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      10-30-2008, 05:37 PM   #67
atr_hugo
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Thanks to all who've been staying on top of this and actually tearing things apart for inspection. It's this kinda stuff that keeps me coming back here!
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      10-30-2008, 05:42 PM   #68
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did anyone find out what is BMW performance brake's piston? is steel or aluminum.
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      10-30-2008, 05:55 PM   #69
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does 335i use same brake caliper as 135i???

so if same, they also should have some brake issue.
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      10-30-2008, 06:09 PM   #70
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Thanks to all who've been staying on top of this and actually tearing things apart for inspection. It's this kinda stuff that keeps me coming back here!
You have no choice. You are a moderator. :biggrin: Will let you guys know how I go with BMW over the next few days on this.
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      10-30-2008, 06:28 PM   #71
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does 335i use same brake caliper as 135i???

so if same, they also should have some brake issue.
The 3-series uses the older standard BMW 1-piston design (corrected, thanks Red Bread!) that has caused no problems as far as we know. IIRC, the caliper piston in that design is made of stainless steel.
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      10-30-2008, 06:49 PM   #72
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Actually, the 3er, just like every other BMW besides the 135i (six piston) and the 760Li (2 piston) uses a single piston design.

Has anyone looked into what's in Item 5 here:
http://www.realoem.com/bmw/showparts...41&hg=34&fg=05

Part # is 34 1 167 80 507 and on most other front calipers, that same title is given for the piston, seals and sleeve. This would of course only replace stock bits with stock bits, which doesn't really address the real problem, but it would allow for the racers to keep spares on hand if upgrading to a BBK isn't an option.

Of course after looking at the stock caliper and the "performance" caliper, it appears that Item 5 is simply a dust seal and no piston kit is offered:
http://www.realoem.com/bmw/showparts...81&hg=34&fg=95

See the E90 M3 diagram under Item 11 for the replacement sleeve, seal and piston ($25):
http://www.realoem.com/bmw/showparts...18&hg=34&fg=05
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      10-30-2008, 07:04 PM   #73
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Here's another thing that might be good to look into, the backing plate. Are the pads that you guys are running have new backing plate or are you reusing the OEM backing plate.

Also, I know there's no current brake pad application out for the OEM caliper and many are running the TMS Cool Blue pads which are pads that have been custom cut to fit. Does the brake pad have play or abnormal movement when they're inside the caliper?

WAY, if I recall correctly, you're running some brake pads from some unknown AMG car correct? Does the pad have play and what back plating are you using? Same question to Scott and anyone who's having these issues.

It could be that the back plating are different enough that the pads move under aggressive braking that combined with excessive heat and heat cycles can be a bad combination. Could also cause physical pressure to the piston body.
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      10-30-2008, 07:05 PM   #74
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I don't think it's an isolated issue. I think it'll happen every single time in the right conditions. I think it's the track pads causing a lot more heat and sustaining that heat is probably causing the damage. .
I don't buy the heat argument. High temps don't cause cracking. Rapid, uneven heating or cooling does. I'm betting there was a stress concentration there from either something on the back of the pad or foreign material.

I've cooked enough pads, rotors, and piston seals over the years to pay for my retirement, and I've never seen anything like that.
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      10-30-2008, 07:35 PM   #75
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I used the modified race pads (they are not AMG pads, but AMG fitment) initially which wore out in 2 track days, so I bought Cool Wilys to try out which is what is in the car now. I really doubt that is the reason.
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      10-30-2008, 07:44 PM   #76
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We use Hawk HT-10s from TMS and they are machined down to fit with the OEM backing plates (which we use).
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      10-30-2008, 09:20 PM   #77
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Are we looking at what they all will be like at 100,000 KM? Or does the stress and strain of racing take them that far beyond their design limitations? Obviously, if these were on an aircraft, the FAA would be grounding that plane. What about NHSTA? Should they be notified? This is definitely cause for great concern for all of us. Thanks to OP for posting this. It makes all other concerns/issues pale compared to this.
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      10-30-2008, 10:14 PM   #78
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I doubt this will be an issue with 99% of the people out there. Nothing to worry about, even in the long term I think.

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Are we looking at what they all will be like at 100,000 KM? Or does the stress and strain of racing take them that far beyond their design limitations? Obviously, if these were on an aircraft, the FTA would be grounding that plane. What about NHSTA? Should they be notified? This is definitely cause for great concern for all of us. Thanks to OP for posting this. It makes all other concerns/issues pale compared to this.
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      10-30-2008, 11:15 PM   #79
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We started the season on Motul 600


The reason I asked is because there are some brake fluids that become very acidic and corrosive at very high temperatures. I have heard of cases where the brake fluid actually "eats through" the coating on some pistons and creates issues. Castrol SRF was one of them. Castrol has even changed formulas a few times to try and fix it. This is obviously a different situation since the pistons actually look like they are cracking.

