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      05-05-2013, 03:38 PM   #133
Dackelone
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Hi guys, just wondered why everybody is using the Redline stuff? I'm in the UKwhere temps vary between about -15 to +25 degrees centigrade through the year, so am unsure what to get. If I put my car details into my usual oil supplier it comes up with this: http://www.opieoils.co.uk/p-981-fuch...ion-fluid.aspx

What do you guys think? They also stock the Redline stuff.

Also, is this right for the diff?

http://www.opieoils.co.uk/p-737-cast...xo-75w-90.aspx

Thanks all!

The Castrol Syntrax Longlife 75W-90 (Formerly SAF-XO 75w-90) diff oil is Ok to use. SAF-XJ can be used where XO is spec'd but not vice versa.

I do not know about that Fuchs oil - for the manual trans. I did not see where it says its approved in BMW transmissions. But then again neither is Redline D4 or D6 ATF.

The only reason why I use Redline's ATF D4 is bc I have run it before for 200K kms in my old bmw's so I am comfortable running it in my 135i.
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      05-05-2013, 04:13 PM   #134
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If you click on"specs & approvals" it says:
BMW 2300 1434 404
BMW 2300 7533 513
BMW 2300 7533 818

Not sure what that means though.

Is there any benefit of using the XJ over the XO? I guess BMW must use the XO for a reason, otherwise they would just buy more bulk of the XJ and put it in everything if it was better.
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      05-05-2013, 04:23 PM   #135
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Originally Posted by TheRuss View Post
If you click on"specs & approvals" it says:
BMW 2300 1434 404
BMW 2300 7533 513
BMW 2300 7533 818

Not sure what that means though.

Is there any benefit of using the XJ over the XO? I guess BMW must use the XO for a reason, otherwise they would just buy more bulk of the XJ and put it in everything if it was better.
The XJ is a thicker gear oil. 75w140 - I believe.
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      05-06-2013, 09:02 AM   #136
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Im doing this today. Redline d6 and Redline 75-90 along with a carbon blasting with my home made set up. Hope to get it all done today!
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      05-06-2013, 04:22 PM   #137
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Carbon blasting? What, like the intake ports? Yikes, good luck doing it all in a day. Think it'd take me more than a weekend!

Dackel, what's the benefit of using a thicker diff oil? Surely the one statedb BMW for non-LSD diffs will be fine? If it's too thick I guess you'd have poorer protection in cold weather because it'd be too thick? Or maybe it'd cause additional drag on the gears lowering mpg?
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      05-07-2013, 10:44 PM   #138
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Carbon blasting? What, like the intake ports? Yikes, good luck doing it all in a day. Think it'd take me more than a weekend!

Dackel, what's the benefit of using a thicker diff oil? Surely the one statedb BMW for non-LSD diffs will be fine? If it's too thick I guess you'd have poorer protection in cold weather because it'd be too thick? Or maybe it'd cause additional drag on the gears lowering mpg?
Whooa! Got it done! Carbon blasting and Redline D6 in the trans. Nice smooth shifts. No noise. OEM oil had 52xxx miles on it. Looked like dirty engine oil. Waiting for my tool to get here to change the diff oil.
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      05-08-2013, 03:18 AM   #139
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Whooa! Got it done! Carbon blasting and Redline D6 in the trans. Nice smooth shifts. No noise. OEM oil had 52xxx miles on it. Looked like dirty engine oil. Waiting for my tool to get here to change the diff oil.
Good work - I didn't fancy the intake valve cleaning, so got BMW to do it. I just knew I'd screw something up, and it'd have taken me forever. My car is currently with BMW having the walnut shell blasting done.

They've given me a nice 320i X-Drive as a courtesy car though, which is pretty neat.

So what's the difference between the D4 and D6? I'm not sure which would be best for my climate, and if the thicker one would cause more drag and lower mpg and whp?
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      05-08-2013, 07:29 PM   #140
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I originally went with Redline D6 because thats what the latest update on their website stated. Transmission shifted much smoother and less notchy than stock fluid.

