Long-term maintainability of BMWs

[JimD]

I like TrueDelta for reliability information. It does not have any BMWs more than a few years old, however. The 128 and 328i numbers (it tracks trips to the dealer per 100 vehicles) are as good as the Honda, Toyotas, Lexuses, and Acuras. Like 18 visits/100 vehicles per year. The 135/335 is worse but still average or a little better (around 40 visits/100 vehicles/year).

Any trips are annoying but I do not see evidence Japanese are better. My bosses wife's Odyssey is on it's third transmission. If any make was bullet-proof there would be more going out of business because we would all want one. I think Honda and Toyota are over-rated and thus over priced so I have not purchased one, yet. I drive Toyotas pretty regularly as rentals and I'd rather drive a Hyundai.

Jim

[olmy]

Some of my co-workers have also had problems with their new Hondas. I have over 85,000 trouble-free miles on my 2004 330Ci (and that's using the recommended oil change intervals with full-synthetic).

[mtla4]

Originally Posted by JimD

I like TrueDelta for reliability information. It does not have any BMWs more than a few years old, however. The 128 and 328i numbers (it tracks trips to the dealer per 100 vehicles) are as good as the Honda, Toyotas, Lexuses, and Acuras. Like 18 visits/100 vehicles per year. The 135/335 is worse but still average or a little better (around 40 visits/100 vehicles/year).

Any trips are annoying but I do not see evidence Japanese are better. My bosses wife's Odyssey is on it's third transmission. If any make was bullet-proof there would be more going out of business because we would all want one. I think Honda and Toyota are over-rated and thus over priced so I have not purchased one, yet. I drive Toyotas pretty regularly as rentals and I'd rather drive a Hyundai.

Jim

Honda 3.5 engines and tranny can be a problem. Ive never seen a japanese car experience coil pack problems, nor peeling interior and so on. I love european cars but being honest they face stupid problems and need software upgrade all the times 28.1 29.1 29.2 etc etc etc too many things

[TMR013]

Originally Posted by twang

I suppose, if people drove their BMWs like they drove Corollas and Civics, they'd last just as long. But that's not the point of these cars, and it's a shame that to drive them like they were intended comes with such a high price, outstanding engineering notwithstanding.

Don't know about Corollas, but I drove the shit out of my old S2000 before I got my 1. That car had not lost a millisecond in the 4 years I had it, and never gave me an ounce of trouble.
Don't want to sound like I'm talking up Hondas over BMWs. Just saying I knew going into this car that I would probably not have that kind of reliability. But I also knew I was getting a much better/funner car for that trade-off. That's what I think a lot of people have trouble with on these forums, they don't want to make that trade-off.

[SupremePower3335]

Originally Posted by TMR013

You will find endless posts on the new maintenance schedules if you search a bit. Lots of arguments about whether this is some sort of conspiracy by BMW to make us replace our cars sooner, or save a few bucks.
IMO, what a lot of people don't take into account is the march of technology. Most of us were brought up in the age of replace your oil every 3000 miles if you want your engine to last. Not sure that's really the case any more.
My plan is to keep my 1 for at least 8 years. But, I am also considering an extended warrantee for the first time in my life as well. In the end, BMW has never been known for long term reliability, and no doubt are more expensive to maintain.

DITTO - I am going to do the same. It is cheap insurance and it wont kill the wallet.

Originally Posted by Lexington

"Once BMW began paying for scheduled maintenance, lo and behold the schedule was continually revised to eliminate maintenance items. Today, according to BMW, the cars hardly need any maintenance at all. The 1,200-mile break-in service was done away with except for M cars. Engine oil suddenly lasts 15,000 miles (dealers are supposed to use BMW synthetic oil). Manual gearbox and differential oil? Now BMW says they never need to be changed on the non-M cars; it’s “lifetime fill.” Brake fluid and coolant service intervals were doubled with no change in the original BMW brake fluid. As of 2005, coolant is now “lifetime fill” as well – with no change in the actual coolant. So, is today’s BMW Maintenance Program all about marketing and cost reduction – BMW’s costs? Draw your own conclusions. There is no doubt that many buyers view BMWs as high maintenance cars and that can be an impediment to sales – but it is also
entirely correct. Nothing can address that more effectively than Free Scheduled Maintenance. The operative word in the name is “scheduled.” In my opinion, extended service intervals and “lifetime fill” came very close on the heels of Free Scheduled Maintenance."

