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      01-01-2009, 01:38 PM   #45
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Quote:
Originally Posted by laloosh View Post
My question still remains. If this car is so adaptive and tunes itself, why are we even talking about the procede or jb3. The answer is that it is not. And if jb3 or procede is tuning the car based off the stock knock sensor then I would like nothing to do with either. Its very dangerous to double to boost, floor the car and let it learn it self. While this car is learning it is knocking and will continue to knock with temp changes, altitutde changes. So pretty much everytime you floor the car and the conditions change, its knocking until the car saves itself. Thats ass backwards when it comes to tuning.
The tuner's answer is:
"The ECU "remembers" the multi-dimensional timing table it builds. So just to expand on that thought in a theoretical sense, taking out say 2 degrees via the CPS the first time you give the car gas the first time you install a piggyback, you are being proactive for that first 3 seconds. But from that point on its 100% "reactive" based on the knock sensors. Yes, the engine is ALWAYS checking for knock conditions and adjusting accordingly. No matter what CPS offset you have. The only way it can do this is by advancing the timing up to the point just before actual knock"

I would suggest that if you are truly interested in gaining knowledge and sharing USEFUL information - why don't you debate your ideas over on E90post and N54tech - which is where the tuners of these products share their knowledge freely.

It's very easy to be an armchair critic.....as far as I can tell there are a lot of people trying to help you with your questions and you just wave off their attempts with your arrogance.
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      01-02-2009, 12:54 PM   #46
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Originally Posted by laloosh View Post
Wave off their attempts? You just said the car tunes itself untill it knocks. Thats not normal in my book. I read the posts e90 and n54 and care not to post there since both boards are biased as shit towards either a rebaged haltec or the jb3. Hell jb3 wont even answer how it controls timming. This aftermarket community is so small that every1 has an epenis and is trying to sell everything to every1 without explaining how and if it even works. It will get ironed out though.


You've been given the information you asked for, and now you're arguing that it's wrong.

The reason for using aftermarket tuners is to raise the boost levels, and then correct timing and fuel curves accordingly. Exactly how the JB3 and other tuners get this done isn't really something I would expect them to be completely open about, considering there are companies out there that would like to reverse engineer the products and sell their own.

The bottom line is, they DO increase the boost, and they DO correct the timing and fuel curves, and they DO adapt and make better power afterwards. There are all sorts of 3rd party dyno results that prove this.
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      01-02-2009, 03:41 PM   #47
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The only practical way to control timing is to offset the crank position sensor. The JB3 doesn't do that. BMS has indicated that the JB3 does retard timing at high boost but they have refused to identify how. The JB3 does not change the CPS signal in anyway. The only other way I know to retard the timing would be to scale the IAT but that would change fueling and other parameters. It is suspicious that BMS claims they retard timing yet do not provide data to support the claim or even a qualitative description of how the timing is controlled.

As far as whether you should retard timing when increasing (doubling) the boost, that isn't a question for anyone who knows anything about tuning. Relying on the factory knock sensor to keep you motor in one piece at double the factory boost is, well, you fill in the blank...
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      01-02-2009, 04:44 PM   #48
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dadasracecar View Post
The only practical way to control timing is to offset the crank position sensor. The JB3 doesn't do that. BMS has indicated that the JB3 does retard timing at high boost but they have refused to identify how. The JB3 does not change the CPS signal in anyway. The only other way I know to retard the timing would be to scale the IAT but that would change fueling and other parameters. It is suspicious that BMS claims they retard timing yet do not provide data to support the claim or even a qualitative description of how the timing is controlled.

