JB3 negative claims (?)

[yandy]

Originally Posted by jeremyc74

Put up or shut up Shiv. I'm not defending ANYONE. I'm calling you out point blank on that statement you just made. Now stop dancing and post the proof you said you could easly show us all.

you sure do talk tough.. ha. Defending? really? lol, ... good night dude, don't have a heart attack..

http://bit.ly/coVJRb

[jeremyc74]

Originally Posted by yandyr

you sure do talk tough.. ha. Defending? really? lol, ... good night dude, don't have a heart attack..

http://bit.ly/coVJRb

Tough? What the hell is that supposed to mean? Do you feel threatened by me asking Shiv to make good on a claim he made?

I'm still not sure exactly what grounds you're trying to defend him on. He made a statement and I want to see him back it up. Unless you've got something to add to it, why don't you take a step back and let him speak for himself instead of making some lame ass personal attack on me?

Are you really so insecure that you're getting offended when I question a tuner that you like that you feel the need to start throwing around childish insults? Get a grip on yourself.

[OpenFlash]

Whoa pal. You're going off the deep end here. Let's leave yanyr alone and just follow up on my last request. I don't have a huge amount of time so all I'm asking you is to tell me what claims of mine that you'd like me to back up with supporting fact. This is the second time I'm requesting this. Try not to attack me until after you don't get the info that you are looking for. Unfortunately I can't read your mind.

[yandy]

Originally Posted by jeremyc74

Tough? What the hell is that supposed to mean? Do you feel threatened by me asking Shiv to make good on a claim he made?

I'm still not sure exactly what grounds you're trying to defend him on. He made a statement and I want to see him back it up. Unless you've got something to add to it, why don't you take a step back and let him speak for himself instead of making some lame ass personal attack on me?

Are you really so insecure that you're getting offended when I question a tuner that you like that you feel the need to start throwing around childish insults? Get a grip on yourself.

oh boy, since you're so good at asking questions. Maybe you're good at answering.. where do I defend anyone? all I stated was that maybe you should take it a bit easy.. it's just a freaking tune.. but ok...

Oh yea, I chose the procede over the JB3.. that must mean I defend him.. seriously dude.. It's not worth my time.. I hope you find your answers..

but as Shiv stated, I'll get out of this just get back on topic, wouldn't want you to burst vein over this... cya

[MadMan77]

I love these kind of threads. Pointless banter between 2+ people and when it is all said and done nothing more than post counts have been achieved.

[egainer]

yeah so far i see nothing at all. I see shiv asking for things people don't believe, and I see people responding calling him low and a liar.

what a waste of space.

ask a damn question to him so he can answer it, or just quit posting.

and stop quoting every post saying this is "shit" he said. he said NOTHING in those posts worth quoting.

and for the record, i'm curious about what everyone here thinks is bs. If he has people telling him they have those experiences with jb3, oh well. I'm sure burger has people telling them they have problems with procede.

[mshahidz]

Regardless of the situation, you guys are only creating another thread in which nothing useful is achieved...asking Shiv to post his "evidence" (if he has any) is just adding fuel to the fire...why even go that route? It will result in mike coming in to defend himself, and you will have another 20 page pillow fight between the 2 tuners.

[JBurer]

I agree. This is not what I had in mind when I started this thread.

I have received direct answers to most of the questions I've asked - except one directed to Shiv regarding the tune and detectability by the dealer.

My question for Shiv:
As long as there is no hardware left on the car, I clear the codes properly and remove the aftermarket ECU box, will my SA be able to detect the tune?

Originally Posted by mohammadz

Regardless of the situation, you guys are only creating another thread in which nothing useful is achieved...asking Shiv to post his "evidence" (if he has any) is just adding fuel to the fire...why even go that route? It will result in mike coming in to defend himself, and you will have another 20 page pillow fight between the 2 tuners.

[ridin135]

Originally Posted by JBurer

I agree. This is not what I had in mind when I started this thread.

I have received direct answers to most of the questions I've asked - except one directed to Shiv regarding the tune and detectability by the dealer.

My question for Shiv:
As long as there is no hardware left on the car, I clear the codes properly and remove the aftermarket ECU box, will my SA be able to detect the tune?

No one is going to guaruntee 100% invisibilty, but the short answer is they will most likely not detect it if taken out, but there is always a small cahnce.

