Engine Swap...

[Suprgnat]

[QUOTE=ilikebmxbikes;14310357
If I was building out a 128i, I would get all of the M3 bits, a nice set of coilovers, some nice wheels with some good wide rubber and you would have a very capable and reliable car.[/QUOTE]

+1

[TheSt|G]

Originally Posted by ilikebmxbikes

The 128i's and 328i's in general do not have the tunability and aftermarket support the n54 and n55 car's do. You guys do however share the same suspension. There are a lot of 135i part outs with stuff that will fit your car.

If I was building out a 128i, I would get all of the M3 bits, a nice set of coilovers, some nice wheels with some good wide rubber and you would have a very capable and reliable car.

30% horsepower bump using mostly OE parts is a pretty good amount of tunability.

That said, taking advantage of our significant weight savings and enjoying the inherent cornering neutrality a square setup are really areas we can capitalize on.

[flinchy]

Originally Posted by ilikebmxbikes

Your build is great. You are building something unique and otherwise unavailable.

and you need to stop modifying your car.

every time i see a post of yours i go 'well hey that sounds like a smart and ridiculously awesome thing to do'

-_- hahaha

[flinchy]

Originally Posted by TheSt|G

30% horsepower bump using mostly OE parts is a pretty good amount of tunability.

That said, taking advantage of our significant weight savings and enjoying the inherent cornering neutrality a square setup are really areas we can capitalize on.

how much lighter IS the 128i over 135i?

couple hundred pounds?


that's one thing i'm not looking forward to - weight gain in an already porky car.

[ilikebmxbikes]

Originally Posted by TheSt|G

30% horsepower bump using mostly OE parts is a pretty good amount of tunability.

That said, taking advantage of our significant weight savings and enjoying the inherent cornering neutrality a square setup are really areas we can capitalize on.

I was referring more to the overall used parts on the market that the person was commenting they are missing out on with a 128i. N54's have downpipes, FMIC's, Chargepipes, useless DCI's and a bunch of other very common things that pop up in the FS section that cannot be used for 128i's. I dont think that anyone with a 128i should really feel like they are missing out on any deals there.

128i although slightly lighter than the 135i's is still heavy. My car's weakness on the track is its weight and its strength is its suspension, tires and brakes over the power.

I would love to track a 128i with your headers, a tune, and the full M3 suspension, lsd, and some wide wheels and tires.

Originally Posted by flinchy

and you need to stop modifying your car.

every time i see a post of yours i go 'well hey that sounds like a smart and ridiculously awesome thing to do'

-_- hahaha

Thanks Flinchy. Thats a compliment coming from you. I love your build. We americans already miss out not having the hatches and your build makes me want one even more. Cant wait to see it finished.

I have a few more things on my car that I will be doing in the next month or so. Interior is getting a half cage, ER oilcoolers, Recaros and Vargas stage 2+ should be ready soon.

[flinchy]

Originally Posted by Ian///M

Is this swap ever going to happen? Why not just buy a 135i?. The wiring and associated issues will be a nightmare.

yep

got 135i brakes (to make it road legally engineerable)

order for remaining brake parts coming 31jul (waiting for F30 ducts)

looking into M3 rear axle setup now (want an LSD, suspension stuff for funsies) from the UK

aaand then my tax return should rock up (plus a few months saving) which SHOULD cover the rebuild+upgrade of the engine

wiring isn't a nightmare, i have full factory harness+plugs+ECU

it's literally unplug N52 ECU from JBE connector, plug in N54 ECU. i spent a long time making sure that was the case haha.. and i have a step-by-step guide to code from 6AT to 6MT too.

and why not (why buy the 135i?)? about the same price (not counting all the upgrades i'm doing, M3 bits etc. hah)... i have the E87 already (and engine, gearbox, brakes...)... i like it... it's fun. it's unique. haha

so.... say october november is the plan, which is actually about the timeframe i thought in the beginning ... fingers crossed at least.

will post a clearer, better formatted update in my thread later.

