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      06-16-2010, 12:40 PM   #45
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SkipSauls View Post
Not sure if it's been stated yet, but one of the reasons for FWD is the extra room available at the rear of the car due to the lack of driveshaft, diff, etc. I would bet that one of the reasons that BMW uses RFT's is that it eliminates the need for a spare, increasing the available space for cargo. Even so, take a look at how much more room most 1- and 3-sized FWD cars have for the rear occupants and cargo.

Note that I'm not arguing for or against FWD, but I do think that BMW has more than a few reasons for pursuing it. I also believe that BMW will figure out how to make FWD cars feel like proper BMWs, just as they have done so for pretty much everything else they've developed.
A FWD will never feel and balance like a RWD, This is why we buy BMWs. Everything else has been based on RWD based except for the mini. We don't like Audi/Subura/Mitsu because they are based on FWD config.

Now if only my 135 had M3 bushings?

Solution to FWD & MPG would go something like this.
1.) Build an E30 M3 with drivetrain of a 135, you get a true M3
2.) Build an e2? M1 with drivetrain of a 135, you get a true M1
3.) Offer I4 and I6 gas/diesel with turbo motor options.

Now if only I bought that e30 M3 shell when I had a chance.
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      06-16-2010, 12:43 PM   #46
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Anyone else think the next gen 1M/M1 will be FWD?
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      06-16-2010, 12:51 PM   #47
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Anyone else think the next gen 1M/M1 will be FWD?
No.
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      06-16-2010, 01:00 PM   #48
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ChrisK View Post
Anyone else think the next gen 1M/M1 will be FWD?
Quote:
Originally Posted by 123d View Post
No.
Please poll @ http://www.1addicts.com/forums/showthread.php?t=389203
so we don't get stuck with a FWD.
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      06-16-2010, 01:08 PM   #49
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http://www.1addicts.com/forums/showthread.php?t=389203 is alive, 60 to 62 in 4.6 seconds. Keep it comeing, Be-achMW need to get the message.

65, keep it going! We will discuss the other 2 later.
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      06-16-2010, 01:46 PM   #50
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I don't care what BMW does for all the eco tree huggers who want to claim to be sporty.

I'll still be buying a 3-series with a straight six for my next few cars. haha
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      06-16-2010, 01:48 PM   #51
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I'm waiting for the hovercraft M3. Screw FWD or RWD or AWD.
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      06-16-2010, 05:41 PM   #52
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"Sporty" doesn't mean "sport."

Like when you see a candy bar that says "chocolatey" on the wrapper, it means it doesn't qualify to be labeled as "chocolate" by the FDA. It's chocolate-flavored.

So a "sporty" FWD 1 series would be a sport-flavored car. Basically it might have firm seats and a deck wing.
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      06-16-2010, 11:56 PM   #53
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What people have to understand is that BMW has no choice in producing more efficient cars if it wants to remain a global manufacturer with somewhat competitive pricing.

This is due to the fact that current EU legislation mandates penalties for excess CO2 emissions starting in 2012 ( all the gory details are here: http://eur-lex.europa.eu/LexUriServ/...001:01:EN:HTML )

As the EU makes up most of BMWs market, they need to remain competitive by averaging 130g/km of CO2 across the whole fleet. They haven't got a hope by just producing efficient Minis and selling them in enough quantities to offset the other BMW model emissions, as competition from other manufacturers will limit this option. Basically the full force of the legislation will be in place by 2015, at that point every 1g/km the fleet average is above 130g/km will cost 95 Euros in fines per vehicle sold in the EU, so if their fleet average is at 170g/km (it's current average), then for every vehicle sold BMW will have to pay 3,800 Euros (about US$4,700). This will likely make them un-competitive relative to other manufacturers who do comply.

Consequently BMW will be stupid to commit economic suicide by abandoning their core market to cater only to the relatively few enthusiasts who still want cars with high emissions.

Porsche will likely have to go further upmarket in pricing if they can't average with the VW group ($10,000 on a Boxster, $20,000 on a Panamera is likely). Ferrari will be looking at $25,000 or so in fines per car, which their market will absorb.

Manufacturers will have to decide whether they will do everything to make their cars more efficient and meet the EU targets, or become a niche manufacturer that only sells low volume high end cars or in markets outside the EU, I believe BMW will pick the former choice.
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      06-17-2010, 08:01 PM   #54
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jason View Post
We previously reported that BMW will be introducing a front-wheel model for the next generation 1-series (in addition to traditional RWD models). The FWD 1-series models will likely be receiving 4-cylinder and 3-cylinder versions, leading some to lament that the FWD configuration along with a small motor points to these future models are being more about efficiency/budget than performance.

