BMW 1 Series Coupe Forum / 1 Series Convertible Forum (1M / tii / 135i / 128i / Coupe / Cabrio / Hatchback) (BMW E82 E88 128i 130i 135i)
 





 

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      05-20-2007, 09:56 AM   #23
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Originally Posted by Brookside View Post
Coupe and convertible are scheduled to debut at Franfurt in September according to Scott.

Let's face it, BMW has all the stuff in it's toybox to make the 1-er a very special car. Hitting the target on model prices is going to be a huge challenge. But I don't think that the possible price overlap with the 3-series is such a determining factor...the 1-er has its own set of customer base...much different than the typical buyer for a "3".

I mean, is anyone on this forum remotely considering a 3-er sedan if the engine choice they want isn't there or if a 3.0, for example, in the 1-er is only a shade less expensive than the 3-er? It's like comparing apples and oranges.


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I agree. I'm not considering a 3 at all. I'm just praying that there will be a 135i so I dont have to spend 45k on an M.(which would probably delay me from having the 1 another 2 years!!)
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      05-20-2007, 10:00 AM   #24
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"Getting price points zeroed in on target are what's going to really affect the mass popularity of the car. In no way is it going to be perceived as a cut-rate BMW."

I agree 100%. But the perception of the 3-series being the ultimate sports sedan and GT coupe will be difficult to overcome. I totally agree that the 1-series is the most anticipated model in years (I just can't wait). But people always approach "new" models with a certain amount of comparison to the established. The 1-series will look substantially similar to the 3-series, leading to the inevitable comparisons by the automotive press and public in general.

Most customers in the US anyway value interior volume, to some it is a premium. That is why the 3 series has gained so much weight and volume over the last two generations. Many like you and I want a return to the smaller car. But we have to appreciate the phenomena that created the bigger 3-series in the first place. The larger 3-series has sold in record numbers since it has gotten larger in 1999.

Therefore, although the 1-series will have a loyal following and the most rabid BMW fans will be drawn to it, don't underestimate the draw of status on the American consumer. And no matter how good the 1-series is or becomes, it will always be considered the little brother to the 3-series. To use a more crude example, consider the Mustang of the 80's. Everyone knew that the "coupe" LX 5.0 (as opposed to the liftback) was the fastest best performing Mustang. But it didn't sell as well. Why? Because it did not have the go fast looks of the GT or the interior amenities. (Yes I realize the average BMW customer is more sophisticated than a Ford Mustang buyer) But the same market forces and generalized personal preferences predominate in all market segments.

Your example of some of the most ardent BMW owners are of the "7". I would agree, but if weight, driving simplicity, and total vehicle performance were there greatest draw they wouldn't be driving a 7.

For the 1-series to be iconic, "value" has to be one of the greatest cards for it to play. And there will be only one car that it will compare to in the beginning, the 3-series. If the car is overpriced in comparison to the 3-series it's market will be diminished.
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      05-20-2007, 10:04 AM   #25
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In order for this all to work the 1 series needs to be starting around $27K. Any higher than that and most people will not see the advantage over a 328i.

With that being said, the next step will have to be around $5K more. I don't see BMW discounting their TT engine to be placed in a car for $32K. Such a move would risk a significant cannibalism of 335i sales (of both coupe and sedan numbers). Don't forget the convertable is coming and BMW has to charge a premium over the coupe, but get it below $40K.

Therefore, the 135i coupe at $35K with options over $40K and a 135i convertable at over $45K? This makes no sense. They won't do that. I have no doubt that the TT will probably be in the 1 series, but only as the M. Then they can charge what they want because people will pay it.

Additionally, they will probably detune the 128 and retune the 130 so that there would be a marketable difference in performance to justify a $4-5K difference.
I see your point, but they can do whatever they really want with pricing. Look at the base price of these cars.