I have a SSK and I noticed my shifter would shake in 3rd gear ONLY when the car got warm. If the car was cold the shifter wouldnt shake in 3rd gear. This wasn't your typical shake, it was violent and Im sure overtime it might have popped out of gear.

I read that the Redline D4 is thicker oil, this past weekend I drained the D6 fluid and replaced it with D4. Now my shifter has much much less shake in 3rd gear. Gears are smooth as D6, only difference is once oil has warmed up.

I believe anyone in warmer climates should get the thicker D4 oil.
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      05-08-2013, 10:11 PM   #141
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Why do people like redline? It's sold to the segment. With claims of use of stouter add packs and exotic base oils, theoretically it is more stable and better performing. It hasn't exactly been my finding (other lubes are quieter in the LSD in my E30, and other MTLs perform better, longer in its gearbox. Their oils don't meet the BMW or API specs, and some recent tests even showed poor foaming performance in their engine oils.

Why a heavier/lighter lube? Well for LSDs, a BMW TSB from a while ago specced XJ as the best lube and for use in LSDs. If one desires to stray from the 140wt lubes, keep in mind that the API designation of 90wt was cut in half and the 110 designation was subsequently created. So a 90wt is a fairly light lube at this point, as the. Iscosity range for 90wt lubes was effectively cut in half. A good 75w-110 like amsoil svg would be a good compromise.

D4 vs D6? D4 was a product intended for use where dexron III fluids were specced. Dex III is no longer a valid spec, so technically there is no such thing as a Dex IIi fluid, since GM no longer licenses that. Dex VI is the replacement for ATF, and Redlines D6 product is for that. Now Dex VI is not approved by GM for MT use. I'd personally not be comfortable running the dex VI add pack in an MT without specific OEM approval. Dex VI is a much lower viscosity but much more shear stable ATF, but with different overall lube design. Dex VI is "thinner" than new dex III fluid, but dex IIi shears down rapidly to a lower viscosity. Still, I'd not be inherently trusting of the dex VI chemistry for synchros and elastomers until it is well proven. To date it is really anecdotal evidence with fairly low accrued miles.

I'd be comfortable changing diff lubes, but not necessarily MTFs.
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      05-08-2013, 10:54 PM   #142
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It hasn't exactly been my finding (other lubes are quieter in the LSD in my E30, and other MTLs perform better, longer in its gearbox.
Which oils did you find better for your gearbox, and how was this determination done vs. RL and/or other oils ?

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Originally Posted by JHZR2 View Post
Now Dex VI is not approved by GM for MT use. I'd personally not be comfortable running the dex VI add pack in an MT without specific OEM approval.

I'd be comfortable changing diff lubes, but not necessarily MTFs.
Just to clarify: Since BMW spec'ed the LT-03 for MT's - which is an ATF, and this Dex VI seem an ATF pretty darn close to LT-03, why would this not work in an MT ? (not that I plan to use it, but trying to understand your point).
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      05-09-2013, 04:04 AM   #143
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Originally Posted by JHZR2 View Post
Why do people like redline? It's sold to the segment. With claims of use of stouter add packs and exotic base oils, theoretically it is more stable and better performing. It hasn't exactly been my finding (other lubes are quieter in the LSD in my E30, and other MTLs perform better, longer in its gearbox. Their oils don't meet the BMW or API specs, and some recent tests even showed poor foaming performance in their engine oils.

Why a heavier/lighter lube? Well for LSDs, a BMW TSB from a while ago specced XJ as the best lube and for use in LSDs. If one desires to stray from the 140wt lubes, keep in mind that the API designation of 90wt was cut in half and the 110 designation was subsequently created. So a 90wt is a fairly light lube at this point, as the. Iscosity range for 90wt lubes was effectively cut in half. A good 75w-110 like amsoil svg would be a good compromise.

D4 vs D6? D4 was a product intended for use where dexron III fluids were specced. Dex III is no longer a valid spec, so technically there is no such thing as a Dex IIi fluid, since GM no longer licenses that. Dex VI is the replacement for ATF, and Redlines D6 product is for that. Now Dex VI is not approved by GM for MT use. I'd personally not be comfortable running the dex VI add pack in an MT without specific OEM approval. Dex VI is a much lower viscosity but much more shear stable ATF, but with different overall lube design. Dex VI is "thinner" than new dex III fluid, but dex IIi shears down rapidly to a lower viscosity. Still, I'd not be inherently trusting of the dex VI chemistry for synchros and elastomers until it is well proven. To date it is really anecdotal evidence with fairly low accrued miles.

