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      02-04-2016, 12:02 AM   #1
hokejka
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Stock Diff < Helical Diff < OS Giken LSD

I have gone through a lot of reviews but only 1 or 2 on the OS Giken. For anyone that has one can you add some feedback. Anyone felt the difference between helical and clutch?

My old built e30 was clutch packs and I want to make this car feel as close as I can to that. I am a little worried that a helical LSD will not behave the same. Most reviews are positive but I have read a couple of people being disappointed, especially for drivers that know what a clutch style LSD should feel like.

Any feedback from OSG or helical owners is appreciated. Thanks guys.

I would jump at the OSG but the price has me questioning if the helical can take its place at 2/3 the cost.
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      02-04-2016, 08:29 AM   #2
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Just curious - where are you getting your prices from? When I was shopping diffs, there wasn't that big of a difference between Quaife and OS Giken.

A lot of people will tell you that for the street, the helical makes more sense. That it's "maintenance free." Well, I don't think a clutch-type diff is too much hassle - annual gear oil changes, and then a rebuild maybe every 5 years? Most people don't even keep their cars that long anymore, lol. I've never driven a helical, but just from reading about them, I don't really see the point. They seem like a compromise in every way - no static lock, no lock on decel, goes open if one wheel is unloaded, etc. What's the point of spending all that money for a half-ass diff? I don't really get it.

My clutch-type diff is perfectly streetable, no noise, works all the time, and was cheaper than a Quaife. Win-win-win. Only downside is that it will eventually require a rebuild, but so what? So do my dampers. Normal maintenance and cost of doing business, IMO.
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      02-04-2016, 12:55 PM   #3
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The only reason the helical makes more sense is the price point for the m factory one. I think they make a clutch type one as well for about the same price. I can really only compare a few muscle cars and my m roadster's clutch differential to the helical I have now, but the helical diff works and it works well on power. It won't have the benefits of the OS Giken like Bob said, but it's 2x more than what I paid for mine.
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      02-04-2016, 01:18 PM   #4
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I couldn't agree with you more I feel like helical manufactures blow these things out of proportion to make their differentials sound fantastic on all levels. i've heard of clutch style differentials lasting over 200,000 miles with over 100,000 miles of hard drivin i've heard of clutch style differentials lasting over 200,000 miles with no rebuild and still capable of locking.

to be honest I was hoping someone would say the opposite of what you said and convince me a helical will work just as well as I've seen that argued so many times but I don't think that's the reality.

im quoting a 3300 vac motoraports OSG rebuild vs a 2300 mfactory

both quotes for welded manual 135i.

what diff are you running?
any other reputable options?
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      02-04-2016, 01:21 PM   #5
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are you guys bolted and popping them in yourselves? even the cheapes diff on a welded manual large pumpkin is a minimum of $2k. at that price point i might as well go for the osg at $1300 more?
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      02-04-2016, 01:46 PM   #6
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hokejka View Post
im quoting a 3300 vac motoraports OSG rebuild vs a 2300 mfactory

both quotes for welded manual 135i.

what diff are you running?
any other reputable options?
I'm running a Performance Gearing diff: 3.73 final drive, 4 clutch plates, 40% static lock, 30/60 ramps, and a finned cover set me back $2450.

I just looked at DiffsOnline, and I had no idea it was so much more expensive for you 135i guys! OS Giken (fully-built pumpkin) for $3999! Their Quaife is only $2699. For the 128i, the OS Giken is $2899 versus $2699 for the Quaife.

Maybe contact Jim Blanton at Performance Gearing for a quote.
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      02-04-2016, 02:22 PM   #7
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Ill take a look. Yes this welded diff rebuild is a serious investment
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      02-04-2016, 02:51 PM   #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hokejka View Post
I couldn't agree with you more I feel like helical manufactures blow these things out of proportion to make their differentials sound fantastic on all levels. i've heard of clutch style differentials lasting over 200,000 miles with over 100,000 miles of hard drivin i've heard of clutch style differentials lasting over 200,000 miles with no rebuild and still capable of locking.

to be honest I was hoping someone would say the opposite of what you said and convince me a helical will work just as well as I've seen that argued so many times but I don't think that's the reality.

im quoting a 3300 vac motoraports OSG rebuild vs a 2300 mfactory

both quotes for welded manual 135i.

what diff are you running?
any other reputable options?
I've also heard of people killing a differential every season of tracking, helical works under acceleration which is all that I require

I found a never installed full pumpkin unit that someone was selling because they were selling their car as well. I paid less than 1000 i believe for a full pumpkin (mfactory).

