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      01-04-2009, 04:53 PM   #67
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Quote:
Originally Posted by laloosh View Post
I was increasing timing with a piggy sysmtem (interceptor)

Ok, and it was probably altering the crank position signal, which is why the logs weren't right.

If the JB3 were doing the same thing, they'd be way off here as well, but that's not what's been seen.
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      01-04-2009, 05:48 PM   #68
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Originally Posted by laloosh View Post
Then what is it doing if people who plug in obdII readers cant see any timing changes?

They do see timing changes. The changes resemble what's being seen with other tunes. The timing has to change to make this much more power.

I don't know how it's doing it, and I don't care. It works well, and is very cost effective.
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      01-04-2009, 06:30 PM   #69
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jeremyc74 View Post
They do see timing changes. The changes resemble what's being seen with other tunes. The timing has to change to make this much more power.

I don't know how it's doing it, and I don't care. It works well, and is very cost effective.
THAT would be scary as you make power by advancing timing. Retarding is a safety measure when increasing boost.
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      01-04-2009, 06:37 PM   #70
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Originally Posted by dadasracecar View Post
THAT would be scary as you make power by advancing timing. Retarding is a safety measure when increasing boost.


What are you talking about? Where did I say anything about retarding timing? I said it has to CHANGE. I would consider advancment a change.
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      01-04-2009, 07:03 PM   #71
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Here's another good read regarding timing:

http://www.n54tech.com/forums/showpo...83&postcount=1
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      01-04-2009, 07:32 PM   #72
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jeremyc74 View Post
What are you talking about? Where did I say anything about retarding timing? I said it has to CHANGE. I would consider advancment a change.
There is no way the JB3 (or any other piggyback for that matter) is advancing timing over stock while raising the boost to almost double the stock pressure. That would be suicide unless you were running some sort of methanol system.
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      01-04-2009, 11:32 PM   #73
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dadasracecar View Post
There is no way the JB3 (or any other piggyback for that matter) is advancing timing over stock while raising the boost to almost double the stock pressure. That would be suicide unless you were running some sort of methanol system.

Your posts don't even make sense any more.

I said the timing HAS TO CHANGE in order to make as much power as people are seeing with the JB3. Are you saying that the timing ISN'T changing? So the JB3 is able to increase the boost and power levels and the stock timing is still working? :iono:
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      01-04-2009, 11:40 PM   #74
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dadasracecar View Post
There is no way the JB3 (or any other piggyback for that matter) is advancing timing over stock while raising the boost to almost double the stock pressure. That would be suicide unless you were running some sort of methanol system.
Where did he say advancing???
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      01-04-2009, 11:52 PM   #75
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It seems that here and in other forums there is a select few that want Terry to reveal his secrets... if you don't trust the info you are getting on the tune then don't buy it... but don't expect Terry to lay out everything so Shiv and whoever else can just take his hard work and add it to their tune...
Case in point...http://www.n54tech.com/forums/showthread.php?t=2625
Can not wait to see the Shiv nut hangers spin this...
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      01-05-2009, 10:47 AM   #76
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jeremyc74 View Post
They do see timing changes. The changes resemble what's being seen with other tunes. The timing has to change to make this much more power.

I don't know how it's doing it, and I don't care. It works well, and is very cost effective.
Quote:
Originally Posted by dadasracecar View Post
THAT would be scary as you make power by advancing timing. Retarding is a safety measure when increasing boost.
Quote:
Originally Posted by jeremyc74 View Post
What are you talking about? Where did I say anything about retarding timing? I said it has to CHANGE. I would consider advancment a change.
Quote:
Originally Posted by dadasracecar View Post
There is no way the JB3 (or any other piggyback for that matter) is advancing timing over stock while raising the boost to almost double the stock pressure. That would be suicide unless you were running some sort of methanol system.
Quote:
Originally Posted by jeremyc74 View Post
Your posts don't even make sense any more.

