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      10-30-2008, 09:53 AM   #45
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mikeo View Post
That has been debated here, but no one seems to know if the materials used are the same or not.

Unless piston cracking is proven to happen with stock pads after track use (don't know why anyone serious about tracking would do that) BMW may claim the non-OE pads caused the failure and opt to not cover/recall.
precisely.
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      10-30-2008, 10:07 AM   #46
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Quote:
Originally Posted by scottn2retro View Post
We took it to the dealer, who showed the regional rep. Because the car is a race car, they basically washed their hands of it.

We are trying to contact Brembo to see what they think of it, but I would imagine that they just built the kits to what BMW specified.
That kind of irresponsible response from BMW to such a serious issue takes the wind out of one's sails. Race car aside, what about all the folks who take their cars to driver schools or track day events even a few times a year? Several 45-min sessions on a hot day can cook stock brakes fast...especially if the driver is a novice and overuses them to begin with.
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      10-30-2008, 10:21 AM   #47
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bluemoon View Post
That kind of irresponsible response from BMW to such a serious issue takes the wind out of one's sails. Race car aside, what about all the folks who take their cars to driver schools or track day events even a few times a year? Several 45-min sessions on a hot day can cook stock brakes fast...especially if the driver is a novice and overuses them to begin with.
That's what we're thinking. Sure, our car has some modifications, but no more than what a track school instructor or A or B group students may have.

We have raced plenty of stock class BMWs in the past with OEM calipers with racing pads and have never seen this before.
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      10-30-2008, 10:31 AM   #48
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Track or not....a Brembo caliper or even a bmw caliper should not have that low of design tolerances. Brakes should be the one thing over engineered and robust. Not an area for cost cutting.

However, I do feel more tests are needed to fully understand.

1. We need those with street cars to advise what their caliper pistons look like and at what mileage.
2. We need those with a stock car and stock pads who have tracked their car to advise what their pistons look like and mileage?
3. Also, we need Vin id and build dates of affected cars so as to determine if this issue is widespread or isolated.

These facts will help to start building our case.

Thanks.
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      10-30-2008, 10:49 AM   #49
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mikeo View Post
I'm wondering if the BMW Performance brakes would do the same thing.
I sent an e-mail to Dan Cordes at BMW NA (he either is or at one time was the Performance Parts line manager) to try to see if there is any difference in the components of the calipers.
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      10-30-2008, 10:59 AM   #50
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Quote:
Originally Posted by scottn2retro View Post
I sent an e-mail to Dan Cordes at BMW NA (he either is or at one time was the Performance Parts line manager) to try to see if there is any difference in the components of the calipers.
Good idea Scott. I also think you might press the issue with your dealer, not from a warranty standpoint, but as a safety issue. Even request a BMWNA field technician take a look at the caliper.
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      10-30-2008, 11:10 AM   #51
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      10-30-2008, 11:13 AM   #52
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My concern is that if this a metallurgical flaw in the brake piston design/casting it will eventually show in street-use only vehicles. Just a matter of time.

Where's our handy dandy BMWNA id-person to grab this one and run with it? ; -)
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      10-30-2008, 11:21 AM   #53
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mikeo View Post
Good idea Scott. I also think you might press the issue with your dealer, not from a warranty standpoint, but as a safety issue. Even request a BMWNA field technician take a look at the caliper.
That's part of the problem - a regional field rep did see the problem and basically dismissed it because we race.

But getting them to replace them with the same parts is going to solve the problem for us anyway.

Sure, they are getting hot, but the funny thing is, we're not warping any rotors. So are they really getting that hot?
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      10-30-2008, 11:22 AM   #54
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Quote:
Originally Posted by scottn2retro View Post
That's what we're thinking. Sure, our car has some modifications, but no more than what a track school instructor or A or B group students may have.

We have raced plenty of stock class BMWs in the past with OEM calipers with racing pads and have never seen this before.
Agreed, I haven't either. btw, the fronts do most of the work but what about the condition of the rear caliper pistons and seals?
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      10-30-2008, 11:36 AM   #55
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bluemoon View Post
Agreed, I haven't either. btw, the fronts do most of the work but what about the condition of the rear caliper pistons and seals?
We haven't noticed any problem on the rears, but we'll pull the calipers or look really good in there with a flashlight at the next event in less than 2 weeks (when changing pads on the rears, they slide out the top)
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      10-30-2008, 11:38 AM   #56
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Quote:
Originally Posted by andrew@southernBM View Post
I hope to have some more information on this tomorrow when i hear back from BMW.
Andrew, is the car still there and can you take a peek at the rears?
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      10-30-2008, 12:16 PM   #57
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Quote:
Originally Posted by scottn2retro View Post
.....Sure, they are getting hot, but the funny thing is, we're not warping any rotors. So are they really getting that hot?
That's an excellent point about the rotors. Warped rotors are not unusual. But you would expect them to warp long before heat would crack caliber pistons!
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      10-30-2008, 12:26 PM   #58
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Guys,