I'd be comfortable changing diff lubes, but not necessarily MTFs.
Hi JHZR2, thanks for the alternative viewpoint on this. I too was questioning in my head why everyone just defaults to the Redline fluids. It seemed odd to me that fluids for auto boxes were being used in MTs when MT specific lubes are available. Out of interest, do you have a background in this area, as you seem to have a much better understand than me.

Any idea if this would be a better fluid to go for? It's recommended by the place that I buy my fluids from, although admittedly this is only from putting my car details in on their website, so not a direct recommendation from an actual person.

http://www.opieoils.co.uk/p-981-fuch...ion-fluid.aspx

Also, what do you suggest for the OEM 135i (open) diff? Castrol have two fluids - and people seem to be opting for the LSD-specific fluid, despite having an open diff. I don't really understand why, especially when Castrol also offer an open diff-specific fluid as well. This one:

http://www.opieoils.co.uk/p-737-cast...xo-75w-90.aspx

Fuchs also make a gear oil that can be used in the diff - same brand as the MT oil:

http://www.opieoils.co.uk/p-983-fuch...-gear-oil.aspx

Not sure if these would be better options for the diff?
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      05-09-2013, 04:15 AM   #144
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Originally Posted by SfValley335i View Post
I originally went with Redline D6 because thats what the latest update on their website stated. Transmission shifted much smoother and less notchy than stock fluid.

I have a SSK and I noticed my shifter would shake in 3rd gear ONLY when the car got warm. If the car was cold the shifter wouldnt shake in 3rd gear. This wasn't your typical shake, it was violent and Im sure overtime it might have popped out of gear.

I read that the Redline D4 is thicker oil, this past weekend I drained the D6 fluid and replaced it with D4. Now my shifter has much much less shake in 3rd gear. Gears are smooth as D6, only difference is once oil has warmed up.

I believe anyone in warmer climates should get the thicker D4 oil.
Hmm, that's interesting, and makes me weary of picking the wrong fill. Though I suppose that's why I'm here researching it now. Would rather get the right fluid on the first go. I also have the SSK, plus the BMW clutch stopper and CDV delete, oh and the M3 gearbox mounts. However, even with all these little mods the shifting is still notchy and I can't get a good quick shift from 1st to 2nd. Also my car sometimes decides it doesn't want to go into first, which is frustrating at a set of lights, as it requires letting the clutch back out and then putting it back in before it lets me select first.

I'm hoping that fresh fluid would help with this and prove to be a very worthwhile "mod" (or routine maintenance to any petrolhead).
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      05-09-2013, 05:45 AM   #145
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      05-09-2013, 10:08 AM   #146
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Hmm, that's interesting, and makes me weary of picking the wrong fill. Though I suppose that's why I'm here researching it now. Would rather get the right fluid on the first go. I also have the SSK, plus the BMW clutch stopper and CDV delete, oh and the M3 gearbox mounts.
I have the CDV delete and the Performance SSK - and I use Redline D4 ATF in my manual trans. So far for almost 45K kms with no problems. I recommend the D4.


Quote:
However, even with all these little mods the shifting is still notchy and I can't get a good quick shift from 1st to 2nd.
No fluid will fix a mechanical problem like worn syncros. My trans also has a notchy 2nd gear... it really doesn't bother me too much. Our car's aren't built for 0-60 runs. But rather speed and curves.

After I first changed my trans fluid to MTF-LT-4, I did not notice any difference in shift smoothness. In fact I say it got a little bit worse when cold. I then switched to Redline ATF D4... I did notice far lighter shifter effort and a smoother opperation from gear to gear.


