E30 Cobb Maps

Drawn05 · 05-15-2013, 04:16 AM

Hi all

I have been looking into using the Cobb e30 map though I wanted to sus out my ability to source the stuff.

Up here in Newcastle we do not have any United e85, rather we have a couple of caltex eflex stations which I believe is only e70.

The Cobb e30 map requires 30% of the fuel available to be e85 and 70% 98ron. The fuel tank of the 135i is 53 litres from what I can tell, so 30% e85 would be 16 litres with a full tank. So thats 13.6 litres of ethanol in the tank, correct?

To use e70, would one just use 23 litres (48% of tank capacity) to get the same level of ethanol into the tank? I am a bit late to the e85 party so dont really know that much about it.

JB4-335 · 05-15-2013, 05:59 PM

That eflex stuff is crap. I've been using ethanol in my N54 for almost 3 years and it has its pros and cons. Keep a close eye on your short and long term fuel trims, AFR's and timing.

Alpha Trion · 05-15-2013, 07:38 PM

with the e80 you also have to be aware of the fuel lines. It corrodes the lines and they need to be changed.

its great that it runs cooler which means more boost.. but as above.. you have your pros and cons with this stuff.

-Elee

drjekl · 05-15-2013, 08:01 PM

So the united at Merewether doesn't stock it Steve, and have you checked the caltex @ hamilton?

I recall the wrx/evo guys using the caltex at hamilton to buy it and had heard E85 was available at the united @ Merewether?

https://maps.google.com.au/maps?ie=U...d=0CJYBEPwSMAA

https://maps.google.com.au/maps?ie=U...d=0CJYBEPwSMAA

Drawn05 · 05-15-2013, 09:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by drjekl

So the united at Merewether doesn't stock it Steve, and have you checked the caltex @ hamilton?

I recall the wrx/evo guys using the caltex at hamilton to buy it and had heard E85 was available at the united @ Merewether?

https://maps.google.com.au/maps?ie=U...d=0CJYBEPwSMAA

https://maps.google.com.au/maps?ie=U...d=0CJYBEPwSMAA

All Caltex stations that have ethanol are e70. The united at merewether doesnt have e85, so migt need to stock up with e85 whilst down here in Sydney.

Drawn05 · 05-15-2013, 09:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Alpha Trion

with the e80 you also have to be aware of the fuel lines. It corrodes the lines and they need to be changed.

its great that it runs cooler which means more boost.. but as above.. you have your pros and cons with this stuff.

-Elee

I have read lots of statements of that it is bad for fuel lines, pumps etc, but havent actually seen anyone claim that it has happened to them.

I am cautious but certainly going to give it a go.

Drawn05 · 05-15-2013, 09:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JB4135

That eflex stuff is crap. I've been using ethanol in my N54 for almost 3 years and it has its pros and cons. Keep a close eye on your short and long term fuel trims, AFR's and timing.

So what is it that is crap about eflex? I am sure you have results from your fastidious logging that back it up, so I am not doubting you. Is it the 30% petrol that is bad or does ethanol have grades?

flinchy · 05-15-2013, 11:56 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Drawn05

Hi all

I have been looking into using the Cobb e30 map though I wanted to sus out my ability to source the stuff.

Up here in Newcastle we do not have any United e85, rather we have a couple of caltex eflex stations which I believe is only e70.

The Cobb e30 map requires 30% of the fuel available to be e85 and 70% 98ron. The fuel tank of the 135i is 53 litres from what I can tell, so 30% e85 would be 16 litres with a full tank. So thats 13.6 litres of ethanol in the tank, correct?

To use e70, would one just use 23 litres (48% of tank capacity) to get the same level of ethanol into the tank? I am a bit late to the e85 party so dont really know that much about it.

usually no matter where you get your flex fuel from, it can vary down to 70%, USUALLY it will be 80-85 though.

ED: united may be an exception though.. since they deal a lot more with ethanol having a refinery for it - but usually guaranteed E85 is a race grade fuel that you buy from the refinery or in drums - google results seem to say united is a solid 85 though, even up to 90% in some cases.

plus since ethanol is hydroscopic, it can take on a bit of water (not enough to be harmful) if the tanks aren't 100% sealed

flinchy · 05-16-2013, 12:03 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Alpha Trion

with the e80 you also have to be aware of the fuel lines. It corrodes the lines and they need to be changed.

its great that it runs cooler which means more boost.. but as above.. you have your pros and cons with this stuff.