As far as whether you should retard timing when increasing (doubling) the boost, that isn't a question for anyone who knows anything about tuning. Relying on the factory knock sensor to keep you motor in one piece at double the factory boost is, well, you fill in the blank...
I have seen BMS post OBDII logs showing the timing advance is being set, I mean anyone with a JB3 can just scan their car to verify it. The question is how they are doing it and they won't tell. They also posted Procede logs showing questionable stuff, like 1 or 2 degrees of timing retard. This twin turbo market is pretty hot right now and everyone is going at everyones throat for more business.
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      01-02-2009, 08:13 PM   #49
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ploz View Post
I have seen BMS post OBDII logs showing the timing advance is being set, I mean anyone with a JB3 can just scan their car to verify it. The question is how they are doing it and they won't tell. They also posted Procede logs showing questionable stuff, like 1 or 2 degrees of timing retard. This twin turbo market is pretty hot right now and everyone is going at everyones throat for more business.
Ummm, your OBDII logs? Really? Dude, your OBDII is going to show you what the ecu thinks is going on, not what the JB3 is doing to the ecu. The JB3, Procede, SSTT, etc. all lie to the ecue to make it do what they want, e.g. they tell the car it is leaner that it wants by scaling the WBO2 sensor. The ecu reacts and adds fuel. In the case of the PROcede, it lies to the ecu about the position of the crank. The car thinks it's running 8 deg of advance but it's really running 6. (8 - 2 from the Procede = 6). The way to determine if the JB3 is really pulling timing is to look at what the ecu thinks the timing advance is and compare that to a stock vehicle. If stock is 8 and the JB3 is 8, that's a good sign the timing is being retarded. If stock is 8 and the JB3 is 5-6 that's a sign the car knocks at 8 deg and the ecu has pulled timing.
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      01-02-2009, 08:28 PM   #50
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Quote:
Originally Posted by laloosh View Post
JB3 not wanting to reveal how they control timing infear of their ideas getting stolen by other companies? Please do you people honestly thing companies don't buy other companies products? I would bet money on the fact that shiv owns a jb3 and terry owns a procede...
Every business, company, corporations, etc. will try to demystify each other proprietary products. It's just the way it is.

Beside, you can't expect Burger King to spell out how they make their fries.

I read on the e90 of a poster (he was a system designer) trying to compare shiv's work vs terry's work. it was sad, because simplicity will always out do complexity.

Anyway, buy one or the other, enjoy it. If it blows up, it needs to be replaced anyway.
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      01-02-2009, 09:22 PM   #51
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SAM_702 View Post
it was sad, because simplicity will always out do complexity.
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      01-02-2009, 09:48 PM   #52
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Here's a good read if you have the time:

http://www.n54tech.com/forums/showthread.php?t=2588
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      01-03-2009, 12:52 AM   #53
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dadasracecar View Post
Ummm, your OBDII logs? Really? Dude, your OBDII is going to show you what the ecu thinks is going on, not what the JB3 is doing to the ecu. The JB3, Procede, SSTT, etc. all lie to the ecue to make it do what they want, e.g. they tell the car it is leaner that it wants by scaling the WBO2 sensor. The ecu reacts and adds fuel. In the case of the PROcede, it lies to the ecu about the position of the crank. The car thinks it's running 8 deg of advance but it's really running 6. (8 - 2 from the Procede = 6). The way to determine if the JB3 is really pulling timing is to look at what the ecu thinks the timing advance is and compare that to a stock vehicle. If stock is 8 and the JB3 is 8, that's a good sign the timing is being retarded. If stock is 8 and the JB3 is 5-6 that's a sign the car knocks at 8 deg and the ecu has pulled timing.
It sounds like you are just repeating the Vishnu talking points. If the JB3 is not altering the CPS data then the OBDII is going to be accurate. If you read both threads there are some drawbacks to altering the CPS signal brought up with relation to the injector timing, VANOS timing, etc. What I found most interesting was the OBDII logs showing the JB3 actual timing vs. a flash tune timing. Almost identical, and no big timing dips as if you were running on the knock sensors.