[Ilma]

Originally Posted by JBurer

I agree. This is not what I had in mind when I started this thread.

I have received direct answers to most of the questions I've asked - except one directed to Shiv regarding the tune and detectability by the dealer.

My question for Shiv:
As long as there is no hardware left on the car, I clear the codes properly and remove the aftermarket ECU box, will my SA be able to detect the tune?

It's not your service advisor that is the problem......it's BMW's ability to tap into your DME via a network connection through the dealership network.

This has been discussed on other threads and I even posted an email I received from Bavarian Technic which stated there was no guarantee of diagnostic invisibility since only BMW engineers truly know what gets downloaded during a FASTA network download.

I can't speak for Shiv's claim to diagnostic invisibility.

There is no definitive proof that I have seen and the most likely answer is that unless you have some kind of major warranty claim where they suspect you had a tune, they will probably not interrogate your DME to that level.

But I will say this......I have personally seen evidence that the dealer opened up my ECU compartment probably to check for the presence of a tune.

I took mine out and never had a problem and I have had turbos replaced.

But I don't think they did a FASTA download on my car because the work order should have listed this procedure and it did not.

[Mike@N54Tuning.com]

Originally Posted by shiv@vishnu

BBK-- those claims are no-nitrous claims. Both 6at and mt running md 11s at mid 120s with no nitrous used. Just all turbo. shiv

Correct me if I am wrong but didn't OldBooster run 11.46@124 MPH w/meth only? (No No2) which is lower then your 11.502.

Mike

[escobar929]

Originally Posted by MadMan77

I love these kind of threads. Pointless banter between 2+ people and when it is all said and done nothing more than post counts have been achieved.

and the greatest of all is you can go into any car forum and there will be thousands among thousands of threads exactly like this one. People arguing about whats the better product and the makers of the product always love jumping in the mud and getting dirty

lots of hours of work boredom were put to good use during the glory days of My350z FI section and like you said, at the end of the day, everyone has a bigger post count, nothing else is ever achieved

[shodanusmc]

The bottom line is that nothing is invisible if the dealer wants to find it. If you want a tune that you have to remove, fo for it. Even removed, you are not really safe. Hope you have a good relationship with your Service Director, or get a Dinan Tune at a dealer where your work is being done. You spend $35-50000 for a 1 Series, and you try to save a few bucks on a tune.

[JBurer]

Thanks for the feedback, Ilma - that comment is interesting on your dealer inspecting the ECU compartment!

What caused the turbo failure?

Originally Posted by Ilma

It's not your service advisor that is the problem......it's BMW's ability to tap into your DME via a network connection through the dealership network.

This has been discussed on other threads and I even posted an email I received from Bavarian Technic which stated there was no guarantee of diagnostic invisibility since only BMW engineers truly know what gets downloaded during a FASTA network download.

I can't speak for Shiv's claim to diagnostic invisibility.

There is no definitive proof that I have seen and the most likely answer is that unless you have some kind of major warranty claim where they suspect you had a tune, they will probably not interrogate your DME to that level.

But I will say this......I have personally seen evidence that the dealer opened up my ECU compartment probably to check for the presence of a tune.

I took mine out and never had a problem and I have had turbos replaced.

But I don't think they did a FASTA download on my car because the work order should have listed this procedure and it did not.

[JBurer]

Originally Posted by shodanusmc

You spend $35-50000 for a 1 Series, and you try to save a few bucks on a tune.

You missed the mark on this one. I just want to know exactly what I'm getting into. If they're truely invisible, then that's great... if not, I want to know that.

Regarding Dinan vs JB3 or Procede - my understanding is Dinan's more conservative. Ignoring the cost, it's not an apples-to-apples comparison.

[JBurer]

refined

Originally Posted by JBurer

I agree. This is not what I had in mind when I started this thread.

I have received direct answers to most of the questions I've asked - except one directed to Shiv regarding the tune and detectability by the dealer.

My question for Shiv:
As long as there is no hardware left on the car, I clear the codes properly and remove the aftermarket ECU box, will BMW be able to detect the tune?

[shodanusmc]

Originally Posted by JBurer

You missed the mark on this one. I just want to know exactly what I'm getting into. If they're truely invisible, then that's great... if not, I want to know that.

Regarding Dinan vs JB3 or Procede - my understanding is Dinan's more conservative. Ignoring the cost, it's not an apples-to-apples comparison.

