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      02-22-2009, 01:28 PM   #1
rushbmw
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For handling, Staggered or non Staggered Rims?

Well, I've been looking on online as too why most people choose staggered rims over non staggered. When it comes to handling it seem to me that non staggered rims set with the same tires size around all four corners would yield the most balanced handling. It would also allow you to get the most from your tires when it comes to wear as you can rotate. So can someone convince me it would be better to stagger rims when it comes to handling.
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      02-22-2009, 02:02 PM   #2
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I'm not sure about any differences (I have only used the staggard set up). But if you look at most of the high performance cars in the world, they almost always have staggard tires...so there must be a reason for it. I would also imagine that they are an attempt to get more rubber on the rear tires.
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      02-22-2009, 02:08 PM   #3
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When the E36 M3 was introduced, it had a non-staggered setup. So many people managed to spin them off the road (not the car's fault, IMHO) that they "fixed" it for 96. Instead of 235 all around, they went to 225/245, along with some other changes to make it more idiot proof. With the 135, they've taken it to the extreme with these silly 215s up front. I haven't tried it yet with a square setup, but I suspect the understeer issue will be significantly reduced, if not eliminated. 245/40-17 is where I'm headed.
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      02-22-2009, 09:22 PM   #4
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If you don't do much driving at the limit, then it probably does not matter much either way. Maybe the ideal would be wide enough up front to have neutral steering and wide enough in back to make it hard to break loose. What those sizes are I don't know.

I am personally trying to find another set of rear 128i sport wheels/tires so that I can run 225 all around on 17x7.5" wheel and have the convenience of a symmetric set. It should also help the understeer which is probably bad with 205's up front (though I have not really had a chance to push it much yet... we will see how auto-x goes)
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      02-22-2009, 10:07 PM   #5
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I would think the non-staggerd set up would provide less understeer because it provides less traction for the rear wheels.
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      02-22-2009, 10:27 PM   #6
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gtaday51 View Post
I'm not sure about any differences (I have only used the staggard set up). But if you look at most of the high performance cars in the world, they almost always have staggard tires...so there must be a reason for it. I would also imagine that they are an attempt to get more rubber on the rear tires.

Most of those high performance cars in the world are also, mid engine, rear engine, and have 500+ hp and require a wider tire in the rear to handle the extra load of the motor being back there, as well as to be able to put any type of power to the ground.

From my personal experience with my e36 m3 track car I much prefer the square setup as it does help to eliminate the understeer and make the car more neutral or slightly over. The other huge benefit is tire rotations. My 1 is on order and when it gets here I am going to run either 18x8.5 all around 245/35 or 18x9 with 255/35's on all 4 corners.
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      02-22-2009, 10:29 PM   #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HighQ View Post
I would think the non-staggerd set up would provide less understeer because it provides less traction for the rear wheels.

Your not actually providing less traction in the rear, your just adding more traction to the front which will increase the traction at the front of the car and cause the rear to exit the friction circle before the front creating a more neutral car that tends to oversteer more. Other huge thing, is it now allows you to drive the car with the throttle on corner exit and make it easier to rotate in a corner.
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      02-22-2009, 10:38 PM   #8
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When I track my car I personally use a square setup with identical wheels and tires to...
1) reduce understeer (more rubber and wider track)
2) maximize tire wear
...and it works.

On the street I'll stick with the staggered setup because I do not drive hard enough on the street to care. At safe speeds the car is rather neutral. It's when you push it it pushes back.
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      02-22-2009, 11:12 PM   #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HighQ View Post
I would think the non-staggerd set up would provide less understeer because it provides less traction for the rear wheels.
FAIL

Quote:
Originally Posted by drivrswntd View Post
Your not actually providing less traction in the rear, your just adding more traction to the front which will increase the traction at the front of the car and cause the rear to exit the friction circle before the front creating a more neutral car that tends to oversteer more. Other huge thing, is it now allows you to drive the car with the throttle on corner exit and make it easier to rotate in a corner.
QFT, Its all about balancing traction between the front and rear of the car...
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      02-23-2009, 06:28 AM   #10
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IMO and understanding the manufactures put a staggered set on a car to promote understeer as this is consider as safer the oversteer for the general punter.
I am no driving expert but I believe the opinion is with understeer if you take you foot off the gas the nose will grip up again and possibly avoid the accident, oversteer is much harder to correct.
I guess the other things to consider is the room under the guards and a stagger always looks good.
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      02-23-2009, 06:29 AM   #11
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IMO and understanding the manufactures put a staggered set on a car to promote understeer as this is consider as safer the oversteer for the general punter.
I am no driving expert but I believe the opinion is with understeer if you take you foot off the gas the nose will grip up again and possibly avoid the accident, oversteer is much harder to correct.
I guess the other things to consider is the room under the guards and a stagger always looks good.
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      02-23-2009, 10:52 AM   #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by m3bs View Post
I haven't tried it yet with a square setup, but I suspect the understeer issue will be significantly reduced, if not eliminated. 245/40-17 is where I'm headed.
That's what I'm running, with PS2s and stock suspension. Understeer just about gone (seems completely gone, but no way to measure it) and very happy with the results. No downside that I've seen.
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      02-23-2009, 12:25 PM   #13
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Glad too see other people have an interest in this. I would like to see if I could get 18x8.5 all around with 245/35/18's. I think other people have tried this and had some rubbing issues. With our cars being having almost 50/50 weight balance. A set like this should yeild a neutral handling car.
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      02-23-2009, 02:55 PM   #14
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Hey,

245/35 all around should not be an issue at all. I think as long as your running -2 up front you'll be ok. TC Kline's car has 245/35/18 Hoosier's on it all around.



and Bimmerworld ran 18x9 DForce's with 255/35 PS2's on it for the One Lap 135i.
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      02-23-2009, 03:42 PM   #15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by drivrswntd View Post
Hey,

245/35 all around should not be an issue at all. I think as long as your running -2 up front you'll be ok. TC Kline's car has 245/35/18 Hoosier's on it all around.



and Bimmerworld ran 18x9 DForce's with 255/35 PS2's on it for the One Lap 135i.

Does anyone know where the rubbing occurs when running 245/35/18 up front. Is it on the fender, the strut, the inner wheel lining?
Isn't Neg 2 camber impossible with the stock suspension. I'm taking it will need camber plates just to run this set up on the stock suspension.
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      02-23-2009, 05:03 PM   #16
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I have 8.5" breytons at et48 and 245x35x18 tires. With stock suspension, the tires will rub the fender. More neg camber and they will only rub the liner. At about -2 neg camber it clears everything. This setup also requires at least a 5mm spacer to clear the strut. I'm using a 10 mm spacer because I intend to run 255's when my 245's are retired.
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      02-23-2009, 05:04 PM   #17
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And yes you will need camber plates to create the neg camber required.
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      02-23-2009, 09:20 PM   #18
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rcracer_tx View Post
FAIL



QFT, Its all about balancing traction between the front and rear of the car...
Agreed, but is providing more grip to the front not the same as less for the back when you are speaking in relative terms?
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      02-23-2009, 09:41 PM   #19
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Quote:
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Agreed, but is providing more grip to the front not the same as less for the back when you are speaking in relative terms?
Not exactly, if you take grip away from the back then you are dropping the cars overall handling abilities by reducing the maximum amount of grip the rear of the car can handle. If you were to leave the back alone, but add more grip to the front, you are therefore increasing the cars overall traction abilities and not loosing any of your performance.
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