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      08-21-2007, 01:21 PM   #23
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TheoIam View Post
How quickly you forget the BMW introduced the E46 330ci coupe in 2001 less then a year after bringing out the 328ci coupe in 2000.
Right, because the 330ci had 50 extra horses and 80 extra lbs-ft of torque over the 328ci?

You're missing my point. 330i to 335i is such a big leap in performance, that it's more than enough to turn the 330i into an entry level car. It would still have been bigger performance gap between the two models than anything E46 saw. That is, there is nothing wrong with 330i-335i lineup in terms of performance spread. There was, however, a problem with not screwing over the first year buyers.
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      08-21-2007, 01:25 PM   #24
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Originally Posted by onehots2k View Post
"And itís all the more absurd because the correct solution is just an ECU re-coding away for BMW. "

Spin, its more than just ECU re-coding.
The difference between the 325i and the 330i was the intake and ECU programming, was it not? So at best they need to put 3 stage intake back in there along with new software. Don't tell me that will raise the production cost in any significant way.

Also, a 328i does not get better mileage than a 330i.
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      08-21-2007, 02:00 PM   #25
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Quote:
Originally Posted by spinzero View Post
200lb-ft out of a 3.0L engine is pretty bad in today's standard. .
yeah, no shit; which is why i've asked wouldn't a 4cyl. turbo with the same output be lighter and more efficient? seems moronic to detune any engine thereby reducing the output per engine weight and physical size. why didn't they just put in the 6ltr. v12 and deactivate half of the cylinders(after detuning it by 10%:biggrin;and this notion that they wouldn't be able to sell a 4cyl. bmw in the u.s. because of the experience with the 318 or whatever is such B.S. output is output.
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      08-21-2007, 02:10 PM   #26
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Quote:
Originally Posted by spinzero View Post
I think the reason that we get the 128i instead of the 130i is tied to the reason that we got the 328i instead of the 330i.

<snip>
This is important because an engine without this will either run out of steam at high RPM, which means the acceleration decreases as the rev increases, or worse yet just gutless throughout the rev range.

And itís all the more absurd because the correct solution is just an ECU re-coding away for BMW. I just hate it when marketing takes precedence over engineering.
I think you're right, or at least this is what I believe.

The 328 engine is neither a low-revver, nor is it gutless. It's a nice engine, taken on its own. It pulls smack into the rev limiter with gusto, sounds great, is smooth, and even during a (protracted, I admit) test drive, I got over 26mpg average.

But the 330 engine would be better yet.

The reason I asked the question about engine differences between the 230hp and 265hp model is as I recall reading in EVO (I think, maybe elsewhere?), there's more than just an ECU/intake difference. I believe there was a camshaft difference? Not sure. I really don't remember, and can't find the article.

There's no way the 328, or 128, will keep up with a chipped WRX. The WRX already puts out the same hp as a stock 128, and chipping the WRX (or 2.0T VAG motor) gives large gains, especially in torque. If you're used to boosted torque, the 128 will feel weak down low, indeed.

I rather enjoyed it, though, for the reasons stated above.

I'd still rather have the 265hp version.
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      08-21-2007, 02:45 PM   #27
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Originally Posted by ducati View Post
I think you're right, or at least this is what I believe.

The 328 engine is neither a low-revver, nor is it gutless. It's a nice engine, taken on its own. It pulls smack into the rev limiter with gusto, sounds great, is smooth, and even during a (protracted, I admit) test drive, I got over 26mpg average.

But the 330 engine would be better yet.

The reason I asked the question about engine differences between the 230hp and 265hp model is as I recall reading in EVO (I think, maybe elsewhere?), there's more than just an ECU/intake difference. I believe there was a camshaft difference? Not sure. I really don't remember, and can't find the article.

There's no way the 328, or 128, will keep up with a chipped WRX. The WRX already puts out the same hp as a stock 128, and chipping the WRX (or 2.0T VAG motor) gives large gains, especially in torque. If you're used to boosted torque, the 128 will feel weak down low, indeed.

I rather enjoyed it, though, for the reasons stated above.

I'd still rather have the 265hp version.
I'm sure a 328i is nice to drive. Let me just state that I'm not saying the 128i or the 328i are bad cars as whole packages. On the contrary, I'm still considering getting a 128i, despite all my whining.

