Prediction for those going from manual to DCT

[MarkR171]

Originally Posted by BMW86

The Manual v DCT will rage on until the end of time.

Before the DCT and faster autos came along, there were always some manual drivers that would constantly rave on about how the manual was faster, that it was more involving, that it was more hardcore, I could go on and on. Those types were so passionate about letting the world know they drive a manual and went out of their way to put you down if you drove a slushbox. I hear it time and time again, if they don't make it in manual then I would rather drive whatever else. I never understood why, I put it down to an ego thing. Fair enough you love your manual but keep it in your pants.

Now the tides have turned. The DCT is without a doubt faster and better than the manual in every aspect that is performance related. The steptronic in its own right has proven to be consistently faster than the manual as well. Now I'm seeing some of the DCT drivers coming forward and giving stick to those hardcore manual fans and it is those passionate manual fans that don't know how to take it.

At the end of the day you're driving the same car and it's personal preference whether you drive a manual/step/DCT. You don't need to defend or justify your reasons why you chose it over the other because everyone is different. It's just another option that you tick off when you order your car.

Some of us chose to sacrifice some aspect of performance and structual rigidity so we could drive around with the top down. It wasn't my cup of tea but I don't go out of my way to put anyone with a convertible down, I appreciate what they have or keep it to myself because it doesn't affect me. I think Alpine White is the sexiest colour but I don't go around bashing 1ers in other colours. Anyways, I think that's enough with the examples.

I for one am a huge fan of the DCT and think it's a big step forward and I hope to have it on my next car. It has enough driver involvement for me and it is unbelievably quick. Everyone bought their car for different reasons and the transmission choice is no different.

/thread.

Well said

[MikeVictor]

Originally Posted by BMW86

The Manual v DCT will rage on until the end of time.

Before the DCT and faster autos came along, there were always some manual drivers that would constantly rave on about how the manual was faster, that it was more involving, that it was more hardcore, I could go on and on. Those types were so passionate about letting the world know they drive a manual and went out of their way to put you down if you drove a slushbox. I hear it time and time again, if they don't make it in manual then I would rather drive whatever else. I never understood why, I put it down to an ego thing. Fair enough you love your manual but keep it in your pants.

Now the tides have turned. The DCT is without a doubt faster and better than the manual in every aspect that is performance related. The steptronic in its own right has proven to be consistently faster than the manual as well. Now I'm seeing some of the DCT drivers coming forward and giving stick to those hardcore manual fans and it is those passionate manual fans that don't know how to take it.

At the end of the day you're driving the same car and it's personal preference whether you drive a manual/step/DCT. You don't need to defend or justify your reasons why you chose it over the other because everyone is different. It's just another option that you tick off when you order your car.

Some of us chose to sacrifice some aspect of performance and structual rigidity so we could drive around with the top down. It wasn't my cup of tea but I don't go out of my way to put anyone with a convertible down, I appreciate what they have or keep it to myself because it doesn't affect me. I think Alpine White is the sexiest colour but I don't go around bashing 1ers in other colours. Anyways, I think that's enough with the examples.

I for one am a huge fan of the DCT and think it's a big step forward and I hope to have it on my next car. It has enough driver involvement for me and it is unbelievably quick. Everyone bought their car for different reasons and the transmission choice is no different.

+1

well written mate

[Xylarax]

Originally Posted by RPM90

I'm having trouble understanding your point there.
Can you clarify?

From what I can decipher, it seems you think that most DCT drivers are not being confused by their trans, but MT drivers are?

Your last sentence has me baffled. I don't get what you're trying to say.
Which "they" are you referring to?

My apologies for any confusion, I will re-write it more clearly.
Also, I would guess most people have made their choice before they even go for a test drive. This is why you don't see many DCT drivers being confused by their transmission's shifting. What you do see is MT drivers reporting about their test driving a DCT, and being confused by the shifting. They(MT who hates DCT) don't plan on liking the transmission, and they need reasons to not like it.
Really, I feel like a lot of this "confusion" is people needing a reason to not like the transmission. I think the same can be true of people who wanted to buy a DCT but felt like they should test the MT. You will hear "I didn't like the feel of the clutch", "the shifter was too 'notchy', blah blah. Maybe this is all the ramblings of someone who hasn't been confused by the DCT yet and is baffled as to how anyone could be.