It should be $1759.96 + $500 refundable core for the m factory unit. That's an entire pumpkin shipped to you then you ship the old pumpkin back. The OSGiken is 3,324.00 + a 1,500 dollar core charge from Turner for the same deal, a clutch diff is nice but not for nearly 2x the price.
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      02-04-2016, 06:09 PM   #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lowbudgethero View Post
I've also heard of people killing a differential every season of tracking, helical works under acceleration which is all that I require

I found a never installed full pumpkin unit that someone was selling because they were selling their car as well. I paid less than 1000 i believe for a full pumpkin (mfactory).

It should be $1759.96 + $500 refundable core for the m factory unit. That's an entire pumpkin shipped to you then you ship the old pumpkin back. The OSGiken is 3,324.00 + a 1,500 dollar core charge from Turner for the same deal, a clutch diff is nice but not for nearly 2x the price.
Mfactory quoted me 2200 for exactly what you said. I guess prices have gone up?I also have low miles so I wouldn't be excited to have an LSD rebuilt into potentially a 100k mile core when my 25k mile core goes to someone else.

I have been doing some research and it seems some people complain of OSG drivability. Lot of clunking at low speeds and some noise. I don't mind a bit but I do want the car relatively tame. I don;t understand why this is so, a lot of old BMWs came standard with LSDs and were a non-issue(less % lock but still LSD, 70% is pretty good for a treat car). M cars come standard with LSDs and are very tame and drivable.

OSG from VAC is 3300 +900 refundable core. If mfactory was 1800 or they had a special like they did on black friday then its a strong consideration. Almost half the cost.

Anyone running an OSG??
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      02-05-2016, 01:40 PM   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hokejka View Post
I couldn't agree with you more I feel like helical manufactures blow these things out of proportion to make their differentials sound fantastic on all levels.
Well, considering we offer both Helical and Plate, for the same price, there goes that statement lol

The reason why those who are running oem diffs (even your rebuilt 4 plate jobbies are just rebuilt oem diffs) aren't experiencing the "side effects" of running a plate LSD is precisely for that reason; they are running an oem-based diff with bugger all lock capacity.

The oem Plate LSD was designed as a compromise to prevent M3 drivers who think they are race car drivers from wrapping themselves around a tree; nothing to do with performance.

If you can call a Helical LSD a half-assed attempt at an LSD (which it is not, because technically, it is not even an LSD; it is a Torque Biasing Differential), then what do you call a rebuilt oem diff with 4 plates running only 25%-40% lock capacity?

All aftermarket Plate LSD's on the market offer upto 100% lock capacity, and have minimum 10 plates on each side (total 20 plates). If you are serious about racing, you purchase a "real" Plate LSD.

If you don't race, then buy a Torque Biasing Differential (aka Helical LSD) as they are quiet, maintenance free, and drive a hell of a lot smoother than a "real" Plate LSD, not to mention cheaper (in general)
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      02-05-2016, 04:02 PM   #11
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I purchased mine from M Factory just over a year ago. If I remember right it was $2k, plus the core return. Then $400 for the local performance BMW shop for the install. I wasn't able to track the car last year, but did some pretty hard corners on the street to test it out after break in. It's a big difference over the E-diff that comes stock. If you're an aggressive street driver with light to moderate track use you can't go wrong the Helical design from M Factory. Hopefully this year I can get my 135i out to a few track events.
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      02-05-2016, 08:09 PM   #12
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I agree with what you said factory. Not sure If you were referring to me but I never said a helical was a "half-ass." I am not sure if it is best for me specifically. I am trying to learn more to make the final call.

lol at m-owners but I don't understand your 25-40% statement. I know older bmws have a range of locking percentage and its my understanding that m cars are near the 70% mark. These are huge differences in performance. That begin said I don't know exactly how many plates they have and I can imagine a 10+ plate lsd with 100% locking capability behaves better than those offered but where is the middle line. What LSD is best for someone that does want to go WOT sideways sometimes but also DDs the car and does;t exactly need a 100% lock accel and 60% lock decel spec. What about a 70% lock accel and a 30% lock decel. <10 plate.

