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      02-25-2008, 01:56 PM   #1
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Max front neg camber?

Has anyone actually checked to see how much front negative camber can be dialed in on the 135i in stock form?

I realize that more camber can be achieved by other methods (bolt ons), however those aren't legal in SCCA stock class autocross.

I am hoping for more than was possible on the 330ci, so that it doesn't eat Hoosiers shoulders to the cords in two events! (probably too much to hope for...)

Thanks and enjoy!
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      02-25-2008, 05:22 PM   #2
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I share your concern, FTD. My understanding is there is a centering pin at the top of the strut assembly, same as E9x cars, that can be removed to gain a tad more negative camber. What total camber can be attained will have to wait until after we start getting our cars.
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      02-25-2008, 06:22 PM   #3
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is negativs camber / \ or \ / assuming you are looking at the front of the car
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      02-25-2008, 06:37 PM   #4
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Negative camber looks like this: /---\

Positve camber would be something you'd see on an old Bugatti and it looks liKe this: \---/
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      02-25-2008, 06:41 PM   #5
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This wiki entry is pretty good and has a pretty amusing photo of EXTREME negative camber.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Camber_angle
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      02-25-2008, 07:04 PM   #6
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Quote:
Originally Posted by atr_hugo View Post
This wiki entry is pretty good and has a pretty amusing photo of EXTREME negative camber.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Camber_angle
LL it looks like a 500 pound guy sat in the car
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      02-25-2008, 08:12 PM   #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FTD View Post
Has anyone actually checked to see how much front negative camber can be dialed in on the 135i in stock form?

I realize that more camber can be achieved by other methods (bolt ons), however those aren't legal in SCCA stock class autocross.

I am hoping for more than was possible on the 330ci, so that it doesn't eat Hoosiers shoulders to the cords in two events! (probably too much to hope for...)

Thanks and enjoy!
probably to much to ask the front of BMW's usually have very little adjustment stock
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      02-26-2008, 01:08 PM   #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mikeo View Post
I share your concern, FTD. My understanding is there is a centering pin at the top of the strut assembly, same as E9x cars, that can be removed to gain a tad more negative camber. What total camber can be attained will have to wait until after we start getting our cars.
Hey Mikeo,
When do you expect to have yours? Soon I hope!

Hopefully the centering pin removal is listed in the service manual as being removable for alignment purposes. Similar to the "crash bolt" allowances on other makes.

There would certainly need to be some official BMW documentation allowing the removal of the pin. Again, otherwise it wouldn't be legal in SCCA stock class competition.

Do you know if there was such an allowance made for the E9x cars? I apologize for my lack of BMW knowledge.

Take care and thanks for the responses!
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      02-26-2008, 05:36 PM   #9
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I should get my car on or about the official release date.

IMO, since it is a factory method of adjusting camber it is stock class legal.
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      03-17-2008, 04:42 PM   #10
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camber: neg vs pos?

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Originally Posted by slipkmaggot View Post
is negative camber / \ or \ / assuming you are looking at the front of the car

E36M3 with -4 negative camber up front (and -2.5 in back)


Same E36M3 as above but under max cornering load (1.2g lateral, measured)


E36M3 with stock alignment settings under full cornering loads (positive camber)
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      03-17-2008, 04:49 PM   #11
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Great pics, Terry! What lb/in linear springs on your AST setup?
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      03-17-2008, 05:02 PM   #12
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Great pics, Terry! What lb/in linear springs on your AST setup?
We don't have a generic AST set-up and always ask about the intended use before we recommend spring lengths and rates...

The E36M3 shown above was set-up as a dual purpose daily driver/STU classed autocross car with 600#/in front and 750#/in rear springs on AST4200 shocks (double adjustable monotubes) then later AST4300 shocks (triples with remotes). Those rates may sound pretty stiff for a street car, but you can get away with more rate with the right shocks; my wife drove the car every day (and still does) for 2 years like this - and she won 2 National Championships with it, too. Who says you can't have a competitive, dedicated autocross car that's still daily driven? :iono:



We have several AST shock set-ups testing currently on E90 and E92 competition/dual use test cars, including a 335i that's entered in One Lap Of America with AST4200s. We've been gearing up for the E85/135 launch for some time because we think this car, like most BMWs, will benefit greatly from good shocks, stiffer spring rates and added negative camber. We'll be ready.
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      03-23-2008, 02:07 PM   #13
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I'm also very interested in knowing the answer to the question and if the removal of the centering pin will be legal in stock class.