I said the timing HAS TO CHANGE in order to make as much power as people are seeing with the JB3. Are you saying that the timing ISN'T changing? So the JB3 is able to increase the boost and power levels and the stock timing is still working? :iono:

My posts don't make sense? You're delusional. What the hell does CHANGE mean to you? It's either retarded or advanced from the stock position. Read the quoted posts that you made.

I'm saying the JB3 increases boost and fueling but, until shown otherwise, it does not change timing. The speculation is that it relies on the car's knock sensor to pull timing when the car knocks at high boost on the stock timing map. That's why it may be dangerous. It would be if that speculation is true.

The general rule of thumb is that you pull timing when significantly increasing boost to mitigate knock. If you're just raising (doubling) boost and adding fuel any car will knock. Relying on the knock sensor to pull timing after the fact is reactive and bad because your engine will suffer that knock event - possibly every time you go into that max boost situation. If a piggyback pulls timing when raising boost the car (hopefully) won't knock under high boost and the ecu controls the timing as normal. It may advance or retard the timing but it will do so using it's full range rather than immediately pulling a bunch from a big knock event caused by doubling the boost and leaving timing as it were.
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      01-05-2009, 11:13 AM   #77
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dadasracecar View Post

The general rule of thumb is that you pull timing when significantly increasing boost to mitigate knock. If you're just raising (doubling) boost and adding fuel any car will knock. Relying on the knock sensor to pull timing after the fact is reactive and bad because your engine will suffer that knock event - possibly every time you go into that max boost situation. If a piggyback pulls timing when raising boost the car (hopefully) won't knock under high boost and the ecu controls the timing as normal. It may advance or retard the timing but it will do so using it's full range rather than immediately pulling a bunch from a big knock event caused by doubling the boost and leaving timing as it were.

First you say you think the JB3 is relying on the knock sensor to pull timing, but then you say that doing that will pull a bunch of timing. If it pulled a lot of timing (as in a knock event) there's no way we'd be seeing the kind of power gains that are being posted.

Also, in contradiction to your earlier statements, if the ECU is pulling timing due to a knock event, why wouldn't the OBDII logs be accurate?

Is it your position that the ECU is pulling the timing, or not? You can't have it both ways. Either the ECU is being tricked through manipulation of the crank sensor, and the JB3 is controlling timing that way, making the logs invalid, or the JB3 is relying on the knock sensor to pull the timing, and the logs will show it. Please clarify exactly what your position is. :iono:
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      01-05-2009, 11:26 AM   #78
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dadasracecar View Post
My posts don't make sense? You're delusional. What the hell does CHANGE mean to you? It's either retarded or advanced from the stock position. Read the quoted posts that you made.

I'm saying the JB3 increases boost and fueling but, until shown otherwise, it does not change timing. The speculation is that it relies on the car's knock sensor to pull timing when the car knocks at high boost on the stock timing map. That's why it may be dangerous. It would be if that speculation is true.

The general rule of thumb is that you pull timing when significantly increasing boost to mitigate knock. If you're just raising (doubling) boost and adding fuel any car will knock. Relying on the knock sensor to pull timing after the fact is reactive and bad because your engine will suffer that knock event - possibly every time you go into that max boost situation. If a piggyback pulls timing when raising boost the car (hopefully) won't knock under high boost and the ecu controls the timing as normal. It may advance or retard the timing but it will do so using it's full range rather than immediately pulling a bunch from a big knock event caused by doubling the boost and leaving timing as it were.
Already explained on post #55 - I think he is saying the ECU adapts to the changes and remembers them for the next time the same conditions are encountered.......BUT as a secondary backup, it is still listening for knock all the time and fine tuning accordingly.