328i- 32,400 335i sedan- 38,900
528- 44,000 535i sedan- 49,400

The price gaping between those cars with the SAME engine is incredible!!! I believe they are that large because of the class that each car is in. So personally, I believe BMW could easily give us that TT coupe for $33,000.
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      05-20-2007, 11:31 AM   #26
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"328i- 32,400 335i sedan- 38,900
528- 44,000 535i sedan- 49,400"

The problem with these numbers is that the 335i Coupe starts at $40,800. The further problem is most come with leather and other options that BMW and their dealers love to charge for. So rack up another 3-4 grand there. Therefore, the typical 335i is really closer to $44,000 for a coupe.

Therefore, the 135i would have an $11,000 difference before options for the base 135i. (at your proposed $33,000) Whereas Sedan buyers are typically looking at room and car seat potential, etc, etc., Coupe buyers don't care about maximizing room in the cabin. So as long as the 135i has enough room for the front two passengers the rest is a non-factor for most. BMW wants the 135i to be cheaper than the 335i, but they don't want it to be a steal either.

Most 335i (coupe) customers want the performance, therefore, and unlike sedan customers would not mind sacrificing room for the extra speed and handling prowess (hense your desire and mine, lol). BMW knows this and therefore will not throw the 335i coupe under the bus like that. Sorry, just an opinion, but one that I think is justified watching the pricing for the last twenty years.
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      05-20-2007, 11:36 AM   #27
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the 1 series coupe and the M1 should be priced not to high just to get the cult status. Everybody that want s something exclusive buy a m3 or m5 or m6. Let the m1 be for the driving enthusiasts with a smaler pocket which can bring the car to a cult status. Give the m1 or coupe a high price tag and the car will not be populair under driver enthusiasts. People with more money will buy more status so they will buy the 3 coupe.

A 1 coupe will be hotseller but it s populairity depends a lot on the asking price.
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      05-20-2007, 12:43 PM   #28
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Quote:
Originally Posted by brett8210 View Post
"328i- 32,400 335i sedan- 38,900
528- 44,000 535i sedan- 49,400"

The problem with these numbers is that the 335i Coupe starts at $40,800. The further problem is most come with leather and other options that BMW and their dealers love to charge for. So rack up another 3-4 grand there. Therefore, the typical 335i is really closer to $44,000 for a coupe.

Therefore, the 135i would have an $11,000 difference before options for the base 135i. (at your proposed $33,000) Whereas Sedan buyers are typically looking at room and car seat potential, etc, etc., Coupe buyers don't care about maximizing room in the cabin. So as long as the 135i has enough room for the front two passengers the rest is a non-factor for most. BMW wants the 135i to be cheaper than the 335i, but they don't want it to be a steal either.

Most 335i (coupe) customers want the performance, therefore, and unlike sedan customers would not mind sacrificing room for the extra speed and handling prowess (hense your desire and mine, lol). BMW knows this and therefore will not throw the 335i coupe under the bus like that. Sorry, just an opinion, but one that I think is justified watching the pricing for the last twenty years.
If you order your car it can be a base 335i. I have a neighbor that did just that. He waited 6 weeks and got the car that he wanted. I respect your opinion. Only time will tell. I still say 33,000ish!!! :iono: I mean if it starts at 33k, add on typical options and your at 36,000 for a small car already.
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      05-20-2007, 01:43 PM   #29
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Originally Posted by Brookside View Post
Coupe and convertible are scheduled to debut at Franfurt in September according to Scott.
So basically we have to wait until then to see it without camo? I hope we'll be seeing more of the rear soon.
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      05-20-2007, 01:55 PM   #30
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Therefore, the 135i coupe at $35K with options over $40K and a 135i convertable at over $45K? This makes no sense. They won't do that. I have no doubt that the TT will probably be in the 1 series, but only as the M. Then they can charge what they want because people will pay it.

