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      06-15-2010, 08:44 PM   #23
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bradleyland View Post
The question is, where do we go from here? What other manufacturer will step up?
P car is the next up and Audi for the wife/people mover
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      06-15-2010, 09:03 PM   #24
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bradleyland View Post
The question is, where do we go from here? What other manufacturer will step up?

I'm not sure honestly. Porsche still certainly designs with the enthusiast in mind, but damn they're charging a premium for it. Ford and GM both have some solid offerings in the "bang for the buck" catagory, but I'm not a huge fan of the overstated styling on the muscle cars, or the seating position on the Vette (which I might be able to overlook).

There are a limited number of choices out there for an enthusiast car that balances a certain level of comfort and refinement with a true sporting nature.

I feel like the 1 Series is the best BMW has to offer right now in that respect but it could certainly be better (and maybe the M1 will be), and the rest of the lineup is heading in the wrong direction.
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      06-15-2010, 09:32 PM   #25
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BMW Sport and Efficiency

Here are my 2 cents worth:

The 3 cylinder will not come to the US for a looong time. We'll be lucky to even see one turbo'ed 4. For my part I was excited to see the EPA rate the new 538i at 21 city/32 highway. Those are better numbers for more horsepower than the outgoing model, so no tears coming from me on that.

I will admit I don't "get" the FWD thing.

I wonder if the 3 cylinder is going to be used to "offset" the 13mpg guzzlers that have been mentioned. I am not sure if European regulations look at fleet averages, but if so, then these small engines probably being added to help the overall average.

I too am dismayed by the size and weight of current BMWs. My new 3 series is the size of my old 5 and my new 1 is the size of my last 3 and even larger than my first 3. I just don't get the obsession with large cars. In particular I was surprised to see 6 variants of the upcoming 6 series coupe/convertible, all of which will have big engines. That just seems nuts. I know the largest profit margins come from large and powerful cars, so maybe that is it??

Also I think everyone is overlooking one undeniable fact. Electric cars, done right, can be a real sports cars, not just "sporty" cars. The Tesla roadster has awesome 0-60 times and the weight can be positoned superlow on such a car with all the batteries at the bottom of the chassis.

I would not despair on sporty cars - they will still be available, albeit you may be driving an old gasoline car, a turbo'ed diesel or electric.

Also BMW will drag its feet as much as possible on any downsizing in the U.S. market. Look for a new sub-brand, like Mini. Europe is a different story, obviously...

Cheers!
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      06-15-2010, 10:55 PM   #26
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Originally Posted by npd2983 View Post
Also I think everyone is overlooking one undeniable fact. Electric cars, done right, can be a real sports cars, not just "sporty" cars. The Tesla roadster has awesome 0-60 times and the weight can be positoned superlow on such a car with all the batteries at the bottom of the chassis.
No doubt the performance can be there. But It still won't work for me. Not until they can figure out how to get 300-400 miles on a charge and then let me recharge in 5 minutes. Have to get to the fun roads.
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      06-15-2010, 11:07 PM   #27
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Originally Posted by jeremyc74 View Post
I'd agree with you if it weren't for the fact that BMW is cranking out 450Hp, 5000lb SAVs left and right that get 13MPG.

BMW's current management has their heads up their asses. The fleet average wouldn't suck if it weren't for all the pigs they've introduced over the last couple of years.

They've lost the plot as far as I'm concerned. The company that used to build the "Ultimate Driving Machine" has turned into the "Ultimate Image Machine".

People "in the know" used to buy BMWs because of the way they handled and performed. Even the larger cars were special in their class. The general public didn't really understand all that, but they wanted to look like they did, so they followed along and that allowed BMW to continue building great driving cars for enthusiasts.

Now, they're abandoning the true performance enthusiast more and more with every generation, and catering more and more to the people who are just looking for brand cache'. It's getting to the point where it's hard for even long term, loyal enthusiasts to carry the torch without looking foolish, and they're moving on.

Eventually they're going to be left with nothing but the people who want the image.


All this marketing Bullshit needs to stop. efficient dynamics my ass
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      06-15-2010, 11:13 PM   #28
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Why are you guys crying so much about FWD? On the contrary, I feel really excited that may be BMW Engineers can teach how to build a better FWD car then the best in the market today. Give it a chance.

I am dreaming of a title in the next 5 years, "FWD 1er scored better N-Ring time then RWD 1er".. Don't say it is impossible. Personally, I'll feel super f.ing proud of the BMW brand if this happens.
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      06-15-2010, 11:58 PM   #29
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Slowly but surely, I see it coming ...

BMW is straying down the same path and heading in the same direction as Ford (with Mercury) & GM (Pontiac, Saturn, Hummer) did a few (oops ... many) years ago.

Brand basterdization & creation of garbage !

Keep going BMW, keep believing marketing & fan boys will help you turn poop into gold .