However, if Autocar's "sources" are to be believed, the future entry level 3-cylinder 1-series models are not considered as "entry level" models, but will serious, refined, sporting engined cars with great CO2 figures. We certainly hope this to be true and that BMW's sporty car philosophy continues throughout its future lineup.
In my opinion, BMW is known for rear drive cars. I will never buy a fwd BMW.

I'm sure there are plenty of people who only care about the BMW emblem on the hood and will be happy driving a fwd (and gutless) bmw.
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      06-17-2010, 08:05 PM   #55
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Quote:
Originally Posted by aerobod View Post
What people have to understand is that BMW has no choice in producing more efficient cars if it wants to remain a global manufacturer with somewhat competitive pricing.

This is due to the fact that current EU legislation mandates penalties for excess CO2 emissions starting in 2012 ( all the gory details are here: http://eur-lex.europa.eu/LexUriServ/...001:01:EN:HTML )

As the EU makes up most of BMWs market, they need to remain competitive by averaging 130g/km of CO2 across the whole fleet. They haven't got a hope by just producing efficient Minis and selling them in enough quantities to offset the other BMW model emissions, as competition from other manufacturers will limit this option. Basically the full force of the legislation will be in place by 2015, at that point every 1g/km the fleet average is above 130g/km will cost 95 Euros in fines per vehicle sold in the EU, so if their fleet average is at 170g/km (it's current average), then for every vehicle sold BMW will have to pay 3,800 Euros (about US$4,700). This will likely make them un-competitive relative to other manufacturers who do comply.

Consequently BMW will be stupid to commit economic suicide by abandoning their core market to cater only to the relatively few enthusiasts who still want cars with high emissions.

Porsche will likely have to go further upmarket in pricing if they can't average with the VW group ($10,000 on a Boxster, $20,000 on a Panamera is likely). Ferrari will be looking at $25,000 or so in fines per car, which their market will absorb.

Manufacturers will have to decide whether they will do everything to make their cars more efficient and meet the EU targets, or become a niche manufacturer that only sells low volume high end cars or in markets outside the EU, I believe BMW will pick the former choice.
What they should do is sell turbo cars with 5psi boost stock, then make it easy for people to "upgrade" after the car is sold. That would raise fleet mpg averages.
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      06-17-2010, 11:16 PM   #56
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Quote:
Originally Posted by crzy4135i View Post
What they should do is sell turbo cars with 5psi boost stock, then make it easy for people to "upgrade" after the car is sold. That would raise fleet mpg averages.
++++

Before FI, Harely owners through on pipes and a jet kit. Went from quiet 50mpg, to big balls 20%+ power and 40mpg.

Ferrari tried similar with 2 liter turbos ( think they were v12s).
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      06-17-2010, 11:34 PM   #57
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Quote:
Originally Posted by aerobod View Post
What people have to understand is that BMW has no choice in producing more efficient cars if it wants to remain a global manufacturer with somewhat competitive pricing.

This is due to the fact that current EU legislation mandates penalties for excess CO2 emissions starting in 2012 ( all the gory details are here: http://eur-lex.europa.eu/LexUriServ/...001:01:EN:HTML )

As the EU makes up most of BMWs market, they need to remain competitive by averaging 130g/km of CO2 across the whole fleet. They haven't got a hope by just producing efficient Minis and selling them in enough quantities to offset the other BMW model emissions, as competition from other manufacturers will limit this option. Basically the full force of the legislation will be in place by 2015, at that point every 1g/km the fleet average is above 130g/km will cost 95 Euros in fines per vehicle sold in the EU, so if their fleet average is at 170g/km (it's current average), then for every vehicle sold BMW will have to pay 3,800 Euros (about US$4,700). This will likely make them un-competitive relative to other manufacturers who do comply.

Consequently BMW will be stupid to commit economic suicide by abandoning their core market to cater only to the relatively few enthusiasts who still want cars with high emissions.

Porsche will likely have to go further upmarket in pricing if they can't average with the VW group ($10,000 on a Boxster, $20,000 on a Panamera is likely). Ferrari will be looking at $25,000 or so in fines per car, which their market will absorb.