Additionally, they will probably detune the 128 and retune the 130 so that there would be a marketable difference in performance to justify a $4-5K difference.
I'll have to disagree with you. I am not an expert in BMW history, but when was the last time the M division used a regular BMW engine on one of its cars? As far as I can remember it always used separately developed M-specific engines, which has been an important part of M-mystic. So I don't really see the M division using the N54 on the M1, tuned or not. (and it's a turbo on top of everything, and it was none other than the M division that smack-talked turbo engines not long so ago)

Also, then why are the engines in the 3 series not detuned compared to the 5 series? The price differential between 3 and 5 is most likely greater than that between 1 and 3, but BMW has no problem putting the exact same engines in 3 and 5. Why not 1? Trust me, even with the exact same engine, with $4~5K difference a lot of people will not even look at the 1. The 3 series name carries a lot of money with it.
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      05-20-2007, 03:42 PM   #31
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Well you maybe correct about the actual engine they use of an M1. My point was the performance level. I don't think they are going to drop a 300+ hp engine in a car that will only be $33K. This will be too much of a price advantage to the 3.

Believe me I hope they do. The three and the five almost weigh the same, but for a hundred pounds. And the top engine in the five is not available in the three. So why would they want to make the top engine in the three available in the 1? The one is rumored (and I hope) to be significantly lighter than the three. Hopefully in the neighborhood of 300 lbs. If that is true the performance oriented driver will opt for a 1 everytime over a 3. The same can not be said of the 5, because performance oriented drivers can go for the 550.

That is why I said the M could have the TT. But you are right, it will be more likely to be a different engine altogether.
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      05-20-2007, 04:01 PM   #32
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"If you order your car it can be a base 335i. I have a neighbor that did just that. He waited 6 weeks and got the car that he wanted."

Yes, but most people won't wait 6 weeks to order the base version. Additionally, now ask yourself why would you want the base 335i base coupe when you can order the 135i base coupe for $7500.00 cheaper? The answer is that most would go for the lighter car with slightly smaller interior if there is that great a price difference. The performance oriented driver would do it in a heartbeat.

The 3 coupe is/was the exclusive coupe for BMW for years after they stoped making the 6 in the late eighties. The new 6 doesn't really count now because they don't overlap in any significant way.

But BMW is going to allow for people to cross shop the 335i coupe with the 135? Both will substantially look the same with the engine and legendary suspension tuning. Additionally BMW will probably have about the same standard features and options available in both cars. So the question remains who would buy a 335i when the same fundamental car can be purchased for $7500 dollars cheaper?

You can't simply say that they have done this for years between the 5 and the 3, because despite their similar weights they have catered to different audiences. The 5 is substantially larger inside compared to the 3. This is more important in the sedan market.

BMW will not be able to differentiate the audience of a 1 series coupe and the 3 series coupe. In fact the 1 series will be substantially the same dimentions and performance of the M3 coupe less than 10 years ago?

Bottomline BMW will have to leave the performance advantage to the 335i. The one exception to that is when they bring out the M1, but by then the M3 will trump it in every way.
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      05-20-2007, 04:45 PM   #33
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But BMW is going to allow for people to cross shop the 335i coupe with the 135? Both will substantially look the same with the engine and legendary suspension tuning. Additionally BMW will probably have about the same standard features and options available in both cars. So the question remains who would buy a 335i when the same fundamental car can be purchased for $7500 dollars cheaper?

I dont believe people would cross-shop a 335i with a 135i. In my opinion they dont look anything alike. I think it all boils down to size. The new 3 is a long car with would have more luxury. The 1 series is smaller than a e36. correct me if im wrong. I suspect they will have very different audiences. So who would buy the 3 over the $7500 cheaper? I can think of plenty of people who would pay the premium for a larger car to put there family in, and drive to work, and go to the store. Size does not matter to me because im single, and dont need such space.
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      05-20-2007, 06:26 PM   #34
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"So who would buy the 3 over the $7500 cheaper? I can think of plenty of people who would pay the premium for a larger car to put there family in, and drive to work, and go to the store. Size does not matter to me because im single, and dont need such space."

