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      09-08-2013, 09:01 PM   #1
Nosrok
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Autocross prep - Mainly a brake question

I'm getting things ready to go out to some local autocross events. I want to keep the car as stock as possible for now but i've seen the pictures of brakes and don't want that happening. So i'm thinking that i should upgrade the cooling aspect, the f30(?) backing and ti shims. Where is the best place to pick up the TI shims and the backing plate?

2008 135 M package 40k on the clock.
Thanks guys.
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      09-08-2013, 09:17 PM   #2
Kgolf31
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No need to upgrade the actual brake calipers.

Replace the compound with something that gets to temp quick and has high initial bite with linear torque.

I run Hawk HP+ pads on my Z4M and absolutely love them.

Remember, you can only brake as fast as your tires warrant. AKA if you have crappy tires better brakes won't help
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      09-08-2013, 09:18 PM   #3
Kgolf31
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Sorry for double post, on mobile.

The cooling aspect will kick you out of RTR, Road Tire RWD.

Brake pad changes are allowed, so throwing in a pad that can tolerate more heat should be plenty
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      09-08-2013, 11:09 PM   #4
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kgolf31
No need to upgrade the actual brake calipers.

Replace the compound with something that gets to temp quick and has high initial bite with linear torque.

I run Hawk HP+ pads on my Z4M and absolutely love them.

Remember, you can only brake as fast as your tires warrant. AKA if you have crappy tires better brakes won't help
Are you running the HP+ on the street or just for AX? Was thinking about giving them a try down the road, but I hear they are super noisy. I suppose I could swap pads in paddock, but I'm not sure how that works exactly - would I need to bed them each time? Is it okay to go back and forth between pads on the same rotor? Did you upgrade brake fluid too?

I can turn a wrench okay but I've never worked on brakes, so I'm a little intimidated by it. I should probably get over that.

In any case, any fiddling with brakes will probably wait until out of warranty next spring. I think I'm due a free set of OEM pads before then, so might as well take advantage.
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      09-09-2013, 12:45 AM   #5
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For autocross? All you need is your stockers, you'll never build enough heat on a 30 to 40 second run to warrant a brake pad change like at the track (even then, stockers are pretty good).

Want to know that the secret to autocross is? Walk the course as many times as you can before the start and memorize each corner on how you want to enter and exit it. Look through the corner as you walk it, then after you walk through it, turn around and plan your exit as well.

Your first upgrades to a car to play at autocross are R-Compound tires and some from of 4-point racing harness to keep you from sliding around in the seat and having to brace yourself with your knees.

But mostly its like playing chess. You have to have a strategy in your head before the timer starts.
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      09-09-2013, 02:06 AM   #6
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Originally Posted by drcollie View Post
For autocross? All you need is your stockers, you'll never build enough heat on a 30 to 40 second run to warrant a brake pad change like at the track (even then, stockers are pretty good).

Want to know that the secret to autocross is? Walk the course as many times as you can before the start and memorize each corner on how you want to enter and exit it. Look through the corner as you walk it, then after you walk through it, turn around and plan your exit as well.

Your first upgrades to a car to play at autocross are R-Compound tires and some from of 4-point racing harness to keep you from sliding around in the seat and having to brace yourself with your knees.

But mostly its like playing chess. You have to have a strategy in your head before the timer starts.
I think tires are reasonable as a first upgrade, but definitely not R-comps.
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      09-09-2013, 07:36 AM   #7
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Originally Posted by Bimmer-Bob View Post
Are you running the HP+ on the street or just for AX? Was thinking about giving them a try down the road, but I hear they are super noisy. I suppose I could swap pads in paddock, but I'm not sure how that works exactly - would I need to bed them each time? Is it okay to go back and forth between pads on the same rotor? Did you upgrade brake fluid too?

I can turn a wrench okay but I've never worked on brakes, so I'm a little intimidated by it. I should probably get over that.

In any case, any fiddling with brakes will probably wait until out of warranty next spring. I think I'm due a free set of OEM pads before then, so might as well take advantage.
I run them on the street, because I don't daily the Z4M. They are loud, and annoying, but they brake like non-other...so I live with it.