It just seems as though a helical is the only option besides getting a robust very expensive race bred LSD.

Ive been reading a lot more on helicals and they do seem attractive but it seems the negatives of clutch style are exaggerated. I don't see why a clutch/plate style LSD wouldn't last 100k miles doing regular oil changes and a couple track days a year. If I am completely wrong someone please correct me.
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      02-05-2016, 08:11 PM   #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MFactory View Post
Well, considering we offer both Helical and Plate, for the same price, there goes that statement lol

The reason why those who are running oem diffs (even your rebuilt 4 plate jobbies are just rebuilt oem diffs) aren't experiencing the "side effects" of running a plate LSD is precisely for that reason; they are running an oem-based diff with bugger all lock capacity.

The oem Plate LSD was designed as a compromise to prevent M3 drivers who think they are race car drivers from wrapping themselves around a tree; nothing to do with performance.

If you can call a Helical LSD a half-assed attempt at an LSD (which it is not, because technically, it is not even an LSD; it is a Torque Biasing Differential), then what do you call a rebuilt oem diff with 4 plates running only 25%-40% lock capacity?

All aftermarket Plate LSD's on the market offer upto 100% lock capacity, and have minimum 10 plates on each side (total 20 plates). If you are serious about racing, you purchase a "real" Plate LSD.

If you don't race, then buy a Torque Biasing Differential (aka Helical LSD) as they are quiet, maintenance free, and drive a hell of a lot smoother than a "real" Plate LSD, not to mention cheaper (in general)
Quote:
Originally Posted by jafo1701 View Post
I purchased mine from M Factory just over a year ago. If I remember right it was $2k, plus the core return. Then $400 for the local performance BMW shop for the install. I wasn't able to track the car last year, but did some pretty hard corners on the street to test it out after break in. It's a big difference over the E-diff that comes stock. If you're an aggressive street driver with light to moderate track use you can't go wrong the Helical design from M Factory. Hopefully this year I can get my 135i out to a few track events.
Also I see you offer the plate type but non available for the welded core yet. Also seems that 99% of your n54 customers are going helical so rare to find reviews on your plate type LSDs on these cars
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      02-05-2016, 08:42 PM   #14
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Also when traction control is completely off both wheels spin? Can anyone explain this. I learned the e-diff 'braking' interfered when dtc is off to create the "e-lsd" effect but its completely off when everything is off. Yet both wheels spin. And I can tell throttle is not begin cut by anything. I'm sure the wheels aren't spinning evenly but they must be spinning an fighting traction had enough because they both leave black lines on the asphalt. In a pure straight line scenario how could any type of LSD 'help' this situation. Where is traction to be gained if both wheels are already fighting for it. This also kinda blows away the 1 wheel spinning theory
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      02-05-2016, 10:42 PM   #15
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quote from OSG website

"Due to the precision manufacturing, high-grade materials, and unique design, a break-in period nor rebuild is required for OS Giken LSD’s. OS LSD is purposefully over-engineered to offer the best performing, most durable clutch-type LSD available."
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      02-06-2016, 04:04 AM   #16
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hokejka View Post
Also when traction control is completely off both wheels spin? Can anyone explain this. I learned the e-diff 'braking' interfered when dtc is off to create the "e-lsd" effect but its completely off when everything is off. Yet both wheels spin. And I can tell throttle is not begin cut by anything. I'm sure the wheels aren't spinning evenly but they must be spinning an fighting traction had enough because they both leave black lines on the asphalt. In a pure straight line scenario how could any type of LSD 'help' this situation. Where is traction to be gained if both wheels are already fighting for it. This also kinda blows away the 1 wheel spinning theory
The e-diff cannot be disabled, even when the rest of the TC suite is deactivated.