The tuner's answer is:
"The ECU "remembers" the multi-dimensional timing table it builds. So just to expand on that thought in a theoretical sense, taking out say 2 degrees via the CPS the first time you give the car gas the first time you install a piggyback, you are being proactive for that first 3 seconds. But from that point on its 100% "reactive" based on the knock sensors. Yes, the engine is ALWAYS checking for knock conditions and adjusting accordingly. No matter what CPS offset you have. The only way it can do this is by advancing the timing up to the point just before actual knock"
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      01-05-2009, 11:53 AM   #79
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Quote:
Originally Posted by laloosh View Post
When it comes to timing, obdII logs are not accurate cause the system is being lied too. This has been shown through experience with several other platforms. I have yet to test this on the 1, but will as soon as i get the car in my hands.

How is the system being lied to if the crank position isn't being manipulated?

If it's not, then the logs can't be inaccurate.
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      01-05-2009, 11:57 AM   #80
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jeremyc74 View Post
First you say you think the JB3 is relying on the knock sensor to pull timing, but then you say that doing that will pull a bunch of timing. If it pulled a lot of timing (as in a knock event) there's no way we'd be seeing the kind of power gains that are being posted.

Also, in contradiction to your earlier statements, if the ECU is pulling timing due to a knock event, why wouldn't the OBDII logs be accurate?

Is it your position that the ECU is pulling the timing, or not? You can't have it both ways. Either the ECU is being tricked through manipulation of the crank sensor, and the JB3 is controlling timing that way, making the logs invalid, or the JB3 is relying on the knock sensor to pull the timing, and the logs will show it. Please clarify exactly what your position is. :iono:
My position is the JB3 does not control timing and is relying on the knock sensor to protect the motor. OBDII logs would show a reduction in timing vs. stock. Until BMS shows timing and IAT logs from the exact same vehicle running w/ and w/o the JB3 they are not pulling timing and are relying on the ecu to pull timing. Pulling timing is necessary when running the boost that the JB3 runs.
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      01-05-2009, 01:37 PM   #81
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dadasracecar View Post
My position is the JB3 does not control timing and is relying on the knock sensor to protect the motor. OBDII logs would show a reduction in timing vs. stock. Until BMS shows timing and IAT logs from the exact same vehicle running w/ and w/o the JB3 they are not pulling timing and are relying on the ecu to pull timing. Pulling timing is necessary when running the boost that the JB3 runs.
Reading through all of your posts, and the knowledge and bias you have, I'm guessing you're not who you say you are.

Either a direct competitor, or based off your post history.. A reseller who sells Procede and CP-e.

....so that could make you Shiv, Rixster, or somebody else at that new shop.
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      01-05-2009, 02:03 PM   #82
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Show me the bias.

I don't think it's a good idea to double the boost without retarding timing. Period. I don't care what car or tune we're talking about.

This thread is titled JB3 and I think it bears mentioning that Scalbert on e90 has found that there is no way the JB3 controls timing according to all of the measurements he's made.

BMS has been less than forthcoming about their timing control strategy, or lack thereof.

I'm not selling anything yet and don't have any relationship whatsoever with Shiv or Rixster.
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      01-05-2009, 02:14 PM   #83
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dadasracecar View Post
Show me the bias.

I don't think it's a good idea to double the boost without retarding timing. Period. I don't care what car or tune we're talking about.

This thread is titled JB3 and I think it bears mentioning that Scalbert on e90 has found that there is no way the JB3 controls timing according to all of the measurements he's made.

BMS has been less than forthcoming about their timing control strategy, or lack thereof.

I'm not selling anything yet and don't have any relationship whatsoever with Shiv or Rixster.
Well.. you're a technical guy who came out of nowhere during this debate, who is also preaching the EXACT same arguments as the Shiv corner. So I'll call BS.

As for who is right and who is wrong... All I'm going to say is the JB3 couldn't work if it didn't have a method of adjusting. You both make good products, I'd prefer the one with better customer service, and better prices.
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      01-05-2009, 02:19 PM   #84
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Let me reiterate. I am not shiv, do not recommend the PROcede at all, and have no intention of ever selling it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by JohnnyTT View Post
Well.. you're a technical guy who came out of nowhere during this debate, who is also preaching the EXACT same arguments as the Shiv corner. So I'll call BS.