You've got a very good thing going (Mini, BMW & Rolls Royce) and some nice new design with Adrian VdH at the helm. But also, learn when to stop ... ideally before you hit the wall at 250mph
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      06-16-2010, 12:23 AM   #30
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Evice View Post
Why are you guys crying so much about FWD? On the contrary, I feel really excited that may be BMW Engineers can teach how to build a better FWD car then the best in the market today. Give it a chance.

I am dreaming of a title in the next 5 years, "FWD 1er scored better N-Ring time then RWD 1er".. Don't say it is impossible. Personally, I'll feel super f.ing proud of the BMW brand if this happens.
Despite some FWD cars being able to perform decently, it is difficult to fight the laws of physics which RWD will always have an advantage in. FWD is not a platform for a sporting car. It is one based on economy, and always will be.
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      06-16-2010, 12:34 AM   #31
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Future FWD 1-series models to be serious sporty cars

I am very puzzled to the reaction to FWD, perhaps we are more acceptable to small quality GTI,s and RS pocket rockets in Europe (look at the performance of some of the FWD cars in World Touring car championship).
BMW will produce dynamic lower end vehicles be it FWD, electric etc. and they will build stunning high end performance cars, M5,M3 etc. it will not dilute the brand or image.

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      06-16-2010, 12:40 AM   #32
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^^^ Well, even if FWD doesn't dilute performance (which I think it must, to some degree), it will certainly dilute the look. I don't think you can make a BMW look like a BMW without a proper RWD stance. Take a look at the GTI. Great car and very nice looking, but the front overhangs are awful.
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      06-16-2010, 01:17 AM   #33
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Evice View Post
Why are you guys crying so much about FWD? On the contrary, I feel really excited that may be BMW Engineers can teach how to build a better FWD car then the best in the market today. Give it a chance.

I am dreaming of a title in the next 5 years, "FWD 1er scored better N-Ring time then RWD 1er".. Don't say it is impossible. Personally, I'll feel super f.ing proud of the BMW brand if this happens.
What is the Mini Cooper S?

I dream of a day when all FWDs are melted down and replaced by e30 M3s.
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      06-16-2010, 02:02 AM   #34
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As BMW falls into the mainstream automotive manufacturer category in Europe, it has to reduce it's current fleet average of 170g/km of CO2 emissions to 130g/km by at the latest 2015, but perhaps by 2012, depending on what the European Parliament decides: http://www.energyefficiencynews.com/eu/i/1207/

Porsche may have partially escaped having to meet the 130g/km limit by becoming a VW subsidiary, but VW will now have a bigger problem averaging across their fleet, so Audi will probably have to take a bigger hit than BMW in reducing it's average emissions.

Bottom line is that you have to hope that BMW produces a lot of small efficient front wheel drive cars across their car lines, if you want to be able to purchase a less efficient RWD car from them in the future. For example the 118d manual is rated at 119g/km, a Mini Cooper S is 136g/km and a Mini Cooper D 104g/km, so many efficient FWD cars with small engines would have to be sold to offset the 198g/km that the 135i emits.

The EU is currently expecting car manufacturers to meet an average of 95g/km in 2020.
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      06-16-2010, 08:09 AM   #35
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Almost every post from the US, and my god I knew you guys were a bit disconnected and inward looking but this just takes the cake. Im glad that the rest of the world is willing to think outside the box and adapt rather than just throw temper tantrums.
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      06-16-2010, 09:10 AM   #36
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Quote:
Originally Posted by aerobod View Post
As BMW falls into the mainstream automotive manufacturer category in Europe, it has to reduce it's current fleet average of 170g/km of CO2 emissions to 130g/km by at the latest 2015, but perhaps by 2012, depending on what the European Parliament decides: http://www.energyefficiencynews.com/eu/i/1207/

Porsche may have partially escaped having to meet the 130g/km limit by becoming a VW subsidiary, but VW will now have a bigger problem averaging across their fleet, so Audi will probably have to take a bigger hit than BMW in reducing it's average emissions.

Bottom line is that you have to hope that BMW produces a lot of small efficient front wheel drive cars across their car lines, if you want to be able to purchase a less efficient RWD car from them in the future. For example the 118d manual is rated at 119g/km, a Mini Cooper S is 136g/km and a Mini Cooper D 104g/km, so many efficient FWD cars with small engines would have to be sold to offset the 198g/km that the 135i emits.

The EU is currently expecting car manufacturers to meet an average of 95g/km in 2020.
Why do you think BMW held onto the Mini? Expand the Mini Line. Get rid of the useless X5 and X6 and 7 and RR. Send more D to USA. Problem solved today.

Read any emails about global warming CO2 emissions requirements have nothing to do with the environment . It's all about Socialist consumption control for the mass pop.
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      06-16-2010, 09:14 AM   #37
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JB135MDCT View Post
What is the Mini Cooper S?

I dream of a day when all FWDs are melted down and replaced by e30 M3s.
Mini is a brand that has been "adopted" in a way by bmw. This will be purebred
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      06-16-2010, 09:33 AM   #38
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What I agree with:

Smaller engines. As technology advances, we can get smaller engines that produce more horsepower. More gas mileage, less CO2 emissions, etc. it's a win-win for everyone. I'm all for smaller engines as long as they keep the HP up. There's no reason why we shouldn't be getting away from big engines. Smaller and more powerful is the future. Less CO2 = better for our environment, less gas = better for our wallets, more power = more fun.