Manufacturers will have to decide whether they will do everything to make their cars more efficient and meet the EU targets, or become a niche manufacturer that only sells low volume high end cars or in markets outside the EU, I believe BMW will pick the former choice.
Oh Canada, EU is digging their grave with unrealistic #s. Should I mention Lead in solder, stupid bulging hoods, socialism, theft, price of a liter gas, etc. Oh, and the price of liter of oil. Oh shoot, forgot about the VAT Tax for a 135. I love the people, culture and food of Europe, but the Socialists got to go, disease is spreading to the USA, with the help of Obama mama.

And your #s are exaggerated. Why would EU put their own company's out of business?
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      06-17-2010, 11:35 PM   #58
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JB135MDCT View Post
++++

Ferrari tried similar with 2 liter turbos ( think they were v12s).
are you talking about the TT V8 in the F40?
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      06-17-2010, 11:41 PM   #59
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are you talking about the TT V8 in the F40?
No, earlier 208 I think. V8 more likely
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      06-17-2010, 11:50 PM   #60
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JB135MDCT View Post
Oh Canada, EU is digging their grave with unrealistic #s. Should I mention Lead in solder, stupid bulging hoods, socialism, theft, price of a liter gas, etc. Oh, and the price of liter of oil. Oh shoot, forgot about the VAT Tax for a 135. I love the people, culture and food of Europe, but the Socialists got to go, disease is spreading to the USA, with the help of Obama mama.

And your #s are exaggerated. Why would EU put their own company's out of business?
The numbers are not exaggerated, they are from the EU legislation (did you read the document in the link I posted?) and the current g/km ratings for BMWs 2008 average fleet and values for Porsche and Ferrari cars that can be obtained from European manufacturers web sites.

Ford and GM and any other manufacturer selling cars in Europe will also be subject to the same fines if they don't meet the same legislation for cars sold in Europe.
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      06-17-2010, 11:59 PM   #61
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Advevo View Post
Bmw motorsport department went from 800 workers to 140.

Bmw wil be going further and further away from the sporty image it once had. It s no all about efficient dynamics.

Audi on the otherhand get more sportier everyday.
How did you get this 140#?

Audi gets more flashy every day, and that's about it.
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      06-18-2010, 12:08 AM   #62
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Quote:
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The numbers are not exaggerated, they are from the EU legislation (did you read the document in the link I posted?) and the current g/km ratings for BMWs 2008 average fleet and values for Porsche and Ferrari cars that can be obtained from European manufacturers web sites.

Ford and GM and any other manufacturer selling cars in Europe will also be subject to the same fines if they don't meet the same legislation for cars sold in Europe.
What's on paper today doesn't mean it will happen, when it comes to politics. How can auto manuf's respond that quickly?
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      06-18-2010, 12:41 AM   #63
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JB135MDCT View Post
What's on paper today doesn't mean it will happen, when it comes to politics. How can auto manuf's respond that quickly?
It has been in draft form for over 3 years and adjusted in 2007 from 120g/km to 130g/km by 2012. No court challenge by the manufacturers was successful in preventing it from coming in to law.

This is why Mercedes and BMW in particular are now scrambling to minimise the damage to their sales. Most other manufacturers are in better shape, this report from Aug 2008 summarises the manufacturer positions: http://www.transportenvironment.org/...nd_out/lid/513
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      06-18-2010, 04:42 AM   #64
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M1 will be a car for enthusiasts!
But it seems that BMW needs some fwd cars in their line up... I'm just curious how many will they sell... For sure they will have a market for these models too.. Everyone will choose the proper bimmer made to achieve a large spectrum of needs
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      06-19-2010, 05:28 PM   #65
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123d's motor in an E90 can become the $399/month badgewhore lease special for the 90% of Automatic Transmission and a Sunroof as the only options interchangeable customers in NA. 40 mpg and its still quick enough to not get run over. Problem solved

I want my 350i.

Granted our market doesn't mean much, my $41,000 E90 would cost about $90K in Europe. Even though that includes 30-35% to the government to pay for illegals healthcare and fonctionnaires who don't give a shit about anything but their cigarette break and their strike.
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      06-19-2010, 06:03 PM   #66
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Quote:
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What's on paper today doesn't mean it will happen, when it comes to politics. How can auto manuf's respond that quickly?
You don't know the EU.

It will definately happen.

The manufacturers have no choice in the matter, and the EU politians don't care, as most of them are anti-car anyway.
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