As for who is right and who is wrong... All I'm going to say is the JB3 couldn't work if it didn't have a method of adjusting. You both make good products, I'd prefer the one with better customer service, and better prices.
And you accuse me of being biased? Really? With blatant fanboy statements like that?
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      01-05-2009, 02:22 PM   #85
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dadasracecar View Post
Let me reiterate. I am not shiv, do not recommend the PROcede at all, and have no intention of ever selling it.
If that's the case.. .. Do you agree with what I said? Could the JB3 work as well as it does if it wasn't in control somehow?
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      01-05-2009, 02:27 PM   #86
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dadasracecar View Post
And you accuse me of being biased? Really? With blatant fanboy statements like that?
and I'm not a fanboy, or owner. I've just developed an opinion via the way all these guys carry themselves. Certain companies, CP-e, BMS, Modbrgns, Dan @ United, etc... Have provided nothing but the best customer service, and always handled themselves maturely.
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      01-05-2009, 03:07 PM   #87
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JohnnyTT View Post
If that's the case.. .. Do you agree with what I said? Could the JB3 work as well as it does if it wasn't in control somehow?
It's pretty easy to raise the boost and add fuel - go read Scalbert's analysis. The effects of knock will develop over time and may not be visible immediately. The BMW ecu likely has a very good knock sensor and knock strategy as it's capable of handling lower octane fuel without damage. The JB3 may be capitalizing on that in that the knock strategy protects the motor adequately (for the time being) when it doubles the boost.

Ultimately though when boost is doubled the first time, the car will knock and the ecu will pull timing because of it. Whether it does so once and remembers or every time you go WOT is not something I can answer atm. Neither is good or acceptable IMO but one is certainly worse than the other.

BMS claims timing control in their advertising. An independent guy could not verify that claim and BMS has not explained how their doing it despite repeated requests for any information. Shiv isn't going to reprogram the PROcede to change timing as his system works - at least in that regard. AFAIK there is really only one way to precisely change timing with a piggyback and that is cps offset and the JB3 doesn't do that.
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      01-05-2009, 03:26 PM   #88
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dadasracecar View Post
It's pretty easy to raise the boost and add fuel - go read Scalbert's analysis. The effects of knock will develop over time and may not be visible immediately. The BMW ecu likely has a very good knock sensor and knock strategy as it's capable of handling lower octane fuel without damage. The JB3 may be capitalizing on that in that the knock strategy protects the motor adequately (for the time being) when it doubles the boost.

Ultimately though when boost is doubled the first time, the car will knock and the ecu will pull timing because of it. Whether it does so once and remembers or every time you go WOT is not something I can answer atm. Neither is good or acceptable IMO but one is certainly worse than the other.

BMS claims timing control in their advertising. An independent guy could not verify that claim and BMS has not explained how their doing it despite repeated requests for any information. Shiv isn't going to reprogram the PROcede to change timing as his system works - at least in that regard. AFAIK there is really only one way to precisely change timing with a piggyback and that is cps offset and the JB3 doesn't do that.
Are you joking?

1) Scalbert runs a Vishnu system and helped with the design based on posts on e90post. He is not independent.

2) Have you seen the latest thread with OBDII logs?

http://www.n54tech.com/forums/showthread.php?t=2625

There is some good logs and info BMS posted there to refute you. If you compare the logs in that thread to other logs posted you will see both the V3 and the JB3 OBDII reports a lot lower timing than the stock. The V3 log says the tuning is only pulling 1/2 degree timing at peak torque, which is like double the factory boost according to the boost log. 1/2 degree for double the boost and that is procedes timing solution?

BMS has shown OBDII logs proving the timing control is working you are just ignoring them and trolling.
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