-Elee

is a myth

OLD fuel lines can be damaged by ethanol - they'll swell because they have cracked due to age and are now porous. - new lines won't, and the N54 has been shown to not have THAT kind of issue from it

it's not just that it runs cooler on injection, it has a higher octane rating (way WAY higher than 98RON) - you can get 100RON E10 (98+ethanol) from united even.

for N54's, the worry would be putting more strain on the factory HPFP, for piece of mind i'd go for an upgrade (vargas's) - as well as you have to upgade the low pressure system

adrian@vishnu · 05-16-2013, 12:31 AM

I have a 98 WRX with mostly stock fuel lines that I run on United E85. I test it when I get it and normally get between 85 and 90% ethanol. I have been doing this for several years and used 1000s of Ls of the stuff from United Roselle and it is very consistent. The car has 330kW ATW at 26psi of boost, and has achieved a 11.0 @ 125MPH. I have never had any issues with gummed up fuel lines or poor fuel quality, and the car is consistent on a dyno after several years of using the fuel.

Other in the WRX community that use the eFlex most often measure 70% ethanol. I have not used it as my car is tuned for 85%.

E85 is great stuff, but easier to use on older port injection engines with easily upgradeable injectors than newer direct injection engines. When I converted, I literally filled her up, changed a setting in the ECU (Haltech), drove to dyno, tuned and drove out a couple hours later with 50kW more power. Engine runs cooler and feels more responsive even in hot weather.

drjekl · 05-16-2013, 01:10 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Drawn05

All Caltex stations that have ethanol are e70. The united at merewether doesnt have e85, so migt need to stock up with e85 whilst down here in Sydney.

Hmm that sucks!!!

I shall get a petition started for them to start stocking the stuff!

Out of curiosity how much do they charge per L for E85?

I recall Ed saying his car goes through 20-22L/100 running E85!

froop · 05-16-2013, 02:39 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by drjekl

Quote:

Originally Posted by Drawn05

All Caltex stations that have ethanol are e70. The united at merewether doesnt have e85, so migt need to stock up with e85 whilst down here in Sydney.

Hmm that sucks!!!

I shall get a petition started for them to start stocking the stuff!

Out of curiosity how much do they charge per L for E85?

I recall Ed saying his car goes through 20-22L/100 running E85!

You'd better hope it's half the cost of 98 because I'm getting 10.0L/100kms at the moment =P

drjekl · 05-16-2013, 04:10 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by froop

You'd better hope it's half the cost of 98 because I'm getting 10.0L/100kms at the moment =P

Hmm I doubt thats the case!!

I was getting 10.4L/100 on my stage 1 map, since I have gone to the stage 3 its bumped up to 11.6L/100... An extra 20kw+ or so of power for $5 extra a week is worthwhile imo

flinchy · 05-16-2013, 09:15 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by drjekl

Hmm that sucks!!!

I shall get a petition started for them to start stocking the stuff!

Out of curiosity how much do they charge per L for E85?

I recall Ed saying his car goes through 20-22L/100 running E85!

more like $1ish/liter

drjekl · 05-16-2013, 09:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Drawn05

All Caltex stations that have ethanol are e70. The united at merewether doesnt have e85, so migt need to stock up with e85 whilst down here in Sydney.

I might go for a cruise on the weekend and suss out a few of these!

http://www.ethanolanswers.com.au/ethanol/locator

drjekl · 05-16-2013, 09:28 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by flinchy

more like $1ish/liter

Hmm well you definitely wouldn't run it for economy cost savings then!