[flinchy]

Originally Posted by Ian///M

I doubt it it that simple.. if you going to do a swap, do an S65 swap

Personally think that the E82 is far more appealing to the eye than the hatch... but go for it

it is

every part between an E82 and E87 (and E9x) are the same except for DME and engine specific CAS (for immobilisation) and chassis specific JBE... oh and the dash cluster stores mileage/VIN but it will still work even if i install it with my N52

there are some 'adaptations' and 'alignments' that need to be reset

but it's literally plug and play otherwise.... everything connects to the JBE beneath the fuse box, which acts as a gateway to the DME... the JBE is model specific as it also does some control stuff for doors (i think it was the JBE, would have to dig out the BMW documentation i found)

i wish i could prove it to you... it took a lot of reading random BMW documentation and other swaps unfortunately haha

i'd gladly do an S65 swap, if i could get the engine+transmission for <$20k :P... end costs would be about double what i'm doing now if i wanted to modify the engine too for power (since that's what i'm doing with the N54). literally double.

yeah, i can say i really like the E82, and i wish i could get the same awesome trunks/spoilers/diffusers.. i do plan on modifying the exterior too eventually though, so hopefully it sways people even more ahha

[TheSt|G]

Originally Posted by flinchy

how much lighter IS the 128i over 135i?

couple hundred pounds?


that's one thing i'm not looking forward to - weight gain in an already porky car.

Car and Driver found it to be 200-250lbs lighter(can't remember exactly), and I know your hatch is actually lighter still than the coupe.

Originally Posted by Ian///M

I doubt it it that simple.. if you going to do a swap, do an S65 swap

Personally think that the E82 is far more appealing to the eye than the hatch... but go for it

Agreed on the S65, disagree on the E82. I would trade my car for a 5 door hatch in a heartbeat.

[631twentyeighteye]

hatch is 10x better looking than the coupe. the rear of the coupe looks like a saggy old lady and the hatch just looks much more subtle yet appealing to me. I'd have a 3 door hatch in a second if they made them here.

[ilikebmxbikes]

Hatch is a hatch and the coupe is a coupe. Very different styles. Regardless of which we all have ugly headlights.

I would buy a hatch in a second for a DD if we could get them out here.

I have been watching s65's and it seems we can get them out here with the tranny for as low as $14k. In a year or two if they drop below $10k I might swap one in.

[Bimmer-Bob]

Originally Posted by TheSt|G

30% horsepower bump using mostly OE parts is a pretty good amount of tunability.

That said, taking advantage of our significant weight savings and enjoying the inherent cornering neutrality a square setup are really areas we can capitalize on.

+30% seems awfully optimistic for a 3-stage and a tune. Maybe you'd get there with SuperSprints (astronomically priced) headers, but even then I think you'd be more in the 280's.

[Obioban]

Originally Posted by Daft Auto

I guess you could make a case for it.

Leapfrogging the rationality, I suppose if the 128i is sitting on some high miles - ~150k - you'd be looking to buy or trade for a similarly high mile 135i, which arguably wouldn't be recommended. Swapping in a low mile N54 (~20k miles) into a high mileage 128i might be more realistic.

But again, back to the rationality of swapping the N54. If a version of your car comes with the engine you want, straight from the factory - don't be an idiot.

One of the beautiful things about the 128i is 150,000 mile should still be considered low mileage. BMW's non M I6s go forever without rebuilds. I know a guy who has a 340,000 mile M54 X3. His parents have told him they'll get him a new car when that breaks, so he's doing everything he can to break it-- flooring it to redline when cold, free revving, absurdly long OCIs, etc. He can't do it.
(this assuming you replace your cooling system at appropriate intervals)

Beyond that, if i were swapping, I wouldn't consider the heavy/laggy/reduced reliability N54/N55 for a second-- S65 ftw. Though... I do feel like the S65 might be too much power for the chassis to properly handle. Then again, I think many of the N54/N55 owners unbalance their cars with too much power as well.

[Obioban]

Originally Posted by Bimmer-Bob

+30% seems awfully optimistic for a 3-stage and a tune. Maybe you'd get there with SuperSprints (astronomically priced) headers, but even then I think you'd be more in the 280's.

BMW sells N52s with 272 hp from the factory, so I would consider that the minimum a semi competent tune gets you from DISA/tune alone. Slightly more aggressive tuning and optimizing for 93 octane instead of 91 should easily get you to 280 hp. Going from collectors with integrated restrictive cats (stock) to well engineered headers without any primary cats (aka SS) should easily be 20, especially one a car pushing more air through them (DISA enabled car).