I'm just very unhappy with how BMW approached this matter. It would've made more sense, like hector pointed out, to have a smaller turbo four with the same output, and possibly better gas mileage. I do not know what the exact mechanical difference is between the full on N52 and the detuned version. But my point is that whatever the exact difference is, the R&D is already done, and the production cost can't possibly be the factor for choosing x28i over x30i.

And I don't quite expect an NA 1er to feel faster than my WRX anyway. Turbo motors feel faster than they actually are due to the sudden surge of power. I will be perfectly happy with smooth linear delivery of power instead.

But I still want the full on N53. :biggrin:
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      08-21-2007, 03:02 PM   #28
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I totally agree.

Although I personally would rather a NA 6 than a turbo'd 4. I really love my 2.0T... But I really REALLY love the sexy howl and creamy delivery of an inline 6.

I am seriously considering waiting until about this time next year to see how the engine options shake out. I really would like Direct Injection, and I don't see why BMW wouldn't eventually move that route in all the 1er petrol engines to boost fuel economy (especially with the Efficient Dynamics push). I would also, honestly, consider the 123d. I've never owned a diesel before, but ~201hp, ~295tq combined with 45+mpg is quite convincing on an efficiency level.

But yeah... If the N53 slots in, I'd buy that over anything else. I just love NA inline 6's...

Sometimes I think that's my answer: buy the 128, save a little cash, enjoy it for what it is. I will wait until next August and see which way the winds are blowing. You never know, I often wake up thinking "135 baby!"
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      08-21-2007, 03:26 PM   #29
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I believe it’s more about placing products competitively.

The 128i is competing against entry level cars such as:
WRX 230hp
Mazda 3 mazdaspeed 260hp
New Lancer Raliart edition ~230hp
Civic Si 200hp
GTI 240hp
Audi A3 240hp

BMW does have a $24k entry level car anymore…….and the 128i is perfect competition for these cars in terms of price/luxury/power.

And the competition Subaru, Mitz, Honda, VW are selling lots of cars to young high school and college grads their very first cars.
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      08-21-2007, 03:43 PM   #30
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ducati View Post

But yeah... If the N53 slots in, I'd buy that over anything else. I just love NA inline 6's...

Sometimes I think that's my answer: buy the 128, save a little cash, enjoy it for what it is. I will wait until next August and see which way the winds are blowing. You never know, I often wake up thinking "135 baby!"
I want to see some test results and reviews for the 128i before I write it off. Actually, I almost want to see them more than I want to see 135i test results and reviews (since we already pretty much know it's going to be *fast*).
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      08-21-2007, 04:14 PM   #31
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Quote:
Originally Posted by spinzero View Post
There was, however, a problem with not screwing over the first year buyers.

Yup, the beta-testers got screwed. The N52 had been out for two models years in Europe (630i) prior to going into the E90. I suppose the N54 was to be expected, but no one saw it coming as soon as it did.
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      08-21-2007, 05:22 PM   #32
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TheUltimateDriver View Post
Yup, the beta-testers got screwed. The N52 had been out for two models years in Europe (630i) prior to going into the E90. I suppose the N54 was to be expected, but no one saw it coming as soon as it did.
Yeah, I remember in Bimmerfest how none of the first year E90 owners believed the rampant rumours about the upcoming turbo charged 3er that will be priced under $40K. Granted I could hardly believe it myself at that time, but it was just too much for those that were enjoying the new car smell of their $40K 330i. :frown:
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      08-21-2007, 06:39 PM   #33
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Quote:
Originally Posted by vinazzurro View Post
I want to see some test results and reviews for the 128i before I write it off. Actually, I almost want to see them more than I want to see 135i test results and reviews (since we already pretty much know it's going to be *fast*).
I don't think we will see any 128i tests, at least not from the mainstream mags. Since it's not in Europe, none of the excellent Euro rags will test it, either.

All of the mainstream media will report on the 135.

I think we'll be left guessing on the 128, until we can drive it that is. That's the real test, anyway.
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      08-21-2007, 06:43 PM   #34
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sweeper View Post
I believe itís more about placing products competitively.