To answer the other question Why does DCTD(DCT driver) seem defensive?
I bet its because MTDs (MT driver) assume they don't know how to driver a manual and that makes them lesser human beings. We have already seen those comments in this thread. It is also a part of labeling, DCTDs want to be labeled as such, MTDs are scared of no longer having the 95% superior transmission, so in a panic they call DCTDs automatic drivers. DCTDs lash back and how stupid MTDs must be to not realize the differences, MTDs act like they aren't big differences, DCTDs feel like they have to then prove themselves, by yelling back about performance, and how it(the DCT) is smarter than you(the MT driver). Read through the whole thread though, look at how many posts look defensive, you will find it goes both ways.

My favorite part is how defensive members of MTD think DCTD is lazy/stupid, but DCT is fast and a cool toy and defensive members of DCTD think MTD is stupid/ignorant and that MT is distracting (for tracking), and a cool toy.

[JB135MDCT]

Originally Posted by GatorVert

My point was that it was you who used the term 'we.' You lumped yourself into the subset of DCTers whom I mentioned were defensive about their choice; I had not.

So does the shoe fit?

I'm speaking for most DCTers that WE are not defensive, because most love their DCT purchase so there is no reason to be. The reality is a bias of MTers knocking on DCTers, and this is far stronger correlation of MTers of being defensive.

No, the shoe does not fit. And, go troll somewhere else. There must be a girl section about convertibles you can find.

[schmeah]

Originally Posted by GatorVert

I've been lurking here on this board for about two months, and only recently started posting, but if there's one observation I would make so far, it's that an awful lot of people who chose the DCT sure seem awfully defensive about their choice.

CERTAINLY not all, mind you, but it seems to be a common trait among many, and I guess I'm just curious as to why.

I personally could not fathom the thought of buying a BMW with fewer than three pedals, but I don't think it makes you a bad person if you disagree.

Why all the fuss?

I personally could not fathom the thought of settling for a BMW with fewer than 3 liters ... (meant only for GatorVert, not any of you other 328i guys)

[JB135MDCT]

Originally Posted by RPM90

Really?
Please point them out.

There was one that I recall, but the poster said he was kidding in a later post.

There are plenty and perhaps some are to subtle to cry about, but I am tired of this. It's purely an argument of peoples conservative nature at adopting new technology. It all started with the steam engine. I'd rather strap my ass on top of a 1 horse power with it's smooth back and smelly ass rather than a more powerful and faster steam tractor. Maybe the Mters should go back to cutting hay by hand, I've got a sickle if you would like to borrow it. The combine is automatic and the purest would rather roll their own hay because it's more fun.

[///M Rakete]

Originally Posted by RPM90

See, your post seemed reasonable until that last comment.
I've been one of the more "vocal" people about this issue, and I've never said that a DCT driver is not an enthusiast, or is less of one.

Your comment demonstrates the defensiveness that goes on.
I think some are reading too much into certain comments, that is not there in the first place.

Huh? Rejecting a label is being defensive?

Perhaps I should have said "I don't care if I am considered an 'enthusiast' or not by anyone for any reason whatsoever!"

Sounds more like selfishly arrogant independence to me.

By the way my last comment about "not caring" was not directed at you or anyone else in particular. Someone earlier had postulated that such a connection between "enthusiast" and transmission choice was in play. Hence my response was against that notion.

[GatorVert]

Originally Posted by schmeah

I personally could not fathom the thought of settling for a BMW with fewer than 3 liters ... (meant only for GatorVert, not any of you other 328i guys)

Then you should not have bought your current BMW, which sizes out at 2.979 liters.

Could you be more of a dumbass?

[schmeah]

Originally Posted by GatorVert

Then you should not have bought your current BMW, which sizes out at 2.979 liters.

Could you be more of a dumbass?

Then I could not fathom settling for a BMW with fewer than 2.978 liters.

Getting a little defensive are we ?

[GatorVert]

Originally Posted by JB135MDCT

It's purely an argument of peoples conservative nature at adopting new technology.

You miss the point so badly you embarrass yourself.