300 seems very reasonable to me, with no loss in reliability.

Will find out definitively soon

[flinchy]

Originally Posted by Ian///M

Hatch is a hideous purposeless creation IMO

</3

breaking my heart ian, breaking my heart :P

... no one suspects the hatch!! hahahah

[Iron Man]

Originally Posted by Obioban

BMW sells N52s with 272 hp from the factory, so I would consider that the minimum a semi competent tune gets you from DISA/tune alone. Slightly more aggressive tuning and optimizing for 93 octane instead of 91 should easily get you to 280 hp. Going from collectors with integrated restrictive cats (stock) to well engineered headers without any primary cats (aka SS) should easily be 20, especially one a car pushing more air through them (DISA enabled car).



300 seems very reasonable to me, with no loss in reliability.

Will find out definitively soon

Oh no, don't tune it to 300 HP! I believe BMW said they dropped the Mg/Al block because it could not handle more than 270 HP. Your engine will fail.

Of course, I am being facetious here. Just re-calling a previous thread discussion on the BMW switch in their engine block materials.

I think what you guys are doing with the DISA and headers is pretty awesome.

[flinchy]

Originally Posted by ilikebmxbikes

Hatch is a hatch and the coupe is a coupe. Very different styles. Regardless of which we all have ugly headlights.

I would buy a hatch in a second for a DD if we could get them out here.

I have been watching s65's and it seems we can get them out here with the tranny for as low as $14k. In a year or two if they drop below $10k I might swap one in.

i actually like our headlights! :P

(i don't even mind the amber corners if the rest of the car is themed for it)

Originally Posted by Obioban

Then again, I think many of the N54/N55 owners unbalance their cars with too much power as well.

if you think most N54 owners unbalance their car with power, you'd hate how much power i want to put through it LOL (definitely a tiny bit more than most hah)

Originally Posted by ilikebmxbikes

I would love to track a 128i with your headers, a tune, and the full M3 suspension, lsd, and some wide wheels and tires.



Thanks Flinchy. Thats a compliment coming from you. I love your build. We americans already miss out not having the hatches and your build makes me want one even more. Cant wait to see it finished.

I have a few more things on my car that I will be doing in the next month or so. Interior is getting a half cage, ER oilcoolers, Recaros and Vargas stage 2+ should be ready soon.

i'd LOVE to throw some ITB's, catless headers, standalone... even 3.2 stroker etc. and go for crazy N/A power... but that's way way way waaaaaaay too expensive for what it is lol (comparable to what i'm spending now easily, if not more)... one other guy has done it i'm aware of and is something like 350-400hp. fun times with that.



haha, same to you! big compliment!... you build is probably my favourite to follow in 135i's

hopefully the result won't disappoint

[flinchy]

Originally Posted by Iron Man

Oh no, don't tune it to 300 HP! I believe BMW said they dropped the Mg/Al block because it could not handle more than 270 HP. Your engine will fail.

Of course, I am being facetious here. Just re-calling a previous thread discussion on the BMW switch in their engine block materials.

I think what you guys are doing with the DISA and headers is pretty awesome.

i hate all the discussions on 'how weak' the N52 is

yeah it probably wouldn't handle hundredS more horsepower, it's not built SUPER tough.... nowhere near BMW's cast iron motors.

but with the few SC kits, 6-7lb well tuned wouldn't have broken anything except your bank balance hahahaha.

[SGJB135i]

i would love to see a 128i with a n54 pushing 450wrhp EPICCCCCCCCC! haahha good luck! psot pictures if you decide!

[ilikebmxbikes]

Originally Posted by Obioban

One of the beautiful things about the 128i is 150,000 mile should still be considered low mileage. BMW's non M I6s go forever without rebuilds. I know a guy who has a 340,000 mile M54 X3. His parents have told him they'll get him a new car when that breaks, so he's doing everything he can to break it-- flooring it to redline when cold, free revving, absurdly long OCIs, etc. He can't do it.
(this assuming you replace your cooling system at appropriate intervals)

Beyond that, if i were swapping, I wouldn't consider the heavy/laggy/reduced reliability N54/N55 for a second-- S65 ftw. Though... I do feel like the S65 might be too much power for the chassis to properly handle. Then again, I think many of the N54/N55 owners unbalance their cars with too much power as well.