The guy doing the testing is doing on road testing next and going to share independent OBDII logs of both tunes, I think those will be interesting to see! Although it seems like he works for Vishnu.
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      01-03-2009, 08:48 AM   #54
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I don't work for Vishnu and would never buy a PROcede. I hate the torque targeting crap. I just want control of boost, timing, and fueling. I'll make my own decisions regarding torque, etc. I do however agree with the need for timing retard with increased boost and was really surprised and disappointed to see that the JB3 doesn't offer that. I don't like the "we control timing, trust us" position that BMS has taken. I've had enough of that in the last 8 years...
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      01-03-2009, 09:16 AM   #55
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dadasracecar View Post
I don't work for Vishnu and would never buy a PROcede. I hate the torque targeting crap. I just want control of boost, timing, and fueling. I'll make my own decisions regarding torque, etc. I do however agree with the need for timing retard with increased boost and was really surprised and disappointed to see that the JB3 doesn't offer that. I don't like the "we control timing, trust us" position that BMS has taken. I've had enough of that in the last 8 years...
Why would BMS want to explain to his competitors how his tune works? There are a lot of companies out there in addition to Vishnu that offer piggybacks. At the present time the JB3 is argueably the best tune having outperformed all of the other piggybacks both on the dyno and at the track. Should Terry make a little diagram and tell you guys exactly how his tune works so you and Shiv can incorporate it into the tunes your respective companies sell.
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      01-03-2009, 09:33 AM   #56
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The problem is they haven't shown anywhere that they do control timing. In the absence of any datalogs showing that they pull timing while doubling the boost, i'd at least like a reasonable explanation for how timing is pulled. If it's not CPS offset, then how are they doing it? Magic? I need more than that for my $45K car. I could also care less about dynos. There was fully built mazdaspeed3 that was the first to hit "400 whp." The car never ran right after, the turbo blew in a week and the dyno was a dynocom that routinely hit 30-40 whp higher than other local setups. I don't give a shit about the number, I want more performance from a tune I can trust and I'm not trusting it if I don't know that it works. I don't know that the JB3 can pull timing and nothing has shown me that it can.
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      01-03-2009, 09:47 AM   #57
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dadasracecar View Post
The problem is they haven't shown anywhere that they do control timing. In the absence of any datalogs showing that they pull timing while doubling the boost, i'd at least like a reasonable explanation for how timing is pulled. If it's not CPS offset, then how are they doing it? Magic? I need more than that for my $45K car. I could also care less about dynos. There was fully built mazdaspeed3 that was the first to hit "400 whp." The car never ran right after, the turbo blew in a week and the dyno was a dynocom that routinely hit 30-40 whp higher than other local setups. I don't give a shit about the number, I want more performance from a tune I can trust and I'm not trusting it if I don't know that it works. I don't know that the JB3 can pull timing and nothing has shown me that it can.
How's 120 mph:headbang: in the 1/4 for performace http://www.dragtimes.com/BMW--135i-Drag-Racing.html. Ever driven a JB3 tuned car? Incredible power with silky smooth throttle responce. The ecu is much different and more complicated on the new BMW's compared with Mazdas. You can't take what you know from Mazda tuning and automatically assume it applies to the N54. The proof is in the pudding. Go drive a JB3 car and then tell me there's no control of timing. BMS has found a better way of doing things through extensive testing. Eventually you guys will figure out how the JB3 is working and incorperate it into your own tunes, but don't expect BMS to explain to you how to copy it on an internet forum
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      01-03-2009, 10:53 AM   #58
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There's a guy on E90 & N54 that has over 25k miles on his JB3 auto. Both the car and tranny are running like a champ. I'll try and dig up the thread.
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      01-03-2009, 08:53 PM   #59
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Quote:
Originally Posted by trent05 View Post
How's 120 mph:headbang: in the 1/4 for performace http://www.dragtimes.com/BMW--135i-Drag-Racing.html. Ever driven a JB3 tuned car? Incredible power with silky smooth throttle responce. The ecu is much different and more complicated on the new BMW's compared with Mazdas. You can't take what you know from Mazda tuning and automatically assume it applies to the N54. The proof is in the pudding. Go drive a JB3 car and then tell me there's no control of timing. BMS has found a better way of doing things through extensive testing. Eventually you guys will figure out how the JB3 is working and incorperate it into your own tunes, but don't expect BMS to explain to you how to copy it on an internet forum
On the one hand you say the JB3 is retarding timing. On the other, it's the miraculous BMW ecu that fixes everything. This isn't rocket science guy. When increasing boost significantly, timing should be retarded to offset the extreme cylinder pressures and heat to mitigate the chance of knock. I don't care what car we're talking about. The speculation is that the JB3 does not control timing. It's in BMS's interest to demonstrate that a.) they do, or b.) they know how. Neither have been demonstrated. Maybe the BMW ecu is good enough to prevent long term damage from a gizmo that doubles the boost and adds fuel. Maybe not. Until demonstrated, that's all the JB3 is. Again, I don't care about the number - dyno, ET, trap speed. I want more performance from a tune I can trust.
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      01-04-2009, 01:30 AM   #60
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dadasracecar View Post
On the one hand you say the JB3 is retarding timing. On the other, it's the miraculous BMW ecu that fixes everything. This isn't rocket science guy. When increasing boost significantly, timing should be retarded to offset the extreme cylinder pressures and heat to mitigate the chance of knock. I don't care what car we're talking about. The speculation is that the JB3 does not control timing. It's in BMS's interest to demonstrate that a.) they do, or b.) they know how. Neither have been demonstrated. Maybe the BMW ecu is good enough to prevent long term damage from a gizmo that doubles the boost and adds fuel. Maybe not. Until demonstrated, that's all the JB3 is. Again, I don't care about the number - dyno, ET, trap speed. I want more performance from a tune I can trust.
From reading your posts it sounds like you are a little slow on reading comprehension? It's OK, it is a common problem. The OBDII logs have been posted and the timing curve appears smooth and consistent with other tunes. Experts are debating whether or not crank position alteration is a good thing. Why don't you join one of those conversations so you can learn something rather than spouting off your nonsense?
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      01-04-2009, 01:49 AM   #61
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Originally Posted by trent05 View Post
Eventually you guys will figure out how the JB3 is working and incorperate it into your own tunes, but don't expect BMS to explain to you how to copy it on an internet forum
I think its stupid for people to expect BMS to share their secrets, but it is reasonable for people to want to see proof of it working. The net effect. The OBDII logs BMS posted seem to point in that direction, and I am curious to see if the testing shows similar results. The problem is that 90% of the readers are too slow to read the logs and only respond to scare tactics. Another 5% think they know something about tuning BMWs because they loaded a flash tune on their EVO. The 5% that know something are drowned out by the constant BS.