I send dozens of e-mails a day, but when I want to make an impression, I get out the stationery and ink.

Is the ballpoint better 'technology' than the fountain pen? Yeah, I guess so...it rarely leaks, it writes identically on most papers, its ink is largely permanent, and it doesn't need to be re-filled every two weeks.

Fountain pens are undergoing a huge resurgence.

Why ,you ask?

Perhaps it's because, in both cases, people ENJOY THEM MORE!

That's all it boils down to...a personal choice as to WHAT YOU ENJOY MORE!

[GatorVert]

Originally Posted by schmeah

Then I could not fathom settling for a BMW with fewer than 2.978 liters.

Getting a little defensive are we ?

What would I have to be defensive about?

My engine's bigger than yours.

[schmeah]

Originally Posted by GatorVert

Fountain pens are undergoing a huge resurgence.

Why ,you ask?

[JB135MDCT]

Originally Posted by GatorVert

You miss the point so badly you embarrass yourself.

I send dozens of e-mails a day, but when I want to make an impression, I get out the stationery and ink.

Is the ballpoint better 'technology' than the fountain pen? Yeah, I guess so...it rarely leaks, it writes identically on most papers, its ink is largely permanent, and it doesn't need to be re-filled every two weeks.

Fountain pens are undergoing a huge resurgence.

Why ,you ask?

Perhaps it's because, in both cases, people ENJOY THEM MORE!

That's all it boils down to...a personal choice as to WHAT YOU ENJOY MORE!

Arrogant self serving boy, I see you enjoy insulting people. You sound like a desk man who just graduated from law school with no common sense. All your high class friends are buying fountain pens, you should too. Maybe you can put up your quartz watch up against my coaxial.

I missed the point. Have you read the title of the thread? You don't even drive a DCT and you start off by ragging on DCTers. 128 does not qualify in this discussion, you are inherently pointless.

[RPM90]

Originally Posted by BMW86

The Manual v DCT will rage on until the end of time.

Before the DCT and faster autos came along, there were always some manual drivers that would constantly rave on about how the manual was faster, that it was more involving, that it was more hardcore, I could go on and on. Those types were so passionate about letting the world know they drive a manual and went out of their way to put you down if you drove a slushbox. I hear it time and time again, if they don't make it in manual then I would rather drive whatever else. I never understood why, I put it down to an ego thing. Fair enough you love your manual but keep it in your pants.

Now the tides have turned. The DCT is without a doubt faster and better than the manual in every aspect that is performance related. The steptronic in its own right has proven to be consistently faster than the manual as well. Now I'm seeing some of the DCT drivers coming forward and giving stick to those hardcore manual fans and it is those passionate manual fans that don't know how to take it.

At the end of the day you're driving the same car and it's personal preference whether you drive a manual/step/DCT. You don't need to defend or justify your reasons why you chose it over the other because everyone is different. It's just another option that you tick off when you order your car.

Some of us chose to sacrifice some aspect of performance and structual rigidity so we could drive around with the top down. It wasn't my cup of tea but I don't go out of my way to put anyone with a convertible down, I appreciate what they have or keep it to myself because it doesn't affect me. I think Alpine White is the sexiest colour but I don't go around bashing 1ers in other colours. Anyways, I think that's enough with the examples.

I for one am a huge fan of the DCT and think it's a big step forward and I hope to have it on my next car. It has enough driver involvement for me and it is unbelievably quick. Everyone bought their car for different reasons and the transmission choice is no different.

I doubt that the majority of manual drivers bought a manual simply because it was faster than the auto version.
I know I didn't.
The sportronic is a fine trans and it's just as fast as the manual.
The thought of which one was faster played no part in my choosing a manual.
I test drove only the sportronic as that's all there was on the dealer lots.
But, I've had an E46 manual BMW and knew what that is like.
I wanted to test the sportronic to see what BMW did with it, and it's amazing how much BMW improved it over the previous iterations.
Yet, I didn't enjoy it enough to pick it over the manual.
BTW, that's NOT an insult to anyone who got the sportronic.