Drawn05 · 05-16-2013, 09:48 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by drjekl

I might go for a cruise on the weekend and suss out a few of these!

http://www.ethanolanswers.com.au/ethanol/locator

Those are all caltex eflex (e70) stations. I was stoked when I first saw that there were local ones but they only sell the stuff that is considered crap for our needs.

flinchy · 05-16-2013, 09:50 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by drjekl

Hmm well you definitely wouldn't run it for economy cost savings then!

yeah no

i mean

it doesn't really cost you more than if you ran 98

at that point, you shouldn't worry about it much though haha

i think in the factory tuned flex fuel vehicles they may run a bit more COST efficiently? since they're not running it to screw in a much boost and timing as possible :P

ED: just searched, awwwwwwww no united E85 in brisbane... only caltex

adrian@vishnu · 05-16-2013, 10:43 PM

For the record, I used the United E85, as my car is tuned specifically for it, and I do not have auto tune adjustment for ethanol content. However I know others who have tuned for Caltex E70, and got great results. I would not hesitate in using it if my tune would accommodate it. On the BMWs where getting enough fuel in can be an issue, E70 may be better than E85. I think it would be worthwhile trying it out. I think 70% ethanol would give 99% of the cooling and knock reduction effect of E85.

Out of interest, my car (WRX) running full power can use about 5L of E85 per minute!! I have about 1200c injectors running close to 100% duty cycle at max power. That would be about 520hp at the flywheel.

Drawn05 · 05-16-2013, 10:57 PM

Isnt ethanol just ethanol. Cant one just add more e70 to up the ethanol content anyway? So rather than 16litres of e85 its 24 of e70; isnt that the same ratio of ethanol

etroleum as just using e85?

Adrian, what do you use to test its properties?

adrian@vishnu · 05-16-2013, 11:13 PM

Yep... E85 is only better than E70 if you want to run it full strength at E85. If you plan to run E70 or less, it does not matter what you start with... the ratio will be different, but same result.

Also bear in mind that the petrol component of these pump Ethanol fuels is not 98RON. It is probably the cheapest petrol they could use (91??). The fact is that the ethanol octane is so high, that adding 15% petrol still results in a very high octane (like 105+).

I measure the ethanol content with a little jar with some line levels. You add some fuel to one line and water to another line. Then shake and wait for sediment to form and then read off the content from a scale. United for me is normally around 88%.

In my case, I run full strength E85, so I do want the higher ethanol content.

drjekl · 05-16-2013, 11:18 PM

So potentially E70 puts less strain on the fuel system as it burns slower then E85(containing less ethanol) yet still provides a much higher octane and improved cooling properties in comparison to PULP?

Therefore with a stock fuel system in a bmw, as you pointed out we could be better off running E70?

Could Steve run a cobb E85 map on E70 fuel, or would it be best to have a custom map tuned for E70?

Also I believe most guys dilute the E85 with some PULP, what you're stating is they are just diluting to levels that E70 may be anyhow (we could run straight E70)?

