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      01-17-2009, 09:16 PM   #1
Papethova
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Piggyback Question

I've been wondering since the piggybacks fool the car with intake temps and various things does it also fool the ecu into thinking the car is traveling at a different speed than it actually is?

Can or is the speed limiter bypassed because the ecu thinks the car is traveling at 80mph when in reality its going 180??
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      01-17-2009, 09:25 PM   #2
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I think they fool the car's temperature and altitude reading. They tell the computer that the car is at sea level and cold temp. So they probably don't work as well if the car is really at sea level and is already in cold weather.

I also don't think that piggybacks change the speed limiter, I believe you need an ecu hack for that.
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      01-17-2009, 09:55 PM   #3
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As far as I know the JB3 doesn't alter the limiter, but I haven't had a chance to find out. Just going by the signals it tapped into, I'm not sure how it could.

If the ECU thinks you're going slower than you actually are, it would probably screw up the speedometer and OD.
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      01-17-2009, 10:34 PM   #4
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I read that the ECU get speed readings from 4 separate sources <wheel sensor, transmission sensor, engine speed sensor, differential sensor..> somethings like that..so most piggybacks CANNOT override them without throwing codes..i know it sucks doesn't it...
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      01-17-2009, 11:43 PM   #5
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Actually I asked because I was told by someone that on a dyno the vehicle speed was very different based on dyno readings versus what the ecu was showing. As in the ecu was showing much lower which can cause problems if stability controls attempt to correct something and the ecu thinks your going half the speed you actually are.

I just wanted to know how accurate that information is
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      01-18-2009, 12:52 AM   #6
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Papethova View Post
Actually I asked because I was told by someone that on a dyno the vehicle speed was very different based on dyno readings versus what the ecu was showing. As in the ecu was showing much lower which can cause problems if stability controls attempt to correct something and the ecu thinks your going half the speed you actually are.

I just wanted to know how accurate that information is
The SSTT does not change the speed limiter. The car will not go fsater than 155...
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      01-18-2009, 05:08 AM   #7
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Read this, it should give you an idea
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      01-18-2009, 05:15 AM   #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Papethova View Post
I've been wondering since the piggybacks fool the car with intake temps and various things does it also fool the ecu into thinking the car is traveling at a different speed than it actually is?

Can or is the speed limiter bypassed because the ecu thinks the car is traveling at 80mph when in reality its going 180??
Contrary to rumors, there is no diagnostic issue will defeating the factory speed limiter. This is usually done by clamping the speed sensor signal just before the factory limiter kicks in. Some piggybacks cannot do this by the virtue of their hardware design. Others, like the PROcede, do offer such a feature. There have been no dealership issues experienced by anyone who has actually tested this feature. No codes. No flags.

Maximum GPS verified speeds have been 187mph. If I was driving that fast, I wouldn't be thinking about warranty risks. I'd have other concerns on my mind

Shiv
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      01-18-2009, 05:44 AM   #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by shiv@vishnu View Post
Contrary to rumors, there is no diagnostic issue will defeating the factory speed limiter. This is usually done by clamping the speed sensor signal just before the factory limiter kicks in. Some piggybacks cannot do this by the virtue of their hardware design. Others, like the PROcede, do offer such a feature. There have been no dealership issues experienced by anyone who has actually tested this feature. No codes. No flags.

Maximum GPS verified speeds have been 187mph. If I was driving that fast, I wouldn't be thinking about warranty risks. I'd have other concerns on my mind

Shiv
Shiv Go away.... Terry got banned for less, come on MODS this is out of hand! He is mentioning his "product" in non commercial threads!!!!!



Although will it happen.........? :bs:
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      01-18-2009, 12:42 PM   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by shiv@vishnu View Post
Contrary to rumors, there is no diagnostic issue will defeating the factory speed limiter. This is usually done by clamping the speed sensor signal just before the factory limiter kicks in. Some piggybacks cannot do this by the virtue of their hardware design. Others, like the PROcede, do offer such a feature. There have been no dealership issues experienced by anyone who has actually tested this feature. No codes. No flags.

Maximum GPS verified speeds have been 187mph. If I was driving that fast, I wouldn't be thinking about warranty risks. I'd have other concerns on my mind

Shiv
Shiv,
you know that the issue isn't whether it has yet been detected at the dealership level. I think the issue is that it probably could if a PUMA case gets filed and BMW digs into the raw data to see the inconsistencies between the different sensors.

Can't vehicle speed can be determined in various ways, not just by the speed sensor?

Seems reasonable that one can determine final speed by correlating rpm in a given gear to equate with a mph calculation which would then conflict with the clamped speed sensor signal.

"just because you don't get a limp code when you alter the CPS, dummy the solenoids, or clamp 1/3 of the speed inputs, doesn't mean BMW/PUMA can't easily spot those variances on the back end."

Smoke and mirrors indeed!
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      01-18-2009, 01:01 PM   #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dcafs View Post
Shiv,
you know that the issue isn't whether it has yet been detected at the dealership level. I think the issue is that it probably could if a PUMA case gets filed and BMW digs into the raw data to see the inconsistencies between the different sensors.

Can't vehicle speed can be determined in various ways, not just by the speed sensor?

Seems reasonable that one can determine final speed by correlating rpm in a given gear to equate with a mph calculation which would then conflict with the clamped speed sensor signal.

"just because you don't get a limp code when you alter the CPS, dummy the solenoids, or clamp 1/3 of the speed inputs, doesn't mean BMW/PUMA can't easily spot those variances on the back end."