With an LSD, you can lose traction suddenly in the rear when both tires break loose, but the car is generally quite controllable (e.g., throttle oversteer).
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      02-06-2016, 04:08 AM   #17
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hokejka View Post
Also I see you offer the plate type but non available for the welded core yet. Also seems that 99% of your n54 customers are going helical so rare to find reviews on your plate type LSDs on these cars
The 215 Plate Diffs are under development/testing just now, and should be available shortly.
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      02-06-2016, 11:34 AM   #18
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hokejka View Post
Also when traction control is completely off both wheels spin? Can anyone explain this. I learned the e-diff 'braking' interfered when dtc is off to create the "e-lsd" effect but its completely off when everything is off. Yet both wheels spin. And I can tell throttle is not begin cut by anything. I'm sure the wheels aren't spinning evenly but they must be spinning an fighting traction had enough because they both leave black lines on the asphalt. In a pure straight line scenario how could any type of LSD 'help' this situation. Where is traction to be gained if both wheels are already fighting for it. This also kinda blows away the 1 wheel spinning theory
ELSD is not inherently diverting torque from the wheel that's slipping to the gripping wheel, it's braking 1 wheel to get some torque to the other. While it's immensly better than a regular open differential, it's still not as reactive. The first thing I noticed when i got an LSD was no more violent wheelhopping on acceleration and improved traction.
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      02-07-2016, 08:15 PM   #19
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Look, I get that you sell helical diffs and want to defend your product, and I'll even admit that for most users a helical is "good enough." But there is plenty wrong with what you said.

Quote:
Originally Posted by MFactory View Post
The reason why those who are running oem diffs (even your rebuilt 4 plate jobbies are just rebuilt oem diffs) aren't experiencing the "side effects" of running a plate LSD is precisely for that reason; they are running an oem-based diff with bugger all lock capacity.
I assume you're talking about me, since I'm the only one I think who mentioned owning a 4-plate Salisbury diff. "Bugger all lock capacity?" My diff locks statically at 40% (which is 40% more than a helical, by the way) all the way up to and including 100% dynamic lock. Seems pretty good to me.

Quote:
Originally Posted by MFactory View Post
The oem Plate LSD was designed as a compromise to prevent M3 drivers who think they are race car drivers from wrapping themselves around a tree; nothing to do with performance.
What does this even mean? Are you suggesting that BMW designed their LSD as a safety device? Never mind that the M3 doesn't even have a traditional clutch-type LSD, but a variable differential lock, and so is not relevant to a discussion on the merits of TBD's versus LSD's.

Quote:
Originally Posted by MFactory View Post
If you can call a Helical LSD a half-assed attempt at an LSD (which it is not, because technically, it is not even an LSD; it is a Torque Biasing Differential), then what do you call a rebuilt oem diff with 4 plates running only 25%-40% lock capacity?
I find it funny that you're going all smarty-pants about the semantic point that a helical diff is not an LSD, when MFactory specifically markets the product as "Helical LSD™." In any case, I'm well aware that they are technically TBD's, but the common usage on this forum, and even among many manufacturers (your boss included) is in fact helical LSD. I've noticed on Porsche forums, they tend to use TBD.

I stand by my statement that TBD's are a half-assed diff. They literally do not do a single thing better than a real LSD, and they have several disadvantages. Their main claim to fame seems to be reduced maintenance requirements, which is great and all, but is certainly not a performance advantage.

Besides that, you seem to be willfully ignoring the difference between static and dynamic lock offered by an LSD. They don't have "only 25%-40% lock capacity," you're talking about static lock, which is compared to the TBD's 0%. Dynamic lock is another matter altogether.