05-15-2013, 04:16 AM	#1
Drawn05 Captain 67 Rep 853 Posts Drives: Yes Join Date: Dec 2010 Location: Left iTrader: (0)	E30 Cobb Maps - Eflex (e70) & e85 Hi all I have been looking into using the Cobb e30 map though I wanted to sus out my ability to source the stuff. Up here in Newcastle we do not have any United e85, rather we have a couple of caltex eflex stations which I believe is only e70. The Cobb e30 map requires 30% of the fuel available to be e85 and 70% 98ron. The fuel tank of the 135i is 53 litres from what I can tell, so 30% e85 would be 16 litres with a full tank. So thats 13.6 litres of ethanol in the tank, correct? To use e70, would one just use 23 litres (48% of tank capacity) to get the same level of ethanol into the tank? I am a bit late to the e85 party so dont really know that much about it.
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05-15-2013, 05:59 PM	#2
JB4-335 Brigadier General 168 Rep 3,093 Posts Drives: E92 BSM & E70 AW Join Date: Feb 2011 Location: Australia iTrader: (1)	That eflex stuff is crap. I've been using ethanol in my N54 for almost 3 years and it has its pros and cons. Keep a close eye on your short and long term fuel trims, AFR's and timing.
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05-15-2013, 07:38 PM	#3
Alpha Trion Lieutenant 30 Rep 491 Posts Drives: 135 Convertible Join Date: Apr 2011 Location: Sydney Australia iTrader: (0)	with the e80 you also have to be aware of the fuel lines. It corrodes the lines and they need to be changed. its great that it runs cooler which means more boost.. but as above.. you have your pros and cons with this stuff. -Elee
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05-15-2013, 08:01 PM	#4
drjekl Captain 35 Rep 809 Posts Drives: E92 335i Join Date: Jan 2013 Location: Oz iTrader: (0)	So the united at Merewether doesn't stock it Steve, and have you checked the caltex @ hamilton? I recall the wrx/evo guys using the caltex at hamilton to buy it and had heard E85 was available at the united @ Merewether? https://maps.google.com.au/maps?ie=U...d=0CJYBEPwSMAA https://maps.google.com.au/maps?ie=U...d=0CJYBEPwSMAA
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05-16-2013, 12:31 AM	#10
adrian@vishnu 39 Rep 672 Posts Drives: 135i Join Date: May 2009 Location: Sydney, Australia iTrader: (0)	I have a 98 WRX with mostly stock fuel lines that I run on United E85. I test it when I get it and normally get between 85 and 90% ethanol. I have been doing this for several years and used 1000s of Ls of the stuff from United Roselle and it is very consistent. The car has 330kW ATW at 26psi of boost, and has achieved a 11.0 @ 125MPH. I have never had any issues with gummed up fuel lines or poor fuel quality, and the car is consistent on a dyno after several years of using the fuel. Other in the WRX community that use the eFlex most often measure 70% ethanol. I have not used it as my car is tuned for 85%. E85 is great stuff, but easier to use on older port injection engines with easily upgradeable injectors than newer direct injection engines. When I converted, I literally filled her up, changed a setting in the ECU (Haltech), drove to dyno, tuned and drove out a couple hours later with 50kW more power. Engine runs cooler and feels more responsive even in hot weather.
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05-16-2013, 10:43 PM	#19
adrian@vishnu 39 Rep 672 Posts Drives: 135i Join Date: May 2009 Location: Sydney, Australia iTrader: (0)	For the record, I used the United E85, as my car is tuned specifically for it, and I do not have auto tune adjustment for ethanol content. However I know others who have tuned for Caltex E70, and got great results. I would not hesitate in using it if my tune would accommodate it. On the BMWs where getting enough fuel in can be an issue, E70 may be better than E85. I think it would be worthwhile trying it out. I think 70% ethanol would give 99% of the cooling and knock reduction effect of E85. Out of interest, my car (WRX) running full power can use about 5L of E85 per minute!! I have about 1200c injectors running close to 100% duty cycle at max power. That would be about 520hp at the flywheel.
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05-16-2013, 10:57 PM	#20
Drawn05 Captain 67 Rep 853 Posts Drives: Yes Join Date: Dec 2010 Location: Left iTrader: (0)	Isnt ethanol just ethanol. Cant one just add more e70 to up the ethanol content anyway? So rather than 16litres of e85 its 24 of e70; isnt that the same ratio of ethanoletroleum as just using e85? Adrian, what do you use to test its properties?
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05-16-2013, 11:13 PM	#21
adrian@vishnu 39 Rep 672 Posts Drives: 135i Join Date: May 2009 Location: Sydney, Australia iTrader: (0)	Yep... E85 is only better than E70 if you want to run it full strength at E85. If you plan to run E70 or less, it does not matter what you start with... the ratio will be different, but same result. Also bear in mind that the petrol component of these pump Ethanol fuels is not 98RON. It is probably the cheapest petrol they could use (91??). The fact is that the ethanol octane is so high, that adding 15% petrol still results in a very high octane (like 105+). I measure the ethanol content with a little jar with some line levels. You add some fuel to one line and water to another line. Then shake and wait for sediment to form and then read off the content from a scale. United for me is normally around 88%. In my case, I run full strength E85, so I do want the higher ethanol content.
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05-16-2013, 11:18 PM	#22
drjekl Captain 35 Rep 809 Posts Drives: E92 335i Join Date: Jan 2013 Location: Oz iTrader: (0)	So potentially E70 puts less strain on the fuel system as it burns slower then E85(containing less ethanol) yet still provides a much higher octane and improved cooling properties in comparison to PULP? Therefore with a stock fuel system in a bmw, as you pointed out we could be better off running E70? Could Steve run a cobb E85 map on E70 fuel, or would it be best to have a custom map tuned for E70? Also I believe most guys dilute the E85 with some PULP, what you're stating is they are just diluting to levels that E70 may be anyhow (we could run straight E70)?
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