Makes you wonder about the "lifetime" fluids when BMW has to pay for them. I've heard of some real horror stories on the first oil change (after 5000 miles that people pay for themselves) about metal shavings and what not..as I said above personally I am going to do it...

[richmondmike]

Originally Posted by jpd

Clutch, clutch. Six speeds make a lot of sense, but if you are not a driver of manuels you can wear out a clutch in a few thousand miles. MINI found this out in 2003-2006. You can add more warranty when you purchase the car. I believe it's another 2K.

Yeah I dunno about that one. My e36 M3 had the original clutch with 115K on it and it was still perfect.

[Red Bread]

Originally Posted by richmondmike

Yeah I dunno about that one. My e36 M3 had the original clutch with 115K on it and it was still perfect.

Yeah, I hate to bring this up, but I have the original clutch in my 125k mile M Coupe too. Original radiator too (probably pushing it with that one).

[2snail]

Originally Posted by mtla4

Being honest from my past experiences

Japanese>American>Euro in term of reliability. Yes the japanese might drive differently but they were pretty much reliable. I've never experienced a check engine from any car beside my european cars. Fun to drive but be ready to spend some time in the shop or driving loaners.

European cars often have stupid problems like condensation in lights, bad interior fit and finish which leads to premature wear etc....
This will not stop me from driving european cars but as a daily I'm done. I didn't really care at one point but I'm just fed up for now.
I'm talking about Mercedes, Bmw, Audi had them all and none of them were not problem free cars. Trust me my swapped modded Honda-Mazda-Nissan back in the days were more reliable then all these cars.

welcome back to the dark side

[spyderx]

so how do you like the X?

[2snail]

the X is a blast to drive. AWD is a whole new beast. I do notice that it has basically no low end torque until the turbo spools around 3K. I think the n54 felt much more powerful but it has 1 extra turbo and 1 more liter of displacement.

I like that I feel more connected to the road, but on long drives 3+ hours I do miss the 1er's smoother suspension.

[mtla4]

Originally Posted by 2snail

the X is a blast to drive. AWD is a whole new beast. I do notice that it has basically no low end torque until the turbo spools around 3K. I think the n54 felt much more powerful but it has 1 extra turbo and 1 more liter of displacement.

I like that I feel more connected to the road, but on long drives 3+ hours I do miss the 1er's smoother suspension.

Funny my friend wants to sell me his EVO X...I'm still evaluating the option to replace my current DD. I love the car. I liked the 1er too but I know it's replacement and there was no point taking more depreciation so I sold that quick and used the other cars.

[zeelimit]

I have a '92 735i, an '02 525I (touring), and a '08 125i (convertible).I think these are great cars for long-term ownership. On the '92, many parts failed at the 12 year mark and it was a few thousand, but that has been the only time that the cars were expensive to maintain.

One thing I will say about BMWs is they drive as well as they get older as they did when new. My 92 has does the same 0-60 as when I got it. Of course 8-9 seconds is not impressive today, but I can't blame the car for progress.

I had an Acura years ago and it looked like a heap after 12 years. My wife was pulled over for no other reason then driving it in a nice residential area. BMWs hold up over the years.

My one complaint is with the dealers. If you do not have an independent mechanic, sell the car when the maintenance stops being free. But I have had had worse complaints about dealer service with Acura, Mazda, and Mercedes.

[mtla4]

Originally Posted by zeelimit

I have a '92 735i, an '02 525I (touring), and a '08 125i (convertible).I think these are great cars for long-term ownership. On the '92, many parts failed at the 12 year mark and it was a few thousand, but that has been the only time that the cars were expensive to maintain.

One thing I will say about BMWs is they drive as well as they get older as they did when new. My 92 has does the same 0-60 as when I got it. Of course 8-9 seconds is not impressive today, but I can't blame the car for progress.

I had an Acura years ago and it looked like a heap after 12 years. My wife was pulled over for no other reason then driving it in a nice residential area. BMWs hold up over the years.

My one complaint is with the dealers. If you do not have an independent mechanic, sell the car when the maintenance stops being free. But I have had had worse complaints about dealer service with Acura, Mazda, and Mercedes.