You would need to bed each time to get the pad material on the rotor, and you could probably do them the day before. All it involves is backing out 2 caliper guide pins and the caliper comes off. It will take around a hour worth of time to do all 4 wheels start to finish when you get moving.

As long as your properly bed the pads, you'll be fine with running different combos on the rotors. Some people say no, but I know plenty of people that run track pads and sway back to OEM or HP+ with no problems. I will be doing the same next year for track.


Now remember, my rotors are drilled, so it could be a cause of the noise. My friend with a E36M doesn't have noise at all with his HP+ while DDing, and he is on blank rotors. So it really is car dependent IMO.

I run Super Blue ATE.

Quote:
Originally Posted by drcollie View Post
For autocross? All you need is your stockers, you'll never build enough heat on a 30 to 40 second run to warrant a brake pad change like at the track (even then, stockers are pretty good).

Want to know that the secret to autocross is? Walk the course as many times as you can before the start and memorize each corner on how you want to enter and exit it. Look through the corner as you walk it, then after you walk through it, turn around and plan your exit as well.

Your first upgrades to a car to play at autocross are R-Compound tires and some from of 4-point racing harness to keep you from sliding around in the seat and having to brace yourself with your knees.

But mostly its like playing chess. You have to have a strategy in your head before the timer starts.
I actually failed my OEMs while autocrossing. There was a chunk of material missing from one of my pads. I couldn't brake to engage ABS on my RS3s, and I knew my pads had to change.

I agree with walking the course, as well as doing ride-alongs with instructors. But R-Compounds is a terrible suggestion.

I'm at 4 years of autocross and I'm not comfortable with R-Compounds. They hide mistakes, and do not vocalize when they give up grip. You can be having all the grip in the world, and once it lets go you cannot recover and unless you know the limits of the car, you will go off course and possibly get in a world of trouble. Run with stock tires, and once you're through those look into a high performance tire.

I had a 139k mile E46 that I ran autocrossing when I started. OEM Suspension and all-season tires. It sucked, but had an absolute blast. I learned my lines, and limits of the car. Once you know the limits, and how to go past and recover, you can be faster.

I highly recommend these harnesses. I've used them before and are awesome. Can be installed and removed after events.

https://www.schrothracing.com/search/id/3286
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      09-09-2013, 04:24 PM   #8
Nosrok
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I didn't think i would get bumped to a different class because of dust shields. O Well, it's not my first autocross ever just with this car. Ran a NX2000 for a few years and my friend would swap cars with me and i would drive his integra. Walking the course really did help out and getting to know the car. First lap was always a tour of the track for me.

Thanks for all the suggestions though, i'll look closer at what mods are allowed to remain in the entry level classes. Just want to get a good feeling for the baseline of the car before i start modding things left and right.
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      09-09-2013, 05:29 PM   #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nosrok
I didn't think i would get bumped to a different class because of dust shields. O Well, it's not my first autocross ever just with this car. Ran a NX2000 for a few years and my friend would swap cars with me and i would drive his integra. Walking the course really did help out and getting to know the car. First lap was always a tour of the track for me.

Thanks for all the suggestions though, i'll look closer at what mods are allowed to remain in the entry level classes. Just want to get a good feeling for the baseline of the car before i start modding things left and right.
For SCCA RTR, you can do Wheels (Need to be same diameter and width, offset can vary +-6.5mm), A front OR rear sway bar, brake compound, exhaust, and shocks

The wheel diameter may change in the upcoming year, where you might be able to do diameter +-1"
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      09-09-2013, 09:04 PM   #10
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At a certain point in your autocrossing you run out of tire and the R Compounds make a massive difference. I don't do as many A-X as I used to, but I was a top 3 finisher for FTD in most all events in my M3 and I always ran R-Compounds. I also ran a lowered and stiffer suspension, roll cage, full harnesses, etc. When you get fast at Auto-X, you'll want them because otherwise you're just washing out all over the course and frustrated because you are limited by tire grip. All the cool kids have 'em that are running close to FTD.

