[nexus66]

Here's a problem for y'all to watch out for...

Last night, my air-con (climate) sprung a major leak, and pumped all the refridgant gas into the passenger cabin!!!!!!!

I had just got into the car and started the engine, when a heard a strange noise (sounded like a cd skipping/searching - a kind of "phwish" noise ) and the cabin started getting all misty/cloudy. I stopped the engine and jumped out the car and all I could smell was a sort of aerosol smell. The pressurised air-con system had sprung a leak and the fan had pumped all the escaping gas into the cabin!!

I had to drive the car home, but luckily (for here in Scotland) it was a nice night so could drive home with the windows open. When I got home I had a serious headache from the gas!

Anyone know what gas BMW put into the air-con system, and more importantly what health issues there are with it?

I've still to contact the dealer to get it fixed, but I will certainly be contacting BMW UK about this safety issue! Anyone got any good contact details for BMW UK or BMW AG???

[Jesse Wilson]

Isn't it just R-134A?

R134a must not be allowed to escape in
enclosed areas. Although R134a is not toxic,
there is a danger of suffocation as gaseous
refrigerant is heavier than air.


Jesse

[ny13260]

It is R134a. "Green freon" - Supposed "friendly" for the athmosphere, nevertheless not very good if you take a good breath of it.

If you are still alive , got to your dealer asap and fix.
Don't restart the aircond. Without gaz , you might damage the compressor.

ny

[vivekk]

Only the standard BMW customer service number nexus:
BMW UK: Freephone 0800 325600

[E90Fleet]

A friend had this happen in his new golf last week

They just replaced a part with a small hole in it and refilled the system, the serice tech said its not uncommon for this to happen

[spydrz]

Originally Posted by E90Fleet

the serice tech said its not uncommon for this to happen

It's kind of scary to think that the a/c could do this at any time...

[nexus66]

Originally Posted by ny13260

If you are still alive

Nope - I didn't make it! I am talking to you from the "other side"! Hey - can I be the first un-dead member of E90Post??

I made sure to keep the A/C button off! That won't use the compressor will it?

I'm gonna go look up some info on this R134A...

Kinda bad design though, if a leak gets sucked into the cabin by the fan? I don't know a lot about car a/c but all the pipework is only under the bonnet isn't it??

I thought there'd be more to it than replace the part and re-fill... It doesn't sound like a safe thing to happen for them to be so blase about it... Maybes when I find out more about this gas...

[E90Fleet]

Think about how the aircon works

Basically you got gas that travels from a pump (compressor) to a heat exchanger, then back to the compressor

The air from outside flows through the heat exchanger , gives its heat to the gas on the inside of the heat exchager, and then goes into your cabin

So if a leak occurs in the heat exchanger, then there is no where for the gas to go but into the cabin

[E90Fleet]

Originally Posted by spydrz

It's kind of scary to think that the a/c could do this at any time...

Well thats just the nature of air-cons and many many other things one comes in contact with every day

[ny13260]

nexus >>> yes if you turn off your a/c , compressor wont work.

Any news, since then, on the fixing?

spydrz>>> I agree with E90fleet, that is one risk, nothing scary. Just think of your fridge, there is some R134a very close to you food !

[E90Fleet]

Originally Posted by ny13260

spydrz>>> I agree with E90fleet, that is one risk, nothing scary. Just think of your fridge, there is some R134a very close to you food !

And if its a old fridge then there is some very scary stuf there

[Squawks]

R134A is one of the most safe refrigerants out in the market, but it is still dangerous to inhale.

If inhaled enough (and you must inhale quite a lot), you will lose consciousness (i.e. you become anesthetized) and your senses. If prolonged further, you'll eventually die from cardiac sensitization.

It has been said that all it takes to kill is just 0.4% of R134A (4000 parts per million). Even that is debatable to this day.

Besides that, you should be fine. There is no carcinogenicity (you did not increase your chances of cancer) and there is no teratogenicity (you did not become sterilized in the process). At worst you may suffer from subchronic symptoms (i.e. your headaches) but that should go away once your body recuperates. In most cases it's either death, or no death. I wouldn't be surprised if you pushed forward a civil case against BMW and won quite a bit of money from compensatory and punitive damages (i.e. your headaches from the exposed refrigerant). You can even pretend you're still having such mental problems and can never be the same anymore. Last week an old lady was awarded a little over $250,000,000 because her husband died from Merck's arthritis painkiller, Vioxx. But because of Texas's "cap laws" she was only awarded about 17 million.