FTD. You have me worried.
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      05-02-2008, 12:40 PM   #14
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Bump.

Does anyone have any initial numbers for us? Mikeo I know has run his car in an event, but I didn't see the alignment numbers.

Has anyone aligned their car for max front camber within the stock adjustments? If so what numbers did it yield?

Thanks!
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      05-02-2008, 11:38 PM   #15
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Removing the pin will get you a total of 0.5 degrees of camber adjustment. That's it.
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      05-04-2008, 10:18 AM   #16
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KW did 2 days of testing. Stock max was -.3 with the v1 (non-adjustable dampers w/ springs and adjustable ride height at 1.2" front drop and 1" rear drop) was -0.6..this was with the pins pulled and = side to side
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      05-04-2008, 08:34 PM   #17
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With stock springs and alignment pins removed I got -0.6 each side front. And after my 3rd and 4th auto-x events this weekend I can say I need more! Too bad I'm runining D-Stock Street Tire this seaon.
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      05-05-2008, 09:34 AM   #18
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With stock springs and alignment pins removed I got -0.6 each side front. And after my 3rd and 4th auto-x events this weekend I can say I need more! Too bad I'm runining D-Stock Street Tire this seaon.
Yes, all of that -.6° of static camber in the front of any McStrut equipped BMW (that would be all BMWs worth racing) is going to be lost when cornering on even street tires, much less R compounds. Oh the joys of Stock class racing... :wink:

For Street Prepared and Street Touring I'm going to go ahead and guesstimate that -3.5° to -4° front camber will be the goal (because that range works on so many other, similar BMWs). That means camber plates are in order, and this is usually the single most helpful upgrade on any BMW that is autocrossed, road raced or tracked.
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      05-06-2008, 08:22 PM   #19
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Negative Camber Adjustments

I heard that this is an easy DIY... remove pin, loosen bolts, push top of wheel in and retighten? Is there a risk to me doing this vs. my dealer? Given the fact that I will only get about 0.5 of a (neg) improvement, I assume I can't screw it up too much but thought I would throw it out there. I will look into plates and suspension soon but thought that in the meantime this might help a bit with auto-x.
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      05-07-2008, 11:25 AM   #20
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I heard that this is an easy DIY... remove pin, loosen bolts, push top of wheel in and retighten? Is there a risk to me doing this vs. my dealer? Given the fact that I will only get about 0.5 of a (neg) improvement, I assume I can't screw it up too much but thought I would throw it out there. I will look into plates and suspension soon but thought that in the meantime this might help a bit with auto-x.
Very little risk, go ahead and try it. It will affect the toe slightly, but for a .5° change it should be minimal, even negligible. Whenever we align a car from max-to-min camber using our camber plates (which can have a 2-3° range of camber movement, depending on chassis model and spring diameter/room) we tend to see about 3/8" of total toe change... so a .5° change should only just tweak the toe (out). Adjusting toe is quite easy once you've figured out the tricks.

Some alignment shops will check and adjust just the front toe for a lot less $ than a 4 wheel alignment costs; I've seen it advertised for as low as $20. No reason to go to the stealership for an alignment, of course. Ask your local BMWCCA club which shop or shops they recommend for a performance alignment. They tend to listen to racer's crazy alignment specs and requests a lot better than most dealership techs.

It couldn't hurt to have the rear camber and toe checked, and even a bit of toe in added out back - even on a stock suspension it helps. We run as much as .25" total toe in out back on an aggressive Solo or track set-up, to help turn in and power application on corner exit. Pure street cars should have virtually zero toe, front and rear.


($57 from Bimmerworld; click picture for link)

Also, you can buy "toe plates" to measure your toe quickly and easily for about 60 bucks. Longacre. Everyone doing track or autocross events should own a set of these plates if you have adjustable camber plates, just to spot check your set-up periodically and/or to optimize your toe track side if you make a significant camber change.

Cheers,
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      05-07-2008, 08:25 PM   #21
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the problem is the total range is about -.4 degrees and the pin is "right in the middle" so you will get very little change.....in camber or toe.(and since the car is front steer and the factory setting is toed in...you will just get closer to zero toe.....
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