Man I hear you, but the coupe is different. No family is using a 335i coupe. Coupe by their nature are difficult to get into the back seat. Additionally with the rear seat console, using a car seat is almost impossible. Therefore the people looking for more luxury would have to be looking for a better "ride". Because I would be willing to bet that most of the features on the Three will be available on the 1. For instance the iDrive Nav, Leather, Sport Package, Blue Tooth, Zenon lights, the list goes on.

What feature will not be available to the 1 that is on the 3? I honestly can't think of any. So then the question boils down to who will pay the greater amount of money?

I grant you some people will buy the 3 on status. Further some people just don't care what their car costs. But you have to admit that if the difference is a great as you postulate the 335i coupe will take a dramatic hit. All the automotive press will write that the 135i will be faster, and a better handler than a comparably equiped 335i. The 135i will not only be newer, but all things considered better. Will BMW allow for this?

I personally hope so, lol. But I highly doubt it.
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      05-20-2007, 08:52 PM   #35
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I'll pay $40k for a loaded 135i.. It will be the most fun car ever...
There is no point for M1 badge with 3.2I6, 135i will be faster and probably better handling than e46 m3.

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I would like the 135i as well, but when you think about it, it doesn't make much sense unless it is an M. If they price the 135i in the same way they currently price their models (with the higher 3 overlapping the lower 5, etc) then the minimum the 135i would start out at is around $35K. With Luxury and Sport packages (typical on dealer lots) you are close to $40K if not more.

That kind of money is hard to justify for a 1 series (unless of course it is an M)

I think what would be more typical is a 128i starting at $27 and a 130i starting at $32. Just a guess, but it seems to make the most sense.
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      05-20-2007, 08:56 PM   #36
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M1 with 3.0TT would be awesome.. Engine is better and much cheaper than 3.2 I6 from e46 m3..


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Originally Posted by brett8210 View Post
In order for this all to work the 1 series needs to be starting around $27K. Any higher than that and most people will not see the advantage over a 328i.

With that being said, the next step will have to be around $5K more. I don't see BMW discounting their TT engine to be placed in a car for $32K. Such a move would risk a significant cannibalism of 335i sales (of both coupe and sedan numbers). Don't forget the convertable is coming and BMW has to charge a premium over the coupe, but get it below $40K.

Therefore, the 135i coupe at $35K with options over $40K and a 135i convertable at over $45K? This makes no sense. They won't do that. I have no doubt that the TT will probably be in the 1 series, but only as the M. Then they can charge what they want because people will pay it.

Additionally, they will probably detune the 128 and retune the 130 so that there would be a marketable difference in performance to justify a $4-5K difference.
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      05-20-2007, 09:05 PM   #37
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agreed.. 335 coupe is more of a status car, a luxury GT.. I dont see many people cross shopping 145 with 325..
I nevered considered 335 coupe (not making enough loot), but for 135 I'd start eating less and open another savings account..


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I dont believe people would cross-shop a 335i with a 135i. In my opinion they dont look anything alike. I think it all boils down to size. The new 3 is a long car with would have more luxury. The 1 series is smaller than a e36. correct me if im wrong. I suspect they will have very different audiences. So who would buy the 3 over the $7500 cheaper? I can think of plenty of people who would pay the premium for a larger car to put there family in, and drive to work, and go to the store. Size does not matter to me because im single, and dont need such space.
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      05-20-2007, 11:14 PM   #38
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"I'll pay $40k for a loaded 135i.. It will be the most fun car ever..."

I am sure there would be a few that would. But with a 135i retailing over or at $40K, what is the compelling reason for the 1-series? It has to be more to BMW than just another fun car to drive. It has to have a market that is separate from the 3 series.

Those of us reading this want it for its performance potential over the 3, but the wider market has to be considered. To most customers there would not be a significant difference between a 335i and a 135i if they both cost over $40k. Therefore, the new customers are not being reached.