What I disagree with:

FWD. FWD blows. It's not fun, it has never really worked well for handling, and torque steer is beyond obnoxious. Look at the Focus RS. It has loads of anti-torque steer technology yet it still has torque steer. Why not RWD or AWD? BMW can make a 300HP 25 MPG 335xi, so what is to stop them from making an efficient AWD/RWD vehicle in this case? The EfficientDynamics philosophy rules, but FWD sucks.
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      06-16-2010, 10:18 AM   #39
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Why doesn't BMW just bring the 1er hatch to the states, brand it a mini and offer it with engines from the 116i up to the 123d? Ditch the x6 and the M versions of the Xs and the 6. Cafe problems solved
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      06-16-2010, 10:55 AM   #40
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I do agree that the global environment needs attention. If BMW is able to produce smaller (diesel) engines that still keep up, it's fine. I do like performance but I never had any problems driving aroud in my 118d hatch (E87). It has 130hp and performs well enough on the road.

It goes 125 mph, which is far above the allowed speed limit in most European countries and it gets to that speed with ease. It's no where going as fast as a sports car - but rest assured you're faster than 80% on the road. I know a fair few 120d cars that after a software update get above 200 hp... Some guys drive these cars here in Belgium on circuit and lots of other drivers are unable (or barely able) to keep up.

So smaller engine, good performance equals Freude am Fahren. However, every time I get into the car of my wife, I'm shocked by the horrible job it does to put down the 120 hp it has. So I can only imagine what +200 hp would do with such a car. Even with all the electronics etc. and besides the fact I was amazed by the Mini Cooper S JCW performance, I still had my doubt about FWD. It feels like I can't rely on it for safety. It's unpredictable, it's unsafe.

So I guess BMW is taking the "commercial" initiative - lots of people buy a BMW these days for the badge instead of the driving dynamics, the spirit of their cars. A lot of people even don't realize (apparently) that their BMW is RWD in the first place. In Belgium, lots of 1-ers are "leased", used as a company car. While I made my decision for a BMW based on my past experiences and the car itself, lots of people (incl. women) opt for this car because it has an interesting market value for leasing companies, so it is an interesting car to consider for a lease.

To that market, the FWD would be good thing. Cheaper cars, more room for options. But if I was BMW, I'd focus again on what matters. Offer the FWD for lower powered cars but allow people who want to, to choose for RWD as well on all models.

Oh and BMW, keep the RWD at the same price, will you?
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      06-16-2010, 11:22 AM   #41
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In the end, economics is always going to win out over enthusiests. It's actually why I drive a BMW now. When Honda decided to do nothing to replace the S2000, focusing on mass market econoboxes (all be it good ones), I made the switch to my 1.
Kind of glad I decided to buy, looks like I may be driving this car for a while.
In the end, I do believe BMW will always offer something for the pure enthusiest (M). The question will be, can I afford it.
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      06-16-2010, 12:10 PM   #42
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JB135MDCT View Post
Why do you think BMW held onto the Mini? Expand the Mini Line. Get rid of the useless X5 and X6 and 7 and RR. Send more D to USA. Problem solved today.

Read any emails about global warming CO2 emissions requirements have nothing to do with the environment . It's all about Socialist consumption control for the mass pop.
I agree with bringing more diesels to the US and there not being a need for the X6 even though it has created a new niche. But why would you get rid of the flagship 7, the X5 and Rolls Royce? Sure they are larger cars, but BMW wouldn't be building them if people didn't want them. Dropping them from the product line would only force customers to spend their money on cars like the A8, S class, Q7, M class, Cayenne, Flying Spur, or Maybach instead. Why would BMW want to give up that market share?
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      06-16-2010, 12:18 PM   #43
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Not sure if it's been stated yet, but one of the reasons for FWD is the extra room available at the rear of the car due to the lack of driveshaft, diff, etc. I would bet that one of the reasons that BMW uses RFT's is that it eliminates the need for a spare, increasing the available space for cargo. Even so, take a look at how much more room most 1- and 3-sized FWD cars have for the rear occupants and cargo.

Note that I'm not arguing for or against FWD, but I do think that BMW has more than a few reasons for pursuing it. I also believe that BMW will figure out how to make FWD cars feel like proper BMWs, just as they have done so for pretty much everything else they've developed.
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      06-16-2010, 01:23 PM   #44
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JasonCSU View Post
I agree with bringing more diesels to the US and there not being a need for the X6 even though it has created a new niche. But why would you get rid of the flagship 7, the X5 and Rolls Royce? Sure they are larger cars, but BMW wouldn't be building them if people didn't want them. Dropping them from the product line would only force customers to spend their money on cars like the A8, S class, Q7, M class, Cayenne, Flying Spur, or Maybach instead. Why would BMW want to give up that market share?
In the short term I agree.
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