The 128i is competing against entry level cars such as:
I agree about the competition; but I don't think the 1er engine choice is dictated by that. Otherwise, why would the 3er get the same engine? I believe, as spinzero, that the 3er is dictating the engine in the 128.

BTW, the GTI has 200hp according to VW. Mine makes a little more, according to the values sampled by my ECU (~ 215hp).

I don't think the 128 will be $24k, either; my prediction is $26,900. If it's $24k I'll buy the damn thing on principle LOL.
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      08-21-2007, 07:39 PM   #35
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Originally Posted by spinzero View Post
But my point is that whatever the exact difference is, the R&D is already done, and the production cost can't possibly be the factor for choosing x28i over x30i.
I'm with you spin'. I'm hoping any changeover, which would seem inevitable, from 128i to a 130i will happen sooner. BMW have to see how transparent their strategy is. It has played out a number of times on other models.

I won't be an early adopter anyway, but if for whatever reason the 135i is out of reach for me, I'll be holding my breath for a 130i... The 128i will be a vg package, but model years 2 or 3 will make the wait worthwhile...
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      08-21-2007, 08:06 PM   #36
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I just don't see the appeal of the 128i. Flame me if you will, but my modded GTI is too much fun to ditch for the BMW moniker with no HP, no torque and no M brakes.
For those that want to have the bimmer just for the sake of having it, you can have it. I really see the role only as bait to lure more new customers at a lower price point.
This is not a small car and with the current crop of Hondas, Nissans and the like, the outlined power band is just not competitive. That used Boxster is looking better by the month......
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      08-21-2007, 08:20 PM   #37
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Quote:
Originally Posted by woj View Post
I just don't see the appeal of the 128i. Flame me if you will, but my modded GTI is too much fun to ditch for the BMW moniker with no HP, no torque and no M brakes.
For those that want to have the bimmer just for the sake of having it, you can have it. I really see the role only as bait to lure more new customers at a lower price point.
This is not a small car and with the current crop of Hondas, Nissans and the like, the outlined power band is just not competitive. That used Boxster is looking better by the month......
It's just matter of preference. But you are wrong about assuming that people looking into the 128i are all badge snobs.

I think my chipped WRX with some suspension mod is probably quite comparable to your modded GTI in terms of performance, with the added benefit of AWD but without the nice interior. Owning a Subaru should also be a pretty good indication that I'm not a badge snob. But I am still interested in the 128i for its RWD, (supposedly) great steering, 50:50 weight distribution, well focused design, and a good NA inline 6. The last one is where the 128i doesn't quite do it in my book, but everything else is still enough to keep me interested.

At the end though, like spud and ducati said, I will probably wait for the arrival of DI N53. I hope that the competition will have gotten interesting enough to make BMW give us the fully tuned version.
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      08-21-2007, 08:30 PM   #38
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Originally Posted by woj View Post
I just don't see the appeal of the 128i. Flame me if you will, but my modded GTI is too much fun to ditch for the BMW moniker with no HP, no torque and no M brakes.
For those that want to have the bimmer just for the sake of having it, you can have it. I really see the role only as bait to lure more new customers at a lower price point.
This is not a small car and with the current crop of Hondas, Nissans and the like, the outlined power band is just not competitive. That used Boxster is looking better by the month......
Personally, although I love the MKV Veedubs... I miss RWD.

The GTI (and GLI) have very flexible engines, great interiors, and even a nice dose of character.

But they're overly soft, have terminal understeer when pushed, and no LSD severly limits the power you can really put down while cornering in a (torquey!) FWD car. I like driving mine... But I don't love it. For me, the drive axle is at the core. I cut my teeth on RWD, and it's just so much more rewarding, FOR ME.