One more thing, the sportronic has not proven to be consistently faster than the manual in stock form.
It is as fast as the manual. Even BMW lists the sportronic as being .1 seconds slower to 60.
In real world driving, the auto and manual are fast as each other.
This has been proven by professionally tested cars.
Please don't post the 1/4 mile page. Those are modified cars, and there are a LOT more automatics in the world of 135's, so it stands to reason that automatics dominate the list.

The one thing that can be said of the automatic is that it's accel times are much more consistent, which is a factor related to the fact that by the technical nature of an automatic, it doesn't rely on the drivers manual shifting skill to achieve consistency, as it does when driving a manual.
That too is not an insult.

[RPM90]

Originally Posted by Xylarax

My apologies for any confusion, I will re-write it more clearly.
Also, I would guess most people have made their choice before they even go for a test drive. This is why you don't see many DCT drivers being confused by their transmission's shifting. What you do see is MT drivers reporting about their test driving a DCT, and being confused by the shifting. They(MT who hates DCT) don't plan on liking the transmission, and they need reasons to not like it.
Really, I feel like a lot of this "confusion" is people needing a reason to not like the transmission. I think the same can be true of people who wanted to buy a DCT but felt like they should test the MT. You will hear "I didn't like the feel of the clutch", "the shifter was too 'notchy', blah blah. Maybe this is all the ramblings of someone who hasn't been confused by the DCT yet and is baffled as to how anyone could be.

To answer the other question Why does DCTD(DCT driver) seem defensive?
I bet its because MTDs (MT driver) assume they don't know how to driver a manual and that makes them lesser human beings. We have already seen those comments in this thread. It is also a part of labeling, DCTDs want to be labeled as such, MTDs are scared of no longer having the 95% superior transmission, so in a panic they call DCTDs automatic drivers. DCTDs lash back and how stupid MTDs must be to not realize the differences, MTDs act like they aren't big differences, DCTDs feel like they have to then prove themselves, by yelling back about performance, and how it(the DCT) is smarter than you(the MT driver). Read through the whole thread though, look at how many posts look defensive, you will find it goes both ways.

My favorite part is how defensive members of MTD think DCTD is lazy/stupid, but DCT is fast and a cool toy and defensive members of DCTD think MTD is stupid/ignorant and that MT is distracting (for tracking), and a cool toy.

I'll try to make this my last post on this thread, as the comments are getting repetitive and descending to a personal level.

This has sunk to personal generalizations.
I haven't read a post in this thread that DCT driver is a "lesser human", or stupid, or lazy. So I don't see/read what you read.

It comes to this; the very thing that MT drivers like is the very thing that automatic and DCT drivers don't like. It's that obvious.
What is that thing?
MT drivers like having to use a 3rd pedal, moving a lever from gear to gear, manually rev matching, and the added challenge of getting it right and getting better at it.
Auto and DCT drivers don't like or want to do that.
And that's perfectly fine. That's why there are choices. That's why some like silver with black leather, while some like red with beige leather.

I don't see a problem with not liking one trans over the other, and expressing the reasons why one likes or dislikes a particular trans.
The problem is when people start attacking people personally for their choice, instead of sticking to discussion or debate of the technology itself.
Yes, this happens on all sides.

The other problem is that some people take a technical discussion in a personal way. When someone says, "I don't like the delayed feeling of a torque converter trans.", someone will chime in and post how their decision was based on what they wanted, and that they don't need to use a 3rd pedal to enjoy their car. Then, the other poster takes insult and comes back with, "If you learned to drive in the first place, you'd see that you're wrong."
That's how it gets personal.

I'd also like to comment on your assessment that people have their mind made up before they test drive.
You do have good grasp of the types of comments that do get personal.
However, you make a lot of generalizations and assumptions about superiority, confusion, ignorance, and other things.

Just because someone posts that their experience with a particular trans left them with a negative experience, doesn't mean they went in not wanting to like it, and are posting their opinion just to be insulting.
I don't agree with your generalizations.

The hardcore trans lovers on either side don't even want to test the other one. Those are the people who will get insulting.
People who are true enthusiasts will try out the new technology to see what it is and if they like it. They may not like and they say so.
Again, some people take that as in insult when all it was was a personal observation on the TECHNOLOGY, not on the people who actually like it.