The new bimmers will be a pain to repair

[michifan]

Originally Posted by mtla4

The new bimmers will be a pain to repair

All new cars will be more difficult to repair than vehicles 10 years ago, and those vehicles are a bigger pain than 10 years prior, and so on, and so on and so on.

As someone that spent the first 8 years of my career at the Blue Oval in Powertrain Operations (Engine and Transmission), most of the complexity is being driven by emissions and fuel economy. Engines today run on the cutting edge of performance (imagine a V6 with over 300 HP and 25 MPG 10 years ago) but give remarkable fuel and emissions productivity.

Very few people take their vehicles past 10 years / 100,000 miles, but I don't think there is any real problem in the N54 that regular maintenance and reasonable use won't allow it to get past that milestone. As long as you watch your fluids and treat your car as the engineers intended (which with a BMW is a bit more aggressive than a Toyota), you'll have a long and enjoyable life with your car.

[fwmcb]

I came from SAABs and before that GMC trucks, the old Sierra was the most reliable vehicle I've ever had, until my ex decided that hopping the curb allowed her access to her own personal passing lane aka the sidewalk. but even then just tore off a skid plate... The SAABs were a total pain, my last one spent the last 8 months of my lease back and forth to the dealer, just constant issues.

We have had a couple BMWs in the family since an e92 and most recently an e82. Both cars have done better in their first year than other cars I've had or my parents had growing up. I do need to preface this by stating that my folks had an affinity for British cars in the era of lucas electronics. Although they were attractive vehicles and true performers when they worked. I think if you are after any enthusiast type vehicle you have to expect some quirks, even if it is German, it is just one of the joys of ownership. If I wanted an appliance I would have bought a Malibu an Accord or a Prius.

[plasar]

Originally Posted by twang

Hello all,
1) How does everyone think the new(er) BMWs will hold up long-term?
2) Are we moving toward a day when our cars become unmaintainable when the manufacturer stops supporting them, like some software product?
3) On top of that, BMW doesn't seem to consider longevity to be a design factor any more, with things like "lifetime fill" and 15,000-mile oil change intervals and removal of the dipstick, etc.

Welcome Twang!

1) Buy a Japanese car for reliability and probably lowest long term lifecycle cost. Buy a BMW to smile every mile you drive (and screw the costs)!
2) We're already there, dealers/we diagnose many/most problems by reading the "error codes".
3) Some will argue that oil can last 15K mi and tranny/diff fluids are lifetime, and you should be sending these fluids to a test lab to check health. I'd change at 7.5K and 50K. The only drawback of the electronic oil reading is it isn't instant, but needs the car to warm up. You will get a warning on your dash when you are a quart low. Respectfully, people who prefer getting their hands dirty with dipsticks are Luddites. They probably yearn for a "choke" also.

[JimD]

I don't consider myself a "luddite" but I would like a choke - on my boat motor. It has an old prime system that is worse. I wouldn't love having a choke on the car but I would deal with it if I had one. My old weed whacker has a choke - it always starts (but sometimes takes a few pulls). I have a smaller older boat motor with a choke and it started well the last time I used it.

I like things that make my life easier but I also want things to work and not cost a lot to fix when they do not work.

Jim

[bimmerboy]

I don't think any new-era BMW can be classified as reliable, simply because they are so over the top complex and always have cutting edge technology which is never proven to be reliable...

When I think of historically reliable cars (ford crown victoria, hondas, toyotas, subarus, Volvo 240s, old mercedes diesels) one thing that all of them share is their simplicity in design. Sure, some old school bmw's are certainly reliable if maintained properly, but I think the manufacturers these days have identified that reliability is not as important as it used to be, seeing how quickly people change cars. This coupled with the on-going price wars, has def. driven the long-term durability of the product down, in exchange for investing in more technology (ie. more cutting edge electronics, cutting edge engines, complex ecu's etc.).

I'm not saying this is a bad thing, but I look at it as more of a trade-off.

In 20 years, I bet that the cars still on the road form our time will be the cars that were simple in design and well engineered. Cars such as Toyotas, Hondas, Hyundais, Subarus... Kinda the same as we see now, just look what's old and still running today...

[crzy4135i]

Originally Posted by twang

Thanks for the feedback. I said above that I'm getting a 135i (and DCT), but deep down inside I keep wondering if a 128i and manual would more rewarding in the long run, when fun AND maintenance are factored in... with the non-turbo engine and simpler transmission.