The 128 is likely to be slightly quicker than a stock GTI in a straight line, and as long as the MSport suspension is offered... In any of the curvy bits, too. But that's not where it's at, for me; it's the everyday feel, the adjustability, the playfulness of RWD. Within 20-25 minutes of driving the new 3er I was drifting it around corners, just 'cause. Enjoying the feel of separated drive and steer. Enjoying the sound of the sexy inline sixes. Can't get that in my veedub...
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      08-21-2007, 08:39 PM   #39
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Quote:
Originally Posted by woj View Post
I just don't see the appeal of the 128i. Flame me if you will, but my modded GTI is too much fun to ditch for the BMW moniker with no HP, no torque and no M brakes.
For those that want to have the bimmer just for the sake of having it, you can have it. I really see the role only as bait to lure more new customers at a lower price point.
This is not a small car and with the current crop of Hondas, Nissans and the like, the outlined power band is just not competitive. That used Boxster is looking better by the month......
I'm sorry but a 128i will blow your GTI out the water in just about EVERYTHING. All this M this and that is a bunch of crap. GTI's are fat pigs compared to Civic SI's and Coopers. I'm sure your chip makes you enjoy lots of torque steer(yanks the wheel right out of your hand). They win comparisons because its a bit maturer and has a spiffy interior.

A 3400LB 328i achieves 60 in 6.1 seconds. I expect the NO TORQUE, NO HP 128i to do it in more than likely 5.8-5.9seconds. Thats probably what your Chipped GTI is going with your mods now since stock is what? 6.7seconds. And lets not even get started on handling. Its not as athetlic as the Civic SI, so go somewhere with ragging on the 128i.

Edit: And this is coming from a person whose first car was a 2002 Jetta.
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      08-21-2007, 08:44 PM   #40
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I do miss the RWD, but have found that without a decent motor, low center of gravity and Brembos, it's all fluff. I like my GTI, but it has it's faults and that's why I am looking for something better. I don't see the 128i as the solution...the base boxster is more to my liking in terms of handling and feel.
Having your doors sucked off by every semi-sporty Nissan-Honda-US-crap is not going to do it for me. I've driven a friend's 335i and while it is nice, compared to another friend's Boxster S, it just can't keep up on the roads that I frequent.
I would prefer the wail of my old SVT Cobra's v8 to the muted BMW 6. But to me it is the weight issue and chuckability that a lighter car offers. As others have noted, the 130i offered in UK would be a nice compromise, but...
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      08-21-2007, 08:46 PM   #41
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Hehe, I dance around it a bit, an onehots2k just gets right to it: the 128i, no matter how little press or lovin' it gets as the little bro of the 135... Will still rock
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      08-21-2007, 08:54 PM   #42
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Geez, getting defensive are we? 8-)
I have no illusions about my GTI, but I feel that you do about the 128i, that's all.
I think that some of the BMW marketing stuff is betting the better of everybody...I would offer that the competition is not standing still during this time and BMW should really re-assess their starting point. 215hp/200 ft-lb is not going to make me excited in a car that weighs 34xx lbs.
Civic Si...what a joke!
Mini Cooper S? cute, but slow!
128i is entry level, with entry level performance. It pure marketing from BMW. It's not even being offered in any other market, they won't take the time to offer it with any decent parts.
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      08-21-2007, 08:55 PM   #43
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Originally Posted by ducati View Post
Hehe, I dance around it a bit, an onehots2k just gets right to it: the 128i, no matter how little press or lovin' it gets as the little bro of the 135... Will still rock
THANK YOU SIR!!! I'm sure there will be articles about the 128i. --mainly because they will try to put it down. And hopefully realize its a spectacular car.
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      08-21-2007, 09:02 PM   #44
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Quote:
Originally Posted by woj View Post
Geez, getting defensive are we? 8-)
I have no illusions about my GTI, but I feel that you do about the 128i, that's all.
I think that some of the BMW marketing stuff is betting the better of everybody...I would offer that the competition is not standing still during this time and BMW should really re-assess their starting point. 215hp/200 ft-lb is not going to make me excited in a car that weighs 34xx lbs.
Civic Si...what a joke!
Mini Cooper S? cute, but slow!
128i is entry level, with entry level performance. It pure marketing from BMW. It's not even being offered in any other market, they won't take the time to offer it with any decent parts.
I apologize to come off harsh but do you realize that prior to the 1 series coupe, BMW's entry level 3 series just 2 years ago was not a quick vehicle.(high 7's to 60 at best) A base 1 will more than likely be good for LESS than 6 which shaves off more than a full second.

1.) Its 230hp not 215
2.) A 128i will not weigh 34xx, try 3000ish
3.) Pick up Motortrend, C&D, or roadandtrack. A civic SI is more athletic than a GTI.
I'm done debating this because you have no idea what your talking about man. Your facts are wrong sorry.
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