What pads are you guys running? I ask this question because there are no proper aftermarket options that I know of. There are a few people custom cutting larger pads to fit into these calipers, I wonder if that could have any connection to this problem. It's hard to believe something is getting hot enough to crack pistons. You would hit MOT on the pads first, or as someone else mentioned, warp rotors.

Brembo has the strictest R&D and testing procedures in the industry. These are obviously OEM parts, and not designed for heavy track use, but Brembo's testing procedures go beyond just simulated daily driving. They test each and every product to total failure to realize every "weak link" or problematic combination that they can find that would come up.
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      10-31-2008, 01:12 AM   #80
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Here are some pics of our calipers. This is after about 4 or so weekends of racing.

We pulled these off the car and borrowed Fred Su's OEM take-off calipers as he went to aftermarket Brembos. I heard from the mechanic that the new calipers are already cracking again after 1 weekend at Infineon.

Someone mentioned that this problem will probably not effect 99% of the 1-series drivers. How many is 1% - what if someone got hurt?









Looking at one of the pics, I can see a part number in the piston. Hmmm. Wonder if steel pistons of the same size could be obtained.

***WHO HAS THE YELLOW PERFORMANCE UPGRADE KIT??? I wonder if someone could take a magnet to the pistons to see if they are steel. If they are, could you get the 3 seperate part numbers off the pistons please. I'll just order 4 of each and install them in our calipers.
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      10-31-2008, 01:40 AM   #81
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We already checked with BMW here and they said pistons are not available separately...
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      10-31-2008, 03:45 AM   #82
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Evolution Racewerks View Post
I doubt this will be an issue with 99% of the people out there. Nothing to worry about, even in the long term I think.
could you get some pics of your stock calipers??

thanks.
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      10-31-2008, 03:55 AM   #83
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I really don't think that WAY only did 4 track days of about 7 laps per session (total of a mere 100 laps around Sandown) will cost this problem. There are only 1 hard braking zone per lap that I will consider slightly more than any Joe driving on the street aggressively. So only 100 hard press over 4 months will make this problem???? it is a serious problem.

Look at those cracks... these are abnormal cracks even in the events of endurance track meet.

That is not good at all.

If I were to upgrade the 6 pot to get a decent car, I may have to consider buying something else.
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      10-31-2008, 04:03 AM   #84
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Didn't take any pictures of the caliper when we swamped to the Brembo BBK's. Sorry no comparison pictures. We let Scott borrow our OEM calipers which didn't last 1 track day.

Quote:
Originally Posted by cuizhuoyi01 View Post
could you get some pics of your stock calipers??

thanks.
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      10-31-2008, 04:04 AM   #85
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I agree Taka. I haven't done that many laps. Ok there were a couple of mountain runs too that I used the brakes very agressively, but no more than any other agressive drivers. This is a serious problem...
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      10-31-2008, 04:07 AM   #86
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We've had 6 track days and our caliper was fine. The only difference between us and Scott/WAY is that they were running track pads and we were running stock.

I'm curious how Berk's caliper looks like. They road race also and run track pads.

Quote:
Originally Posted by takahashi View Post
I really don't think that WAY only did 4 track days of about 7 laps per session (total of a mere 100 laps around Sandown) will cost this problem. There are only 1 hard braking zone per lap that I will consider slightly more than any Joe driving on the street aggressively. So only 100 hard press over 4 months will make this problem???? it is a serious problem.

Look at those cracks... these are abnormal cracks even in the events of endurance track meet.

That is not good at all.

If I were to upgrade the 6 pot to get a decent car, I may have to consider buying something else.
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      10-31-2008, 04:17 AM   #87
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Fred, that too. Pad may have something to do with it but still. Think of the inferior Lancer with double the power it originally and use some shit pads around the same track; brake the same way and still go home with a sound caliper.... hey that is something wrong. Tell me you can use the car like that in a Subaru and a Lancer but not in a BMW 135... sigh

Cannot speak about WAY (hehe), but most people track regularly use brake efficiently that there is minimal pad/rotor contact times. That will not be a big problem. But I did say that when I tested WAY's pad and caliper at the pit side... it was much higher than my set up.
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      10-31-2008, 04:28 AM   #88
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True, however the Evo and STI with the 4 piston caliper were also made by Brembo as well.

Now I'm not saying that it's not the caliper issue, it might end up being so. However, to properly figure out what has gone wrong, we need to look at the situation objectively instead of assuming things and start pointing fingers. By doing so, we may not look at all the variables and miss the solution.

I have NEVER seen caliper pistons come apart like this, very puzzling mystery.

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Fred, that too. Pad may have something to do with it but still. Think of the inferior Lancer with double the power it originally and use some shit pads around the same track; brake the same way and still go home with a sound caliper.... hey that is something wrong. Tell me you can use the car like that in a Subaru and a Lancer but not in a BMW 135... sigh

Cannot speak about WAY (hehe), but most people track regularly use brake efficiently that there is minimal pad/rotor contact times. That will not be a big problem. But I did say that when I tested WAY's pad and caliper at the pit side... it was much higher than my set up.
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