke.

https://www.si.com/nfl/2017/09/24/bu...ational-anthem
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      10-20-2017, 09:51 AM   #186
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Uber Commuter View Post
So, I ask the people here, in all honesty, what is it that you find disrespectful about this:

They aren't kneeling out of respect.
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      10-20-2017, 11:03 AM   #187
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Everyone has the right to protest. Stop contradicting your constitution.

It's disrespectful if the person does not even acknowledge the anthem, if they sit on their phone snapgramming, chitchatting with the cheerleaders or whatever then yes i agree, it's damn disrespectful. If they are just kneeling in silent to protest the system then it is understandable surely?
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      10-20-2017, 11:11 AM   #188
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Quote:
Originally Posted by The0pportunist View Post
Everyone has the right to protest. Stop contradicting your constitution.

It's disrespectful if the person does not even acknowledge the anthem, if they sit on their phone snapgramming, chitchatting with the cheerleaders or whatever then yes i agree, it's damn disrespectful. If they are just kneeling in silent to protest the system then it is understandable surely?
They have the right to kneel, no doubt. But comparing it to honoring a fallen soldier? Laughable.

Honestly, I could give two shits. Don't watch football. Though multi-millionaires complaining about oppression is pretty hilarious.
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      10-20-2017, 11:14 AM   #189
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Quote:
Originally Posted by The0pportunist View Post
Everyone has the right to protest. Stop contradicting your constitution.

It's disrespectful if the person does not even acknowledge the anthem, if they sit on their phone snapgramming, chitchatting with the cheerleaders or whatever then yes i agree, it's damn disrespectful. If they are just kneeling in silent to protest the system then it is understandable surely?
No. The reason you stand and remove your hat is to honor and show respect to the people that provided their freedoms. They are not doing it out of respect, in fact they are purposefully disrespecting the flag to try and garner more attention to their issue.

Like I have said, they have the right to protest, but their employers have the right to bench and fire them... but they seem to want to have one without the other. They won't stop whining about Kappernick being jobless... without thinking the reason he hasn't found another team is because he just isn't any good.
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      10-20-2017, 11:45 AM   #190
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hawkeye View Post
No. The reason you stand and remove your hat is to honor and show respect to the people that provided their freedoms. They are not doing it out of respect, in fact they are purposefully disrespecting the flag to try and garner more attention to their issue.

Like I have said, they have the right to protest, but their employers have the right to bench and fire them... but they seem to want to have one without the other. They won't stop whining about Kappernick being jobless... without thinking the reason he hasn't found another team is because he just isn't any good.
I think you are missing the point. The freedoms you enjoy today are the same rights the protesters are exercising. Remember these guys can easily just get on with it, stand for the anthem, earn silly money, enjoy life. But no, they put themselves in the firing line for the sake of unfortunate people who feel they are being treated unfairly and don't have the platform to raise awareness.

Let me put it to you this way: You have the right to bear arms to protect yourself against government tyranny. The system can fail & become corrupted, the freedoms you have takes this into consideration.
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      10-20-2017, 12:06 PM   #191
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Quote:
Originally Posted by The0pportunist View Post
Everyone has the right to protest. Stop contradicting your constitution.

It's disrespectful if the person does not even acknowledge the anthem, if they sit on their phone snapgramming, chitchatting with the cheerleaders or whatever then yes i agree, it's damn disrespectful. If they are just kneeling in silent to protest the system then it is understandable surely?
Quote:
Originally Posted by The0pportunist View Post
I think you are missing the point. The freedoms you enjoy today are the same rights the protesters are exercising. Remember these guys can easily just get on with it, stand for the anthem, earn silly money, enjoy life. But no, they put themselves in the firing line for the sake of unfortunate people who feel they are being treated unfairly and don't have the platform to raise awareness.

Let me put it to you this way: You have the right to bear arms to protect yourself against government tyranny. The system can fail & become corrupted, the freedoms you have takes this into consideration.
You are the one that appears to be missing the point. There is no contradiction of their constitution.

Many have said they have the right to kneel. Course they do. But having a right to do something doesn't make it something worthy of respect or immediately make it understandable, as you appear to be trying to correlate the two.

Having the right to do something doesn't mean people can't take offense to it and consider it disrespectful. If one of the KKK members decides to crawl out from whatever rock they were lately under and decide to chant that blacks are worthless trash and white people are superior...do they have a right to do so under freedom of speech?

Yes, they do. And I'd agree they have the right to do so. Doesn't mean I wouldn't be offended and find it disrespectful.
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he's Canadian. By international law we all must worship him and all other products of the country.
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      10-20-2017, 12:21 PM   #192
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OK, good discussion so far

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Originally Posted by Joekerr View Post
The examples you've mentioned above - I'm not sure if you are trying to obfuscate the issue?
I'm not, I was simply trying to provide some context. Kneeling is not meant as a sign of disrespect by any of the above (players included) it is meant as a respectful way to still make their point.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Joekerr View Post
That being said, I can't think of a time when it has been customary to kneel during the national anthem. Rather, it is customary to stand. Not to remain sitting. Some choose to place their hand over their heart, some do not, but it is customary to acknowledge the anthem by not remaining sitting and stand. Not to sit or kneel.

While I'm not overly bothered by it, I do find it a bit disrespectful to the country who gave these people the freedom to do so.

If you can show me when it used to be customary or expected as a sign of respect to kneel during the anthem, then I'll certainly reconsider my views.

In a nutshell, the reason I find it disrespectful, is that I feel these people are using what is supposed to be a moment of consideration for those who have fought to make your country free and honoring the past, and drawing that attention away to say - "look at me. Give your attention to me. I'm more important. What I'm trying to communicate is more important." And I don't agree.
OK, so I think that may be the best explanation I've seen to date, thanks.