Turbo lag is very minimal in the n54/n55 and to be honest, people over exaggerate the 'unreliability' of them. There are a lot of 100k plus cars on e90 post with no major problems. Generally all turbos, (Porsche , Subaru, whatever) require more upkeep so there shouldn't be any surprise the n54/n55 require a bit more than the n52.

An s65's additionally weight if anything would make the car feel a bit unbalanced, not the power.

[Dafttt]

Have you ever thought about swapping an LS engine? Possibly lots of support and used examples from Holdens in OZ. I do like the idea of a 135i hatch ..a lot, but an LS might be cheaper and subjectively more fun!

[Bimmer-Bob]

Originally Posted by Obioban

BMW sells N52s with 272 hp from the factory, so I would consider that the minimum a semi competent tune gets you from DISA/tune alone. Slightly more aggressive tuning and optimizing for 93 octane instead of 91 should easily get you to 280 hp. Going from collectors with integrated restrictive cats (stock) to well engineered headers without any primary cats (aka SS) should easily be 20, especially one a car pushing more air through them (DISA enabled car).


300 seems very reasonable to me, with no loss in reliability.

Will find out definitively soon

I think you're starting off on a pretty big assumption. Just because BMW made a version of the engine that put out 272 HP (on some X3's & X5's) does not at all make it reasonable to assume that a "semi competent tune" would get you there or beyond (why would BMW's best be some aftermarket tuner's minimum?). First of all, there are still hardware differences, even after replacing the stock manifold with the 3-stage version. Everything from the exhaust manifold back is different, and presumably much less restrictive. And on the software side, I'm not convinced there are ANY tuners that have completely unlocked these ECU's nor understand them to the extent that BMW's engineers do. So you're probably starting too high to begin with, and then you're jumping all the way up to 280 HP for a 93 octane tune? I'm sorry, but I really think you're being overly generous. Of course nobody knows anything without a dyno, but better to keep expectations low at this point IMO and possibly be pleasantly surprised later than the other way around.

[Obioban]

Originally Posted by Bimmer-Bob

I think you're starting off on a pretty big assumption. Just because BMW made a version of the engine that put out 272 HP (on some X3's & X5's) does not at all make it reasonable to assume that a "semi competent tune" would get you there or beyond (why would BMW's best be some aftermarket tuner's minimum?). First of all, there are still hardware differences, even after replacing the stock manifold with the 3-stage version. Everything from the exhaust manifold back is different, and presumably much less restrictive. And on the software side, I'm not convinced there are ANY tuners that have completely unlocked these ECU's nor understand them to the extent that BMW's engineers do. So you're probably starting too high to begin with, and then you're jumping all the way up to 280 HP for a 93 octane tune? I'm sorry, but I really think you're being overly generous. Of course nobody knows anything without a dyno, but better to keep expectations low at this point IMO and possibly be pleasantly surprised later than the other way around.

N52s ranged from 218 to 272 per BMW with "output changes result from the omission of the variable resonance system, dual plenum intake runner system, and the variable back pressure muffler."

A 128i has all but the variable back pressure muffler... and that it may have, as there is a flap... I just assumed it was for sound control.

I would assume any tuner would start with the 272hp tune as the base map, as it would be dumb to use anything else. Start with the highest output BMW map and base aftermarket changes on that. I know my tuner of choice does.

X3 uses the same headers as the 128i (http://realoem.com/bmw/showparts.do?...75&hg=18&fg=10), and the rest of the exhaust track is relatively meaningless to power, so I think we can assume the exhaust system isn't the source of the power difference. With the DISA manifold swap, all the hardware side is the same. Same engine. Same headers. Same intake track.

8 hp is pretty conservative for an aftermarket tune, imo. My car gained ~20 hp from tuning, and it starts out at 100+ hp / liter stock-- should have much less potential gains than the N52.

Anyway... agreed that we won't know definitively until dynoing happens... which happily should be soon. 300 x .83 (17% drivetrain loss) = 249 rwhp. So, if the car ends up at 249rwhp SAE corrected on a dynojet... 300 crank. Higher would be awesome, less would be less.