Earlier this morning I've already e-mailed this to BMW NA's Accessory Manager and it's been assured to me already that the information has been passed into the correct hands. If I hear any updates, I will inform everyone
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      10-30-2008, 12:35 PM   #59
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Thanks Dan, you are one stand up guy. Most dealer will shy away to participate into this kind of discussion. I am concern but not too much worry. Thanks.
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      10-30-2008, 12:44 PM   #60
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Gotta check.......

Not good news.....
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      10-30-2008, 12:45 PM   #61
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If a BMW recall isn't in the stars, I think a set of custom titanium backing plates might help insulate the pistons from some of the heat.
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      10-30-2008, 12:53 PM   #62
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Berktech......if one is to go as far as producing titanium backing plates, wouldn't the better solution be alternative caliper pistons from the aftermarket?

Say for example a vendor offered a trade-in program. Send them your calipers and they will send you remanufactured ones with new aftermarket pistons installed?

Although, I admit this suggestion is a bit premature since we have not yet isolated if this is a problem facing all 135s or only a small run due to poor production processes with a batch of brembo calipers.
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      10-30-2008, 01:00 PM   #63
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Quote:
Originally Posted by atr_hugo View Post
Where's our handy dandy BMWNA id-person to grab this one and run with it? ; -)
There are CCA ombudsmen I think, maybe they could help with this?


The more I think about it, the more $$$ I may need to sink in the 135i to make it a viable, reliable, long term, trackable package. Perhaps an M3 is better for the long run? :iono:
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      10-30-2008, 02:47 PM   #64
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I don't think it's an isolated issue. I think it'll happen every single time in the right conditions. I think it's the track pads causing a lot more heat and sustaining that heat is probably causing the damage. Something that BMW did not anticipate I guess. The AutoX guys should be ok as I don't think the short runs will build enough heat to cause damage.

We've run about 6 track days on our OEM brembo caliper. All 6 days were run on the same OEM pad. The brakes were worked pretty hard and for a long period of time, enough to get smoke billowing out the wheels heavily. By the time we took off the OEM caliper and swapped to the Brembo BBK, the pads were falling apart. However, the caliper looked fine. This same OEM caliper was loaned to Scott which apparrently didn't even last 1 event. The logical variable here is the brake pads.

I'm pretty sure Scott will figure out a solution quickly. They have no choice, they can't upgrade.
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      10-30-2008, 04:52 PM   #65
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Evolution Racewerks View Post
I don't think it's an isolated issue. I think it'll happen every single time in the right conditions. I think it's the track pads causing a lot more heat and sustaining that heat is probably causing the damage. Something that BMW did not anticipate I guess. The AutoX guys should be ok as I don't think the short runs will build enough heat to cause damage.

We've run about 6 track days on our OEM brembo caliper. All 6 days were run on the same OEM pad. The brakes were worked pretty hard and for a long period of time, enough to get smoke billowing out the wheels heavily. By the time we took off the OEM caliper and swapped to the Brembo BBK, the pads were falling apart. However, the caliper looked fine. This same OEM caliper was loaned to Scott which apparrently didn't even last 1 event. The logical variable here is the brake pads.

I'm pretty sure Scott will figure out a solution quickly. They have no choice, they can't upgrade.
oh``that mean we can't use track pad anymore with stock caliper. if we use it we need change a set caliper.
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      10-30-2008, 05:19 PM   #66
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mark M View Post
Berktech......if one is to go as far as producing titanium backing plates, wouldn't the better solution be alternative caliper pistons from the aftermarket?

Say for example a vendor offered a trade-in program. Send them your calipers and they will send you remanufactured ones with new aftermarket pistons installed?

Although, I admit this suggestion is a bit premature since we have not yet isolated if this is a problem facing all 135s or only a small run due to poor production processes with a batch of brembo calipers.
Aftermarket caliper pistons are out of my sphere of interest. They're easy enough to machine to size, but I would rather leave brake components to brake experts.

Titanium backing plates would be cake and are simple enough for the average guy to install. We've even got the perfect test bed to do the testing. :biggrin:

Will check our pistons tomorrow and let you guys know.
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