I disagree that it is disrespectful, but I do see the rest of your point. "taking over" what is already a moment of reflection makes it more about them than the soldiers I can understand for sure (I was a soldier myself).

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Originally Posted by DonaldPump View Post
So is stretching during the national anthem the same as kneeling in honor to a fallen soldier? What a joke.
No, and I agree with you completely on that one. Be respectful in some form, not just continuing to do whatever you want.

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Originally Posted by CTinline-six View Post
They aren't kneeling out of respect.
See, I think a lot of people believe this, and you have a right to your opinion; but the entire point of kneeling was to be respectful instead of disrespecting anyone:
https://www.cbssports.com/nfl/news/h...g-to-kneeling/

Quote:
Originally Posted by The0pportunist View Post
Everyone has the right to protest. Stop contradicting your constitution.

It's disrespectful if the person does not even acknowledge the anthem, if they sit on their phone snapgramming, chitchatting with the cheerleaders or whatever then yes i agree, it's damn disrespectful. If they are just kneeling in silent to protest the system then it is understandable surely?
To me it's this^

Like the guy above still stretching instead of recognizing the moment; those things are disrespect. Kneeling is, to me, the combination of remaining respectful and still making your point.

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      10-20-2017, 12:21 PM   #193
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Originally Posted by Joekerr View Post
You are the one that appears to be missing the point. There is no contradiction of their constitution.

Many have said they have the right to kneel. Course they do. But having a right to do something doesn't make it something worthy of respect or immediately make it understandable, as you appear to be trying to correlate the two.

Having the right to do something doesn't mean people can't take offense to it and consider it disrespectful. If one of the KKK members decides to crawl out from whatever rock they were lately under and decide to chant that blacks are worthless trash and white people are superior...do they have a right to do so under freedom of speech?

Yes, they do. And I'd agree they have the right to do so. Doesn't mean I wouldn't be offended and find it disrespectful.
Are you really comparing an athlete silently protesting against oppression in his own country and a KKK member voicing derogatory opinions?

I think the world with overwhelming majority would agree the latter is deeply offensive.

If you think both are equally offensive then lets just agree to disagree on this one...
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      10-20-2017, 12:45 PM   #194
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Quote:
Originally Posted by The0pportunist View Post
Are you really comparing an athlete silently protesting against oppression in his own country and a KKK member voicing derogatory opinions?

I think the world with overwhelming majority would agree the latter is deeply offensive.

If you think both are equally offensive then lets just agree to disagree on this one...
Reading your arguments, I'm going to put this simply:

I'm starting to wonder if perhaps the ratio of Pints of beer you've consumed vs number of brain cells has started to lean in favour of the former.

You are the one who started on about rights and freedoms. I have provided an example of why first of all, this is not what the discussion is about. I think most acknowledge everyone has a right to kneel (or do cartwheels, or whatever they want really). The question is whether it is disrespectful, not whether they have a right to do so.

I used another example of a right and drew a link to why exercising that right is still considered disrespectful, even though it remains their right to exercise. This was an attempt to make you understand. No where did I try to draw a link to the level of disrespect / offensiveness in both cases.
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he's Canadian. By international law we all must worship him and all other products of the country.
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      10-20-2017, 12:47 PM   #195
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Quote:
Originally Posted by The0pportunist View Post
Are you really comparing an athlete silently protesting against oppression in his own country and a KKK member voicing derogatory opinions?

I think the world with overwhelming majority would agree the latter is deeply offensive.

If you think both are equally offensive then lets just agree to disagree on this one...
No, he's comparing two things that some people (albeit different groups) might find offensive/disrespectful and highlighting how both things are entirely within the rights of US citizens to do, while at the same time it is entirely within the rights of other citizens to find such actions as disrespectful.

"The 1st Amendment protects you from the government, not from me." -Trace Adkins
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      10-20-2017, 01:03 PM   #196
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Joekerr View Post
Reading your arguments, I'm going to put this simply:

I'm starting to wonder if perhaps the ratio of Pints of beer you've consumed vs number of brain cells has started to lean in favour of the former.

You are the one who started on about rights and freedoms. I have provided an example of why first of all, this is not what the discussion is about. I think most acknowledge everyone has a right to kneel (or do cartwheels, or whatever they want really). The question is whether it is disrespectful, not whether they have a right to do so.

I used another example of a right and drew a link to why exercising that right is still considered disrespectful, even though it remains their right to exercise. This was an attempt to make you understand. No where did I try to draw a link to the level of disrespect / offensiveness in both cases.
There is no need to draw the comparison then. The point you are making is obvious. Even a kid knows they can express any opinion they wish but may very well offend someone. Why even bring up KKK - you tainted this thread.

The question i am really asking is WHY are people offended by people silently protesting. It's within their rights and their reasoning is clear.
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      10-20-2017, 01:09 PM   #197
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Quote:
Originally Posted by The0pportunist View Post
There is no need to draw the comparison then. The point you are making is obvious. Even a kid knows they can express any opinion they wish but may very well offend someone. Why even bring up KKK - you tainted this thread.

The question i am really asking is WHY are people offended by people silently protesting. It's within their rights and their reasoning is clear.
Clearly, my point is still not obvious to you. Otherwise, you wouldn't have said this, because you keep trying to correlate the two as though somehow if someone has the right to do something, then people shouldn't get offended.

I'm done beating my head against a rock. If you don't get it by now, you never will.
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      10-20-2017, 01:21 PM   #198
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The question i am really asking is WHY are people offended by people silently protesting. It's within their rights and their reasoning is clear.
Great question. Why.
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