In a BMW 5 series, if the compressor happens to break and all 3.2 lbs of R134A escaped directly into the cabin, assuming the windows and moonroof are closed - that's enough R134A to kill 32 adults.

I don't intend to stir up panic - these things don't happen too often and it's relatively hard to be killed by refridgerants. As someone already mentioned, it's heavier than air - meaning the concentration of R134A will be much higher around your feet/legs than your head/breathing area. If you're not using the A/C and a leak occurs, most of the time people have their windows cracked open a bit and the R134A concentration stays innocuous.

But most people who use the A/C obviously have their windows shut, and when a leak occurs, there is the potential that serious health risks may be involved but 99% of the time, people obviously start feeling a little weird after some inhalation and in the case of Nexus, they'd just stop the car and get out.

Today's cars make their A/C systems very safe and reliable; safe enough to withstand gigantic amounts of pressure (to thwart overheating of the A/C system and thus leakage). People still make handheld R134A/R12 sensors that run off of batteries and inform you if there's a presence of such gases in the air.

Google the subject if you wish to wisen yourselves any further.

[ward]

the vast majority of the system is under the hood, not inside the car

only the evaporator coil is inside the car, and only evaporator coil leaks would seep into the cabin. The condenser, compressor, accumulator, charging fittings and most of the line is under the hood.

You're way more likely to get a leak under the hood than inside the car (there are no moving parts or valves) you'd have to have the evaporator coil burst, not impossible but highly unlikely

[nexus66]

Wow, thanks squawks - you seem to know your stuff!! You in the medical profession by any chance?

It's reassuring to know that I'm not dead! Although the sterilization thing might've been handy

But seriously, thanks for the info. I definately now intend to write to BMW UK to begin with, just to see what their response is.

The headache has gone, and apart from a bit of a cough for a few days (due to the irritation of breathing the gas undoubtedly) I feel back to normal. Still wasn't the most pleasant of experiences though.

The car's going into the dealer for a couple of days next week to get fixed, so hopefully that won't be a problem that occurs again.

[nexus66]

Ward, I dunno yet what actually leaked - should find out next week - but the gas definately filled the cabin, I could see the mist hanging in the air. It didn't so much seep as flood into the cabin, so it may have been the fan drawing it inside.

I do hope, from what you say, that it's NOT the evaporator coil that's burst, because I don't want the dash ripped out to get to the problem - it'll squeak for ever more if that happens!

[ward]

I'm certainly not doubting what happened to your car, I'm just trying to stop people from freaking out and thinking they're all going to die from the car's AC

I'm not sure how the dual zone/auto temp setting works from a mechanical standpoint, there's probably more stuff going on inside the car that could leak than there used to be

[Squawks]

I don't work in the medical field but instead, as a scientist in the pharmaceutical area. After a while, you tend to learn a bit about what happens to the body from drugs, and there's a big trend among all kinds of chemicals and biologicals. The amount I know about refrigerants is nothing compared to someone who works in the industrial refrigerant domain.

I'd have to agree with Ward about the issue of leaks going directly into the cabin. Does not happen that often - Nexus's case is actually the first I've heard of. Refrigerant leakage happens way more often in airplanes and military vehicles/crafts. Leakage can also happen in homes/businesses but because they have a much greater volume to lbs of R134A, the concentration never goes up to lethal points.

[nexus66]

I can certainly agree with both of you that this isn't something that happens very often. First time I've ever heard of it happening as well. But if anyone is worried, trust me you'll smell and see it well before it causes any of the serious problems we've discussed in here! And if you ever suspect a leak in the car - get the windows down and the draught will draw out the gas.

Gradually losing pressure over time - sure it happens quite a lot, especially if the air-con isn't used much. I know the seals can dry out and cause a gradual leak.

[E90Fleet]

Had a chat to a BMW tech today, he says they have never had such a case ( one of the oldest dealerships around, so they have experience )

But the VW guy I spoke to says they have a couple every now and then

[nexus66]

There's always gonna be failures with any system - I suppose it all just comes down to luck. And in this case, I was unlucky.

I'll be writing to BMW UK to highlight the fault so if it is more than a one-off, I'm sure they'll be looking into recalls and the like.

Sounds like there might be an inherent fault in the VW systems though...

[davinet78]

sorry to hear that i hope you get your car fixed and that you start enjoying your car again

[denverxi]

Just FYI, a teratogen causes abnomal fetal development, not sterility.