Anyone Tracking or Autocrossing their 1-Series?

[white911]

Originally Posted by BMWeber

this may be a long post for me

In a mostly stock car or lightly tuned a bigger rear bar is great at helping understeer. it is also a great for autocrossing.
For myself and the way I like my car set up there are too many adverse effects of a large rear bar. one way I like to start this is to think about one of the great features of BMW's, INDEPENDANT rear suspension. the rear sway bar connects the rear suspension the larger your rear sway bar the less independent your rear suspension is. It makes lift throttle over steer More sever, abrupt and also lifts(takes weight off) the inside rear wheel when corning. this makes it harder to put the power down coming out of a corner. so that's my quick explanation for disliking a big rear bar.
the reason I put a big front bar in is because of the McPherson strut suspension. there is a point especially in a lowered car when you start to loos neg camber. so with a setup track suspension you want as little roll of compression in the front end. so you get a ++ with the front bar it helps the car maintain neg camber and front grip while helping the rear stick and stay planted. by the way BMW developed its own huge stiff front sway bare for E46 race cars.
http://www.turnermotorsport.com/html...T_ID=BMWMSFSBK

so as for basic tuning to make up for under steer I start with alignment(the first step with the 1er will be bigger front tires), then spring & shock tuning and sway bar is absolutely last. now this is just my feeling and the way my cars fell good to me. I also know some people in the SCCA with rear wheel drive cars that completely remove there rear sway bar. and others that have huge rear bars.

First I responded that I would absolutely track this car; but, it will only be a few low key events like instructor only days, or cold weather.

Absolutely agree with the first statement about loosing independence. I also see that people use large sway bars to make up for poor spring selection. The sway bar should only be used to tune the suspension after proper selection of the springs.

Generally the sway bar will help reduce roll and this will help reduce camber change caused by body roll; however, this could be controlled by more roll resistance by spring selection. A Mcpherson strut car will gain negative camber as the suspension is depressed. Check your camber through your full range of bump and droop.

[PrematureApex]

Originally Posted by white911

First I responded that I would absolutely track this car; but, it will only be a few low key events like instructor only days, or cold weather.

Absolutely agree with the first statement about loosing independence. I also see that people use large sway bars to make up for poor spring selection. The sway bar should only be used to tune the suspension after proper selection of the springs.

Generally the sway bar will help reduce roll and this will help reduce camber change caused by body roll; however, this could be controlled by more roll resistance by spring selection. A Mcpherson strut car will gain negative camber as the suspension is depressed. Check your camber through your full range of bump and droop.

However, for those of us not looking for the ride degradation associated with coilovers, or even a set of springs, a decent set of bars and a non-staggered setup will get us (hopefully) just enough for the handful of track days we see a year.

What kind of camber can you get away with on a street driven car? How much adjustment is built into the stock camber bolts? (for BMW's in general that is)

signed,

BMW newb...

[Oregon]

Will 'tracking' your car void the BMW warranty? I have been told exactly that.

[larryn]

Originally Posted by mikeo

Agreed! Autocrossing is the cheapest and safest motorsport and is lot of fun. It's a bitch on tires, but the rest of the car is not punished as much as in multiple 20 minute track sessions in a day.

+a zillion

For those of you in the Boston/White Mountain Chapters... be sure to check out one of the best autocrosses in the area. The Boston Chapter holds a fantastic autocross series up on the runways of Fort Devens (in Ayer,MA).

I happen to chair the events with a co-CCA member & friend of mine, and we have some really great drivers there (including a handful of national champs), lots of newbies, and a very healthy smattering of people in between, plus a great instructor program.

I want to see more 1ers there than mine!! :smile: It's cheap, fun, and if you've never done one before, you're missing out on learning exactly what your car can do!

[white911]

Originally Posted by PrematureApex

However, for those of us not looking for the ride degradation associated with coilovers, or even a set of springs, a decent set of bars and a non-staggered setup will get us (hopefully) just enough for the handful of track days we see a year.

What kind of camber can you get away with on a street driven car? How much adjustment is built into the stock camber bolts? (for BMW's in general that is)

signed,

BMW newb...

For me JRZs took care of the ride problem and the stiff springs were not a problem (on the 911). I have run -1.5 to -2.0 on the street for years with no problems. Of course if you run significant toe, you will wear out your inside edges in short order. If you are looking at track tires, Toyos want very aggressive camber -2.5 to -5.0. The new BFGs and Michelin PSCs are more tolerant of less negative camber.

[slipkmaggot]

I said probably and will probabllydo some autox also. But i wont be changing much with the car itself. For one thing i dont know what to do really ( what is camber and what is a sway bar?) and also i don plan on tracking so much that a little understeer will bother me

[mikeo]

There are a few basic books on suspension dynamics that would be a great place to start, but none of the titles come to me at the moment. Anyone want to make suggestions for slipkmaggot?