Quote:
Originally Posted by MFactory View Post
All aftermarket Plate LSD's on the market offer upto 100% lock capacity, and have minimum 10 plates on each side (total 20 plates). If you are serious about racing, you purchase a "real" Plate LSD
Okay, so this is a false dichotomy: the choice is either a TBD, or a full-bore race LSD. That's ridiculous. In fact, MFactory even sells clutch-plate LSD's with 12 plates (which, if you didn't notice, is fewer than your arbitrary 20-plate "minimum"). Not only that, but there are very well-regarded US differential manufacturers (such as Performance Gearing, DiffsOnline, Guard Transmission, etc.) making 3, 4, 6, & 8-plate LSD's being used in BMW's & Porsches by real motorsports teams. I'm sure you know this, but cramming 20 plates into an LSD is only one philosophical approach in LSD design, mainly favored by Japanese manufacturers (like OS Giken, Cusco, and Kaaz). Given that MFactory uses "imported Japanese steel" in the manufacturer of their LSD's, I'm inclined that they probably adhere to the Japanese design standard.

Quote:
Originally Posted by MFactory View Post
If you don't race, then buy a Torque Biasing Differential (aka Helical LSD) as they are quiet, maintenance free, and drive a hell of a lot smoother than a "real" Plate LSD, not to mention cheaper (in general)
My LSD is whisper-quiet and in no way degrades daily driving. And it was cheaper than a Quaife. So I'll need to do annual gear oil changes, but at less than $100 for parts and labor, I'm not too worried about it. The rebuild will be much more involved, but I reckon it's at least 5 years away.

In short, I can understand a lot of people opting for a TBD because of the "set it and forget it" appeal, especially on a car that is only street-driven. But I think positioning it as a "better" product somehow is marketing mumbo-jumbo, and I think the characterization of LSD's as too labor-intensive and "unstreetable" is played up by sellers of TBD's.
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      02-08-2016, 12:12 AM   #20
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Sorry, it's new years day, so can't be bothered arguing (sorry, "educating") on a public forum. But just so you know, I don't have any particular bias towards either type as we manufacture and sell both types, and recommend them based on the customers circumstances. You are calling something half-assed that you don't really understand too much about (or maybe you do? But your comments certainly say otherwise). Each type has their own merits and there is no "Best", as best is subjective.

Please, in your own words, describe what static lock and dynamic lock exactly is, and what they do. I want your understanding of it, not the marketing talk from a company who sells ”limited slip final drives“

Also, please explain in your own words why a Helical LSD is half-assed, bearing in mind there are several designs available, with their own specific features

Big words are often used in marketing to confuse customers, and what customers think is one thing, is often just the same as something else in reality.

BTW, a lot of diff builders use marketing terminology that is far from engineering fact, even some manufacturers. Why? Because they are race drivers and/or mechanics; they are not engineers. Customers will tend to listen to these "industry experts" though, to the dismay of real engineers

It's the age old dispute. Who to listen to? The engineer who designs the part, or the mechanic who installs the part?
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      02-08-2016, 11:15 AM   #21
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Quote:
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Look, I get that you sell helical diffs and want to defend your product, and I'll even admit that for most users a helical is "good enough." But there is plenty wrong with what you said.



I assume you're talking about me, since I'm the only one I think who mentioned owning a 4-plate Salisbury diff. "Bugger all lock capacity?" My diff locks statically at 40% (which is 40% more than a helical, by the way) all the way up to and including 100% dynamic lock. Seems pretty good to me.

Torsen/helical limited slip differentials don't need static lock, they react literally instantly from 0 to their maximum lock. Clutch differentials need a static lock, because they have a lag time. Static lock isn't really a desirable trait when you don't need it so you're wearing down your clutch pack every time you take a slight turn. There are, however, many times where a static lock is desired or the ability to adjust lock is desired. Notably racing and off road driving.

Have you even driven a car with a torsen style LSD?
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      02-08-2016, 11:20 AM   #22
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Helical LSD's don't lock; their function is to constantly bias torque between the left/right wheels upto a pre-determined amount (varies between manufacturers). If a Helical LSD locked, then it would be like a welded diff/spool.

Waiting for Bimmer-Bob to educate me on Static-Lock/Dynamic-Lock before I reply to that aspect
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