Today I was at Summit Point WV instructing for the Aston Martin School today and went out in my Vantage with some student ride-alongs in my car, and I was on Michelin Pilot Super Sports on my car - and I was bored. I'm out of tire almost all the way around the track. The car could do more, but I just didn't have grip that I needed to drive the way i do. R-Compounds don't 'hide mistakes' in the least. They do give you so much more grip that your limits go way up and if you make a mistake and go agro - you'll do so in much more dramatic fashion - now that's a fact.
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      09-09-2013, 09:19 PM   #11
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For auto-x, your brakes start off cold, it's a short course and minimal heat is built in the brakes durring a run. Stock is probably your best bet.

If you want to run faster, tires are the key. Or for SCCA D-stock I would suggest buying a 5-door Subaru, those things are fast with stock tires!

Last edited by Suds; 09-09-2013 at 09:25 PM..
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      09-09-2013, 09:31 PM   #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by drcollie View Post
At a certain point in your autocrossing you run out of tire and the R Compounds make a massive difference. I don't do as many A-X as I used to, but I was a top 3 finisher for FTD in most all events in my M3 and I always ran R-Compounds. I also ran a lowered and stiffer suspension, roll cage, full harnesses, etc. When you get fast at Auto-X, you'll want them because otherwise you're just washing out all over the course and frustrated because you are limited by tire grip. All the cool kids have 'em that are running close to FTD.

Today I was at Summit Point WV instructing for the Aston Martin School today and went out in my Vantage with some student ride-alongs in my car, and I was on Michelin Pilot Super Sports on my car - and I was bored. I'm out of tire almost all the way around the track. The car could do more, but I just didn't have grip that I needed to drive the way i do. R-Compounds don't 'hide mistakes' in the least. They do give you so much more grip that your limits go way up and if you make a mistake and go agro - you'll do so in much more dramatic fashion - now that's a fact.

FTD isn't equal to PAX...which actually accounts on cars modifications.

Have I ran out of tire? Sure. Do I think...man I need to go to R-Comps? Nope.

PSS Tires suck, and shouldn't be transposed to the rest of street tires. I've never overcooked my RS3s on the track, and only few times in 100F+ have done so autocrossing.

R-Compounds most certainly hide mistakes. They have too much grip, and don't communicate to the driver like they do. You can easily overdrive the tire without knowing it. There is no linear breakaway with grip. It is a snap effect. With a street tire, you can hear the limit of grip as you approach, and past threshold.

In a R-Comp, you do not hear this.

Perfect examples.

My car, with Hankook RS3s. You can hear as I approach grip, and exceed it. It should be noted that 0:41 seconds I start to understeer the car. You can easily hear this happen. As well, you can note that I am not fighting the car, and you can easily be a fast driver on street tires to become close to top PAX. I am never frustrated....



Now a national FP champion. Tom O'Gorman



You can hear some sqeaks...but nothing in terms of the street tires.



I'm still actually in shock you're trying to recommend R-Comps to a newer person at autocross.

Are you going to be the person that will refund OP's money after he cords his tires in 40 runs because of limited camber, no knowledge on R-Comps...etc?
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      09-09-2013, 09:53 PM   #13
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Originally Posted by Kgolf31 View Post
F
Are you going to be the person that will refund OP's money after he cords his tires in 40 runs because of limited camber, no knowledge on R-Comps...etc?
You win, I defer to your superior attitude.
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      09-10-2013, 06:26 AM   #14
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Originally Posted by drcollie View Post
You win, I defer to your superior attitude.
No problem.

If you knew what was going on with SCCA Solo, you'd realize there will be no D-Stock classes next year.

So, for OP to be a "cool-kid" (as you would call it) and run R-Comps, OP would have to run in Super Stock, against C6 Z06 Vettes and GT3s.

The next level of prep to run R-Comps would be Street Prepared, which involves 1000 lb springs, removal of AC/rolling fenders...etc. You see this isn't logical because OP doesn't want to drift away from stock.


Lastly, you'll realize that RTR was one of the most popular classes at the SCCA Nationals Tour? It has 55 cars, versus D-Stock which only had 15.


Once again, running R-Comps is just not a good idea.


Since you want to be sarcastic, I'll just keep on backing it up with more factual information instead of you trying to tell me how R-Comps operate, when I've driven on them myself.
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