Advice

[Grimlock85]

Looking to improve the breathing for my 1. As of now, car came with the BMW PE from the previous owner. I just got a used Accessport so i'm running sport 1 for now. I've got a charge pipe on its way but i'm wondering if I should be looking into a downpipe or a FMIC first. Priority for me wouldn't be power, instead it's overall responsiveness from the engine; so throttle response (its a MT, so response is my #1 priority).

Or someone mentioned that I should look into custom tuning with cobb for the engines response time (initial tip-in, wastegate closure sooner).

Any advice?

[Zombie1]

Originally Posted by nom_nom_time

Looking to improve the breathing for my 1. As of now, car came with the BMW PE from the previous owner. I just got a used Accessport so i'm running sport 1 for now. I've got a charge pipe on its way but i'm wondering if I should be looking into a downpipe or a FMIC first. Priority for me wouldn't be power, instead it's overall responsiveness from the engine; so throttle response (its a MT, so response is my #1 priority).

Or someone mentioned that I should look into custom tuning with cobb for the engines response time (initial tip-in, wastegate closure sooner).

Any advice?

You should put a the charge pipe on before turning up the boost as that's a major weak point that gets exposed when running more boost then stock. FMIC will let you do multiple WOT pulls before heat soaking(stock unit is garbage) that's a big bump in power over stage 1. I just installed downpipes my self nice bump in power over stage 1+(FMIC cobb maps) car is way more responsive and spools a lot quicker with no cats causing back pressure. A custom tune is a MUST to get the most out of your car. Hope this helps.

[sykosis]

If you can swing it, do the charge pipe and the FMIC at the same time since one is connected to the other. DPs can come after that then you can run Cobb Stage 2+ for a pretty decent kick in the balls.

[Grimlock85]

Thanks for the posts

I'm not particularly looking for big power boosts. I much rather spend the money to have the engine respond quicker.

[jturboawd]

If you use the jb4 you can set the wastegates to increase spool. Also, typically a more advanced timing curve will make the car respond quicker. Timing typically decreases with boost, perhaps you could use the jb4 with back end flash map. Then use map 6 to set up a very linear boost curve. It would certainly reduced the area under the curve, it would be slower, but it might be pretty fun to drive.

Also, lower rotating mass and lighter weight overall always made my cars feel quicker/more responsive.

[mike@x-ph.com]

Downpipe will give you more HP and louder exhaust tone.
FMIC will give you more consistency
It really depends on your goals and priorities.

[135TX]

It seems no one touched on a high flow panel filter will help the car breath easier (more responsive) and exhaust, mainly downpipe, especially cat less. those would be the firsts for throttle response. Then id spend 250 on an e tune before going for FMIC, as you can increase your response now for less money. then go FMIC later and have them retune for free. this is how im going about it so im biased..

[Cavpilot2k]

Originally Posted by 135TX

It seems no one touched on a high flow panel filter will help the car breath easier (more responsive) and exhaust, mainly downpipe, especially cat less. those would be the firsts for throttle response. Then id spend 250 on an e tune before going for FMIC, as you can increase your response now for less money. then go FMIC later and have them retune for free. this is how im going about it so im biased..

Yeah, there is a misconception that FMIC generates power. It doesn't. A better FMIC will simply allow you to run hard longer before you start to see a performance degradation from heat soak. It does nothing to "create" or increase power.

True, an upgraded FMIC might cool your intake air a few more degrees than stock after it gets heated by the turbos, but its real purpose is only mitigating the effects of heat soak, thereby prolonging top end performance rather than increasing output.

[Ultimateone]

Originally Posted by Cavpilot2k

Yeah, there is a misconception that FMIC generates power. It doesn't. A better FMIC will simply allow you to run hard longer before you start to see a performance degradation from heat soak. It does nothing to "create" or increase power.

That's incorrect, I have been involved in multiple FMIC tests for different cars and some actually add on some HP.

[135TX]

Originally Posted by Ultimateone

That's incorrect, I have been involved in multiple FMIC tests for different cars and some actually add on some HP.

Ceterus paribus, cooler air+ less pressure drop = ++++HP

Always have understood this to mean you can run higher boost also therefore compounding the above equation

[mike@x-ph.com]

Originally Posted by Cavpilot2k

Yeah, there is a misconception that FMIC generates power. It doesn't. A better FMIC will simply allow you to run hard longer before you start to see a performance degradation from heat soak. It does nothing to "create" or increase power.

True, an upgraded FMIC might cool your intake air a few more degrees than stock after it gets heated by the turbos, but its real purpose is only mitigating the effects of heat soak, thereby prolonging top end performance rather than increasing output.

Originally Posted by Ultimateone

That's incorrect, I have been involved in multiple FMIC tests for different cars and some actually add on some HP.

A better FMIC will generate power. Also a better charge pipe will get you faster response time -> faster car -> more power.
That being said, the gains are negligible compared to what you are getting when getting an FMIC ( cooling) or Charge pipe ( reliability) that it often gets ignored.
Same as some tunes will help give you better MPG. You rarely see anyone talking about it because the main reason for the tune is more HP rather than the extra 1-2 MPG that you will be getting.

[Freon]

The car's factory ECU targets a particular air mass flow or "load" (equivalent concepts), not boost level, so colder air from a better FMIC will actually lead to lower boost to equal the air flow back out. It may take some time for the ECU to figure that out, so a quick swap A/B test on the dyno in the short term may give you a false impression.

However, there are other things a FMIC adds that could lead to increased power. Or some tuning devices could change the car to a boost target instead of airflow target. JB may do that, but reflashes probably won't.