Smoke and mirrors indeed!
Actually, no. Puma data uses the one and only speed sensor input to determine vehicle speed. And only as a snap shot. And only if a code is triggered. The other comments regarding visibility of CPS offsetting and solenoid load is typically hollow. And since you already have a jb3, why don't you just enjoy it instead of being party of the spreading of misinformation?

shiv
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      01-18-2009, 01:06 PM   #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by shiv@vishnu View Post
The other comments regarding visibility of CPS offsetting and solenoid load is typically hollow.
I don't any tune , I don't have a car yet lol , so could explain this comment a bit more?
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      01-18-2009, 01:12 PM   #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by adood84 View Post
I don't any tune , I don't have a car yet lol , so could explain this comment a bit more?
By hollow, i mean completely insubstantial. It's common for someone to spread plausible sounding misinformation and hope that it evolves into something that can be easily mistaken as fact by those who aren't technically knowledgeable. Especially when they are the ones faced with the technical limitations. Basically, when you can't do something, instead of admitting it, tell the world that doing so is undesirable.

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      01-18-2009, 01:13 PM   #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jcw2006aus View Post
Shiv Go away.... Terry got banned for less, come on MODS this is out of hand! He is mentioning his "product" in non commercial threads!!!!!





Although will it happen.........? :bs:
I'm not sure exactly what terry did to get banned, but I agree that shiv needs to be carefull on this forum. The mode are very touchy about venders. It's unfortunate though, because he was just correcting misinformation about speed delimiters. I would have answered, but I figure it too easy of an answer for someone else not to take a stab at it.

But why are you so angy?
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      01-18-2009, 01:17 PM   #15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by shiv@vishnu View Post
Actually, no. Puma data uses the one and only speed sensor input to determine vehicle speed. And only as a snap shot. And only if a code is triggered. The other comments regarding visibility of CPS offsetting and solenoid load is typically hollow. And since you already have a jb3, why don't you just enjoy it instead of being party of the spreading of misinformation?

shiv
It's not perfect either, but you evade answers too!

Like the one I mention about taking rpm and gear readings to extrapolate mph. Are you insinuating via your "non-responsive and hollow answer" that the DME does not record these items?
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      01-18-2009, 01:21 PM   #16
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Quote:
Originally Posted by shiv@vishnu View Post

Maximum GPS verified speeds have been 187mph. If I was driving that fast, I wouldn't be thinking about warranty risks. I'd have other concerns on my mind

Shiv
Thats exactly what I was saying. Im not concerned with dealer detection or warranties getting voided. Im concerned with what the stability control system will do and the final outcome when the ecu thinks the car is going 80mph and in reality its going 180mph.
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      01-18-2009, 01:26 PM   #17
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Papethova View Post
Thats exactly what I was saying. Im not concerned with dealer detection or warranties getting voided. Im concerned with what the stability control system will do and the final outcome when the ecu thinks the car is going 80mph and in reality its going 180mph.
Different sensor signals deal with stability control, so the two should not conflict
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      01-18-2009, 01:27 PM   #18
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Papethova View Post
Thats exactly what I was saying. Im not concerned with dealer detection or warranties getting voided. Im concerned with what the stability control system will do and the final outcome when the ecu thinks the car is going 80mph and in reality its going 180mph.
The stability control system is a completely different module. It is not effected by the speed signal going into the ECU. It gets four individual wheel sensors inputs directly from the wheels speed sensors.

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      01-18-2009, 01:31 PM   #19
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dcafs View Post
It's not perfect either, but you evade answers too!

Like the one I mention about taking rpm and gear readings to extrapolate mph. Are you insinuating via your "non-responsive and hollow answer" that the DME does not record these items?
I really don't understand what I am/or have been avoiding. Also, there is no "gear reading". It would have to be calculated from RPM and vehicle speed captured in a snap shot at the moment when a code is triggered. So one would effectively be solving a 3 variable equation with only 1 known value. Hardly conclusive at the Puma level. If this is truly a concern for anyone, it's easy enough just to either not go above the factory speed limit or disable the speed delimiting feature in the user adjustable menu.

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      01-18-2009, 03:23 PM   #20
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Quote:
Originally Posted by shiv@vishnu View Post
If this is truly a concern for anyone, it's easy enough just to either not go above the factory speed limit or disable the speed delimiting feature in the user adjustable menu.

Shiv
please show me how...
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      01-18-2009, 04:51 PM   #21
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Quote:
Originally Posted by shiv@vishnu View Post
I really don't understand what I am/or have been avoiding. Also, there is no "gear reading". It would have to be calculated from RPM and vehicle speed captured in a snap shot at the moment when a code is triggered. So one would effectively be solving a 3 variable equation with only 1 known value. Hardly conclusive at the Puma level. If this is truly a concern for anyone, it's easy enough just to either not go above the factory speed limit or disable the speed delimiting feature in the user adjustable menu.

Shiv
I'm sorry but call me an ignorant skeptic.

I have a difficult time imagining that if the engine throws a code or limp mode, that something as fundamental as what gear you are in at the time is not recorded.

Some of us drive the steptronic AT and we know for a fact that we cannot accidently choose a gear that would cause the engine to over-rev. That tells me that the DME is monitoring what gear you are in at all times and whether a chosen dowshift is plausible or not. If it's not plausible it won't let you.

But please, can you provide the evidence that your knowledge of fasta data recording is based upon when you state that only rpm and mph is recorded?

Are you really that fully informed about how BMW stores those codes and the sets of associated raw data.

It's kind of like the X-files...."I want to believe" what you say so why not show it in black and white?
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      01-18-2009, 06:16 PM   #22
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Quote:
Originally Posted by john08135i View Post
please show me how...
Do you have v3? If you look at the user adjustable page, there is a parameter that enables/disables the speed delimiter. 0 turns it off. 1 turns it on (speed limiter defeated).

Shiv
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