[semaj]

White911:

When you adjust camber, are you talking about front camber only or are you talking about front & rear?

Also to White and everyone else:

I'm kind of confused on how camber should be set on a RWD BMW. From what I understand, after lowering the vehicle with properly matched shocks and springs, the car gains some negative camber both front and rear. From there, is it wise to adjust more negative camber up front as apposed to the rear? Keep in mind this BMW would be set for mostly street but occasional track use.

Also, if ride height adjustabilty isn't an issue, is going for coil overs a waste of money? I don't want to slam my 135i, because, from what I understand, that retards the roll center of the vehicle, which is the last thing I would want. I also don't want mis matched shocks and springs.

[white911]

How To Make Your Car Handle - Fred Puhn
Tune to Win
Prepare to Win
Engineer to Win

[mikeo]

As a rule of thumb on E36 and E46 cars, front negative camber should be a minimum of 1 deg more than rear negative camber. This is for track. With my E36 setup and Ground Control suspension (including adjustable camber plates in front) I ran -3.5 front and -2.5 rear for track, -2.25 front and -2.5 rear on street.

[PrematureApex]

Originally Posted by white911

For me JRZs took care of the ride problem and the stiff springs were not a problem (on the 911). I have run -1.5 to -2.0 on the street for years with no problems. Of course if you run significant toe, you will wear out your inside edges in short order. If you are looking at track tires, Toyos want very aggressive camber -2.5 to -5.0. The new BFGs and Michelin PSCs are more tolerant of less negative camber.

Yeah, I run -2.0 and -1.5 on my WRX for steet/track on RA-1's (they could use at least -3).

I was more asking for BMW specific setups though.

[ersatzS2]

With Thunderbolt raceway opening here in NJ, track use is the main reason I bought the 135 (for my wife;-)) . Interesting to read the suspension comments. Tracked/raced/tunes plenty of Audis and 911s but first time w/a bmw. Figure I'll get adjustable ARBs and figure it out trial and error.

[Freno a mano]

I went to the nurburgring nordschleife with my 1 series, and this year I hope to go back. Our car with some little improvements is very funny in the track

[BForbes]

Nope. No plans to track. I have a problem doing that to a car that really wasnt meant to be. Thats not to say it wouldnt do well. When they come out with an performance version, sure. I'll track the hell out of that.

[ersatzS2]

Originally Posted by onehots2k

Nope. No plans to track. I have a problem doing that to a car that really wasnt meant to be. Thats not to say it wouldnt do well. When they come out with an performance version, sure. I'll track the hell out of that.

Actually I agree with that philosophy especially as regards safety equipment. I wouldn't be considering it except for the unique situation of having a new track opening nearby. Trackdays, especially as an instructor, will be the best way to log some mileage on the course prior to racing on it. But without a HANS device and with the wife's new car it won't be anywhere near 10/10ths!

Out of curiosity: if you aren't going to track it, explain you plea for a high performance 1 in your sig? How much more performance do you want for public roads??

[BForbes]

Originally Posted by ersatzS2

Actually I agree with that philosophy especially as regards safety equipment. I wouldn't be considering it except for the unique situation of having a new track opening nearby. Trackdays, especially as an instructor, will be the best way to log some mileage on the course prior to racing on it. But without a HANS device and with the wife's new car it won't be anywhere near 10/10ths!

Out of curiosity: if you aren't going to track it, explain you plea for a high performance 1 in your sig? How much more performance do you want for public roads??

By high performance I mean an LSD, Lighter weight and a little power bump. And ofcourse nicely done aesthetic touches. :wink:

[axoid]

I won’t be getting a 135 until next year, but when I do it may see a little autocross and probably no tracking. I have a dedicated car for that and I don’t need to build another monster.

[mikeo]

Welcome to 1Addicts, Bill! Glad to see another autocrosser come aboard.

[PrematureApex]

Originally Posted by Freno a mano

I went to the nurburgring nordschleife with my 1 series, and this year I hope to go back. Our car with some little improvements is very funny in the track

What kind of rubber are you guys squeezing up front?

245's out of the question?

[mikeo]

That is one of the big pre-delivery questions since no one in the US has a car yet to do a little trail-and-error with. Many of us are wanting to go 18x8.5 w/245x35 all around. I'm guessing it is possible in the front with the right wheel offset or spacers. But until we have the cars it is just a guess.

[PrematureApex]

Originally Posted by mikeo

That is one of the big pre-delivery questions since no one in the US has a car yet to do a little trail-and-error with. Many of us are wanting to go 18x8.5 w/245x35 all around. I'm guessing it is possible in the front with the right wheel offset or spacers. But until we have the cars it is just a guess.

I'm hoping the Europeans have a little more in site into it. How much different could the front fenders be between the coupe and what they have now?

[mikeo]

Probably not much, if any difference. The 135 has the larger Brembo 6-pot brakes though.