Also, if you read in other posts and BMW forums, you'll see that plenty of DCT drivers are confused with how their trans operates, in terms of why it does what it does, why it feels how it does, etc...
But, if a MT driver points out the same things, they are "confused" or being insulting and looking for reasons to not like it?
I don't think so.

Regarding whether a DCT is a manual or automatic, that has been covered in other threads. Those who understand the technology know what it is.
Those who choose not to understand the technology are the ones who also get personally insulting.
I've posted extensively trying to explain why the DCT is NOT like a torque converter automatic, even though the DCT operates automatically.

That's it. I promote respect for other enthusiasts choices.
And, I welcome debate and discussion on what one like or dislikes with the technology used. If someone finds those types of comments personally offensive, then that's on them.

[RPM90]

Originally Posted by JB135MDCT

There are plenty and perhaps some are to subtle to cry about, but I am tired of this. It's purely an argument of peoples conservative nature at adopting new technology. It all started with the steam engine. I'd rather strap my ass on top of a 1 horse power with it's smooth back and smelly ass rather than a more powerful and faster steam tractor. Maybe the Mters should go back to cutting hay by hand, I've got a sickle if you would like to borrow it. The combine is automatic and the purest would rather roll their own hay because it's more fun.

I won't generalize about DCT drivers being defensive, but i will say that YOU are quite defensive and insulting.
Adopting new technology has got NOTHING to do with a MT driver choosing a manual over a sportronic or DCT.

Your comments clearly show that YOU have the superiority complex as you think you're somehow more progressive and in-the-know.

Yeah, that was personal, and you asked for it.

Now, I'm done. This has gotten boorish and boring.

[JB135MDCT]

Originally Posted by RPM90

I won't generalize about DCT drivers being defensive, but i will say that YOU are quite defensive and insulting.
Adopting new technology has got NOTHING to do with a MT driver choosing a manual over a sportronic or DCT.

Your comments clearly show that YOU have the superiority complex as you think you're somehow more progressive and in-the-know.

Yeah, that was personal, and you asked for it.

Now, I'm done. This has gotten boorish and boring.

I was not saying tech adopt phobia for everyone. My feelings are directed to DCT insulters, not trying to insult a decent MTer such as you. I still drive MTs you know.

Interesting criticism, perhaps I'm misunderstood, but I'm just average person who drives a kick ass car. I realize I quoted you and it was intended to be indirect

Done here too.

[GatorVert]

Originally Posted by JB135MDCT

And, go troll somewhere else. There must be a girl section about convertibles you can find.

Originally Posted by JB135MDCT

Arrogant self serving boy, I see you enjoy insulting people.

Sigh.

So now I'm a girl because I have a convertible? Is everyone who owns a convertible a girl in your book?

Does the word 'overcompensating' mean anything at all to you?

I agree with RPM90...this is boorish, and I'm done with this thread too.

[MikeVictor]

[JB135MDCT]

Feed the MT Trollers some DCT. Maybe we should predict when these MTers will switch to DCT? At least if they never had a taste they won't ever miss it.

The party don't start until we get on the track. Tic toc on DCT, don't let MTers stop you now.

DCT. Faster, stronger and more fun to drive. I predict we will never look back. Maybe someone will drop a DCT into their 89 325is auto or e21.

[IndyMike]

Picked up a calculator and ciphered that it's not quite 3 years yet.

But just curious, for whatever reason anybody move back to MT or jonesing to do so already?

Those that haven't yet, any of the bloom off the DCT rose?

I'm up to 4 years, and 99% of the time being in auto mode in the R32.

Funny, I'm now of the opinion that sequentials for me are better suited for weekend/track duties than DD.................paddling in minor doses would keep it somewhat fresh.

Will be sore tempted to test drive the R20 when it makes it to NA continent.............MT only.

Time to retrain the little frau on the nuances of a manual.

Winds of change are going to blow.

[sjp3003]

Originally Posted by IndyMike

80% of those on this board that move from manual to DCT will be back to manual within 3 to 4 years.

+1

BTDT...was swayed by Maser's Cambiocorsa electrohydraulic clutch in '04 and have never bought another car with a similar system since then. DCT was tempting (especially for $495) and a step or two up from Maser's '04 system, but I prefer to row my own gears.