Yea, if you're planning on keeping it a long time the 128i would be much less maintenance. I'm sure replacing turbos out of warranty wouldn't be cheap. Can't you get DCT in a 128i? That wouldn't be bad.

[michifan]

Originally Posted by bimmerboy

I don't think any new-era BMW can be classified as reliable, simply because they are so over the top complex and always have cutting edge technology which is never proven to be reliable...

Do you even bother to do a little bit of investigation before forming an opinion?

If there is one thing the auto industry has, its data. Lots and lots of data.

The average quality in cars (as measured by outside, non-affiliated companies like JD Power) has improved so much over the past 5, 10 and 15 years that the average quality (# defects per 100 vehicles) is better than the best quality cars a few years ago. BMWs have never been known for being the 'best' quality vehicles, but they have been improving pretty much at the same rate as the rest of the auto industry.

In other words, BMW is making higher quality cars today than they did 5, 10 and 15 years ago. The specifications are tighter and even though there is more technology, most of that technology is to provide higher quality and better reliability.

I'm not going to get into a relative quality discussion of BMW vs Lexus, because Lexus are built like watches - but also have pretty expensive and rigorous maintenance requirements.

The most troublesome part of our vehicles is the HPFP. I haven't had a failure yet, but I know it will happen. That being said, I've only had two warranty problems - the tail light recall and a faulty water pump at 25000 miles.

Again, some folks have had more problems than I - but I also had problems when I drove my Hondas, Infinitis, Nissans and Fords.

That being said, I wouldn't hesitate to buy the extended warranty for BMW. Because if/when things do go wrong, they are expensive to fix. But for most people, if you take care of your car - maintain your fluids and don't beat it past the point of reasonableness, you'll know in the 1st two years if you have a lemon.

[bimmerboy]

Originally Posted by michifan

Do you even bother to do a little bit of investigation before forming an opinion?

If there is one thing the auto industry has, its data. Lots and lots of data.

The average quality in cars (as measured by outside, non-affiliated companies like JD Power) has improved so much over the past 5, 10 and 15 years that the average quality (# defects per 100 vehicles) is better than the best quality cars a few years ago. BMWs have never been known for being the 'best' quality vehicles, but they have been improving pretty much at the same rate as the rest of the auto industry.

In other words, BMW is making higher quality cars today than they did 5, 10 and 15 years ago. The specifications are tighter and even though there is more technology, most of that technology is to provide higher quality and better reliability.

I'm not going to get into a relative quality discussion of BMW vs Lexus, because Lexus are built like watches - but also have pretty expensive and rigorous maintenance requirements.

The most troublesome part of our vehicles is the HPFP. I haven't had a failure yet, but I know it will happen. That being said, I've only had two warranty problems - the tail light recall and a faulty water pump at 25000 miles.

Again, some folks have had more problems than I - but I also had problems when I drove my Hondas, Infinitis, Nissans and Fords.

That being said, I wouldn't hesitate to buy the extended warranty for BMW. Because if/when things do go wrong, they are expensive to fix. But for most people, if you take care of your car - maintain your fluids and don't beat it past the point of reasonableness, you'll know in the 1st two years if you have a lemon.

I agree that almost every car maker is making better quality products through technology and innovation, but disagree that better quality= better long-term reliability. Sure, the panel gaps of cars today are much tighter than cars 10 years ago, but the electrical systems have also become that much more complicated... Time will tell how reliable our cars are..

[michifan]

Originally Posted by bimmerboy

I agree that almost every car maker is making better quality products through technology and innovation, but disagree that better quality= better long-term reliability. Sure, the panel gaps of cars today are much tighter than cars 10 years ago, but the electrical systems have also become that much more complicated... Time will tell how reliable our cars are..

Quality as measured by JD Power and the other outside quality companies aren't about gaps in the fenders. It's about dealers tracking every single manufacturer related claim and submitting them to the outside reporting agency. If your radio fails or your HPFP goes out, it gets reported 100% of the time. That data is then collected and reviewed.

Further, durability testing is so much more robust as testing capabilities are better. Manufacturers and vendors have much better statistical models to determine their products durability and that durability is audited and reviewed. Lower than promised durability results in chargebacks to the vendor.

Of course time will tell how reliable our cars are, but there is concrete reliability testing that gives auto manufacturers confidence that it will.