So in other words, you would want the 135i because it is more of a fun car to drive and the other guy may want a more luxury GT. Well that's great, because in your scenario they aren't that much different in price. I think reality is going to be that BMW wants to market the 1 series as a return to its roots. A car that doesn't have to be over powered to achieve the sports car end. Have you seen the pictures with the 2002?

To that end VALUE is the heart of the market for this car. With that said, it will perform like a dream. It just will have to do it with less than 300 hp.
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      05-20-2007, 11:27 PM   #39
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"But you have to admit that if the difference is a great as you postulate the 335i coupe will take a dramatic hit. All the automotive press will write that the 135i will be faster, and a better handler than a comparably equiped 335i. The 135i will not only be newer, but all things considered better. Will BMW allow for this?"

I've thought the same thing Brett, but its almost as if they have no choice..lol But HERE comes the big question. Should a 135 handle better and be faster than the 335i? I personally believe it should. It only makes sense because its smaller, and lighter. BMW does amazing things with the 335i, they should easily be able to eclipse that in the 1. But like you said would they allow this? All I know is they cant allow another 318ti disaster
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      05-20-2007, 11:30 PM   #40
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"agreed.. 335 coupe is more of a status car, a luxury GT.. I dont see many people cross shopping 145 with 325..
I nevered considered 335 coupe (not making enough loot), but for 135 I'd start eating less and open another savings account.."

Yeah i couldnt swing a 335i either....A 135i will be a late college graduation present to myself(by a year). Lets not forget Euro-Delivery... The price of an M1 would be financial suicide for me...
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      05-20-2007, 11:44 PM   #41
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"All I know is they cant allow another 318ti disaster "

I totally agree, but the 318ti was ugly. I haven't seen anything that would demonstrate that the 1 will be that.
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      05-21-2007, 11:37 AM   #42
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Coupe and convertible are scheduled to debut at Franfurt in September according to Scott.
Hi I have said Coupe only will debut in Frankfurt . The Cabrio will have it's Press release in October with launch scheduled for the NAIS in January.
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      05-21-2007, 11:54 AM   #43
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To that end VALUE is the heart of the market for this car. With that said, it will perform like a dream. It just will have to do it with less than 300 hp.
La-la-lala-lala-lala-lala-lala-lala-lala-la....

I can hear no more talk of a 1 series lineup absent a 3.0TT. Really, I mean it, man! This is really bumming me out. :wink:

Seriously, your make some good points, but I think there are enough people out there looking for a smaller car at a better price to support a full lineup. The M1 won't be a turbo; it'll be a "proper" M engine.

I agree that there are some marketing challenges, but BMW's marketing arm is more than capable of positioning the cars correctly. They have the opportunity to build a great bridge into BMW's for the wildly successful MINI brand and numerous other cars that are filling the gap left as the 3 series grew up. I'm still optimistic that a 135 is in the cards.

So please... Set aside all your silly logic and reasoning. Join us in a happy place where we can have a smaller, lighter car with great factory power and incredible tuning potential.

Mmmm... feels good:roundel:
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      05-21-2007, 12:45 PM   #44
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La-la-lala-lala-lala-lala-lala-lala-lala-la....

I can hear no more talk of a 1 series lineup absent a 3.0TT. Really, I mean it, man! This is really bumming me out. :wink:

Seriously, your make some good points, but I think there are enough people out there looking for a smaller car at a better price to support a full lineup. The M1 won't be a turbo; it'll be a "proper" M engine.

I agree that there are some marketing challenges, but BMW's marketing arm is more than capable of positioning the cars correctly. They have the opportunity to build a great bridge into BMW's for the wildly successful MINI brand and numerous other cars that are filling the gap left as the 3 series grew up. I'm still optimistic that a 135 is in the cards.

So please... Set aside all your silly logic and reasoning. Join us in a happy place where we can have a smaller, lighter car with great factory power and incredible tuning potential.

Mmmm... feels good:roundel:
eMini, that was the most awesome post EVER. It bums me out too!! I'm wondering if the official press release of the coupe in late May, early June will have a couple pics.
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