Wouldn't it be something if the JB3 OBDII timing logs were the same or higher than the V3 logs?
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      01-04-2009, 07:56 AM   #62
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Wow, this thread has turned into a huge pissing match. On the topic of the JB3 i just got my 135i the other day. Long story short my subaru transmission took a crap so i got a 135i. The JB3 appears to be one, if not the cheapest piggy back system on the market. Does anyone have any problems using the JB3 in their car or any negative side affects i should be aware of? For instance does using the JB3 or any tuning for that matter contribute to the high pressure fuel pump failing as ive seen a couple threads about the fuel pump failing. I had a COBB accessport (ecu re-flash) in my WRX and i loved it but i dont see the point in paying for a DINAN flash.
thank you for any input.

PS is there a company out there that offers an OBDII data logger? My COBB accessport allowed me to data log, and send that information into a reflash company for a more specific tune. If so that could solve the dilema.
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      01-04-2009, 09:08 AM   #63
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ploz View Post
From reading your posts it sounds like you are a little slow on reading comprehension? It's OK, it is a common problem. The OBDII logs have been posted and the timing curve appears smooth and consistent with other tunes. Experts are debating whether or not crank position alteration is a good thing. Why don't you join one of those conversations so you can learn something rather than spouting off your nonsense?
It think it's you that's a little slow on the uptake. I've asked for proof of timing control and haven't gotten any. OBDII logs don't mean anything b/c the ecu is being lied to by the piggyback - so they'll be incorrect. I'd be willing to be I'm a little more experienced than you so be careful with your inane remarks. They're counterproductive and demonstrate that you really have nothing to offer.
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      01-04-2009, 10:36 AM   #64
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It think it's you that's a little slow on the uptake. I've asked for proof of timing control and haven't gotten any. OBDII logs don't mean anything b/c the ecu is being lied to by the piggyback - so they'll be incorrect. .

The timing logs certainly do mean something. The ECU is still controlling the spark. It doesn't matter if it's being lied to or not, the logs are still what's actually being used.

For the logs to be incorrect, the piggyback would have to be firing the plugs itself, and it's not.
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      01-04-2009, 12:30 PM   #65
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Quote:
Originally Posted by laloosh View Post
Actually fellas I have witnessed what DADA is talking about first hand. On my previous car i had an obdII datalogger that would record just about anything. Everytime i messed with timing, the actual timing vs the timing reported by the obdII unit was way off. I was increasing 6 degrees of timing on meth. STock timing was 12-13, my actual was 18-19, obdII reported 9....figure that one out

How were you increasing the timing?
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      01-04-2009, 02:02 PM   #66
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Originally Posted by dereknmmi View Post
Wow, this thread has turned into a huge pissing match. On the topic of the JB3 i just got my 135i the other day. Long story short my subaru transmission took a crap so i got a 135i. The JB3 appears to be one, if not the cheapest piggy back system on the market. Does anyone have any problems using the JB3 in their car or any negative side affects i should be aware of? For instance does using the JB3 or any tuning for that matter contribute to the high pressure fuel pump failing as ive seen a couple threads about the fuel pump failing. I had a COBB accessport (ecu re-flash) in my WRX and i loved it but i dont see the point in paying for a DINAN flash.
thank you for any input.

PS is there a company out there that offers an OBDII data logger? My COBB accessport allowed me to data log, and send that information into a reflash company for a more specific tune. If so that could solve the dilema.
I had a couple of little things like a service engine soon light for less than a day directly after I installed the JB3. That seemed to correct itself and hasn't returned. Also, I put the car on a dyno and threw 2 Check Engine Lights while doing the pull. When I get the chance I'm going to be working with Terry from BMS to hopefully resolve this issue. I can't duplicate the issue on the street though so we're not really sure what the deal is.

The only negative I can think of is potentially voiding your warranty. As far as the data logging goes you might be able to hook up with Active Autowerks and get their Active Processor and create custom tunes. Not sure though you would have to go directly to them. Hopefully this helps.
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