Keep in mind if you are targeting boost and add a FMIC you've just turned the tune's aggressiveness up by increasing air mass flow and cylinder load by about the percentage of temperature drop in Kelvin. I.e. 10C drop from 45C to 35C is about a 3% increase in load at the same boost level. Again, there are a few other things that could contribute to increased power.

[awns729]

Originally Posted by Freon

The car's factory ECU targets a particular air mass flow or "load" (equivalent concepts), not boost level, so colder air from a better FMIC will actually lead to lower boost to equal the air flow back out. It may take some time for the ECU to figure that out, so a quick swap A/B test on the dyno in the short term may give you a false impression.

However, there are other things a FMIC adds that could lead to increased power. Or some tuning devices could change the car to a boost target instead of airflow target. JB may do that, but reflashes probably won't.

Keep in mind if you are targeting boost and add a FMIC you've just turned the tune's aggressiveness up by increasing air mass flow and cylinder load by about the percentage of temperature drop in Kelvin. I.e. 10C drop from 45C to 35C is about a 3% increase in load at the same boost level. Again, there are a few other things that could contribute to increased power.

What exactly does cylinder load mean?

[Cavpilot2k]

I understand the theory that makes gains possible with improved FMIC, I just have never seen a measurable real-world power gain from just an IC. I have seen noticeable and measurable increase in how long you can play before heat soak starts to sap power. So yeah, can you gain a couple HP from upgradedFMIC? Maybe. Will it be noticeable? Not likely. But you'll be able to work the engine harder, longer.
I could be wrong, an maybe there are some amazing FMICs out there that make my experience outdated, but I see FMIC as an important supporting mod, not a power mod. Therefore, I wouldn't bother with one before other more power-generating mods like a Tune and DP, which could use the additional support of an upgraded IC. Adding an upgraded IC before those two will result in negligible gains, if any.
My two cents. I won't be offended if you disagree.

[Freon]

Originally Posted by awns729

What exactly does cylinder load mean?

To do the chemistry of an internal combustion engine, you need to determine moles of the air so you know how many moles of fuel to inject for a given combustion event. For a mass air flow engine the air flow is measured directly in grams per second, then you can divide by RPM and half the number of cylinders to figure out how much air is in the cylinders during a combustion event. A speed density engine measures things like manifold air pressure, temperature, and a lookup table of volumetric efficiency to calculate mass air flow. From there, they work roughly identically...

The fuel/air chemistry is properly calculated using moles, but it's *directly* related to mass via a few constants (ex. a mole of air is right about 29 grams regardless of any dynamics of a car engine). So if airflow is 300 g/s at 5000 rpm as determined by a MAF sensor or a speed-density program, engine load might be considered to be 3.6g (factor label math removes the time dimension, so we just get "grams"). That should mean each cylinder in a 6 cylinder 4 stroke engine has 1.2 grams of air every time the cylinder has a power stroke. That can be used to determine you might need 0.1 gram of fuel to reach a 12:1 air/fuel ratio. The ECU figures out how long to pulse the injector based on fuel pressure to make it spray precisely 0.1 grams of fuel.

The 3.6g number directly relates to potential for torque output. The per cylinder load of 1.2g is also pretty closely related, ignoring knock/detonation, the stresses on some components like the connecting rods and also peak cylinder pressure after accounting for the actual static volume of the cylinder (=0.5 liters for our engines).

[Freon]

Originally Posted by Cavpilot2k

I understand the theory that makes gains possible with improved FMIC, I just have never seen a measurable real-world power gain from just an IC. I have seen noticeable and measurable increase in how long you can play before heat soak starts to sap power. So yeah, can you gain a couple HP from upgradedFMIC? Maybe. Will it be noticeable? Not likely. But you'll be able to work the engine harder, longer.
I could be wrong, an maybe there are some amazing FMICs out there that make my experience outdated, but I see FMIC as an important supporting mod, not a power mod.

Colder air is less likely to detonate. You can potentially run slightly more timing with colder air of an equal mass, resulting in potential for more engine output. I'd hazard a guess at full throttle almost all pump gas cars rarely reach MBT (minimum best timing), so the colder the air as it enters the cylinder, the better. To get this gain you may need a new tune. For example, Cobb includes maps for cars with intercoolers. It's also possible, and I think likely, that you'll see less timing adjustments in your logs even without a fresh tune meaning you get more timing.

The lower pressure drop you're likely to see with an aftermarket intercooler corresponds with less energy needing to be harvested from the exhaust turbine. That means the wastegate is opened further which lowers back pressure. This can lead to slight improvements on volumetric efficiency for the same reason a low restriction exhaust improves power. IC and intake restriction is just as much a factor as exhaust restriction in the total efficiency of an engine. The intake and exhaust systems are loosely coupled by the turbocharger afterall, so the less restriction you have in the intake system (even including your air filter and intakes) the less exhaust restriction you effectively have via the turbine.

And you're right about heat over time as well. Every degree of heat into your charge air contributes to more heat being depositing into, ultimately, your coolant and oil. There's lots of mass of aluminum engine block, cylinder head, coolant, and oil to slow down the heat soaking of the total engine package, but over time it will reach a higher equilibrium temperature due to higher charge air temperature. I'd guess not by much, though.

These are all smaller factors that add up.

[Cavpilot2k]

Well, in that case I defer to the voices of more detailed knowledge and experience. Mine is, admittedly a little dated, and mostly with turbo Diesel engines. The 135 is the first turbo gasoline car I've had in many-a-year.

Cheers!