Understood. No, they are not invisible of the dealership data mines. They may look invisible to you and the tool, but not really. At least they will cover a window regulator and can't blame it on a tune.

Just buy a basic stock Vette.

[Ilma]

Originally Posted by JBurer

Thanks for the feedback, Ilma - that comment is interesting on your dealer inspecting the ECU compartment!

What caused the turbo failure?

Wasn't a turbo failure at all.

Just had noisy turbos and mentioned it to the dealer when I went in for my annual service. They went ahead and replaced them, but told me afterwards that there didn't seem to be anything wrong with the old ones in terms of excessive shaft play or compressor damage.

[ksparks]

Originally Posted by michifan

I'm not trying to be argumentative, but you should read your own warranty as well as your protection under federal law (specifically the Magnuson-Moss Warranty Act).

BMW does not have to fix, under warranty, a part that has been compromised by a customer modification. They do, however, have to be able to demonstrate that the customer modification directly led to the malfunction. In the case of Dinan, they will perform repairs to your car in the case that BMW finds that their modification created a malfunction. BMW cannot treat a Dinan tune differently than a BMS tune.

Given their exposure, Dinan not only charges a substantial premium for their tunes, but they also mandate a number of cooling, intake, exhaust and other modifications (again at ultra-premium pricing) to provide horsepower close to what Proceed and BMS provides.

Terry and Shiv provide no warranty, implied or stated, for their products and there is a definite risk v reward scenario at play. I know Terry is pretty conservative when it comes to giving advice on maps - and surely his business would crumble quickly if his tunes (by themselves) created significant engine problems.

For the overwhelming majority of people looking at BMS, Dinan or Proceed, they just want a bit more power and are unlikely to put the extra modifications in place (downpipes, exhaust, FMIC, intake, OCC) that would get them an extra 100 HP.

End of day, the car belongs to you and you have a contract with BMW that is protected by Federal Law. If you overboost your engine, they can deny warranty work to fix it. But if you just have a number of parts, at worst I've heard dealers require that you remove certain aftermarket parts before they'll perform any warranty work.

i understand with the Magnuson Moss Act is, and with that said, BMW can void your powertrain warranty if there is evidence of a tune. To fight BMW in court, would probably cost the same as blowing up our turbos... $$$

my point is if you blow your engine, tranny, turbos (not common) and have evidence of a tune, be prepared to pony up some major dollars. I am not talking about a hpfp replacement or other minor bullshit.

I agee with your point that most people with these tunes want a little extra power. That's why if I do decide to do it, it will be Dinan. I do not need the most agressive tune being that my car is not a dyno queen, or frequently tracked. If all these tunes cost $2k, people would still get them and be more than happy with what they have. To me getting an additional 60hp is something that changes the entire driving experience.

To me, (and not everyone) the additional amount spent for the insurance and peace of mind, is money well spent. If nothing goes wrong (which it probably won't) JB3, PROcede, GIAC or SSST will prove to be an awesome decision...
But the second anyone has to jump through hoops working with reps, making phonecalls and praying for the warranty to be reinstated, would probably regret not paying that extra cash. just my .02

[JBurer]

Originally Posted by ksparks

i understand with the Magnuson Moss Act is, and with that said, BMW can void your powertrain warranty if there is evidence of a tune. To fight BMW in court, would probably cost the same as blowing up our turbos... $$$

my point is if you blow your engine, tranny, turbos (not common) and have evidence of a tune, be prepared to pony up some major dollars. I am not talking about a hpfp replacement or other minor bullshit.

I agee with your point that most people with these tunes want a little extra power. That's why if I do decide to do it, it will be Dinan. I do not need the most agressive tune being that my car is not a dyno queen, or frequently tracked. If all these tunes cost $2k, people would still get them and be more than happy with what they have. To me getting an additional 60hp is something that changes the entire driving experience.

To me, (and not everyone) the additional amount spent for the insurance and peace of mind, is money well spent. If nothing goes wrong (which it probably won't) JB3, PROcede, GIAC or SSST will prove to be an awesome decision...
But the second anyone has to jump through hoops working with reps, making phonecalls and praying for the warranty to be reinstated, would probably regret not paying that extra cash. just my .02

Completely agree.

I think that's a good place to put this to bed. Moderators - would you please close this thread?