Quote:
Also my car sometimes decides it doesn't want to go into first, which is frustrating at a set of lights, as it requires letting the clutch back out and then putting it back in before it lets me select first.
This to me sounds like your clutch is not fully disengaging. Here is a test to tell... next time it happens at a traffic light (car not moving), with your foot on the clutch(foot down) and your right hand trying to engage 1st gear... with your left hand... reach over to the start/stop button and switch the engine off. Does the shifter go into first just as the revs fall stop? Then it is your clutch hanging up. You need a new clutch and you need to have the tran's input splines cleaned thoroughly with a wire brush.


Quote:
I'm hoping that fresh fluid would help with this and prove to be a very worthwhile "mod" (or routine maintenance to any petrolhead).
Changing the trans fluid can not hurt matters. You have everything to gain and not much to loose. Of course if your trans is still under warranty just let your dealer order a "fresh one" and have them replace all the clutch parts while they are in there. Also that pesky rear main seal that seems to go bad on a lot of 135i's, I would have that replaced too.

Dackel
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      05-09-2013, 10:30 AM   #147
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Pesky rear seal?

I don't think the clutch is gone... car only has under 38k miles on the clock. Just needs the clutch to be released and then pushed back in and the gear works fine. Lots of cars do this when trying to get into reverse, but mine just seems to do it occasionally when trying to get into first. Maybe because I sometimes don't apply my handbrake or brake in traffic, so the car might roll a bit after I stop... I dunno. Think it's just something it does. Also my previous car (a Mazda) had a stiffer 1st-2nd change from brand new, so I think again, it's just part of how the gearbox is. I'm just hoping that new fluid will help things slightly.

The shifter on my Mazda was a lot more direct because the transmission was right under your arm and the stick went straight into it, so I think I was spoilt with that. Also it seems much easier to make a smooth shifting tranny for cars with less power.
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      05-09-2013, 03:11 PM   #148
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Originally Posted by DaanBMW View Post
Which oils did you find better for your gearbox, and how was this determination done vs. RL and/or other oils ?



Just to clarify: Since BMW spec'ed the LT-03 for MT's - which is an ATF, and this Dex VI seem an ATF pretty darn close to LT-03, why would this not work in an MT ? (not that I plan to use it, but trying to understand your point).
The box in my 318i carries a spec for ATF as the MTL. ATFs are inherently a compromise, given weak EP and AW adds. Many, many folks use redline MTL, as I did as well.

But the Redline lost shift quality (notchiness, 1st gear engagement, etc.) after about a year of use. It would be noticable in cold weather (as one would expect). I since moved to Amsoil MTF, which is a 5w-30 type (slightly heavier than ATF, like Redline MTL, for better protection), and the shift quality has stayed consistent, even with more driving the last few years, indefinitely.

As is known on the 318i LSD (slightly smaller than the E30 325 diffs), the bearings get noisy. Running a blend from Specialty Formulations has kept the diff quiet in a real, noticable way as compared to running Redline 75w-90 and w-140 lubes.

Is this scientific? Not really, but we are starting to see that Redline engine lubes are failing some oxidation and foaming tests, so the ester baestock may not be all it is sold to be in non-racing applications. Weve seen redline get chewed up and spat out in Audi RS4 applications and other DI applications. While shear stable, we also can see some nasty wear metal loads in RL lubes used in engines in non-racing apps. Engine isnt the same as diff, but I dont hold a ton of faith in their lubes for all applications at this point. Too many personal and testing clues.

Regarding Dex VI vs III and the fact that the BMW lube is an ATF, well, the reality is that GM specs either synchromesh or their Dex III fluid for MTs, not Dex VI. Dex VI has not been licensed for MT use, and while perhaps it will be adapted, it is a variation on standardizd Dexron III type ATF chemistry. Besides being a more shear stable base lube with a far lower viscosity, the add chemistry differs, and synchros arent necessarily the same as AT clutch packs. Id want to be VERY sure that there is compatible chemistry there...
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      05-09-2013, 03:17 PM   #149
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After I first changed my trans fluid to MTF-LT-4, I did not notice any difference in shift smoothness. In fact I say it got a little bit worse when cold. I then switched to Redline ATF D4... I did notice far lighter shifter effort and a smoother opperation from gear to gear.
Have you run an oil analysis of virgin D4 and LT-4 fluids? Id be interested. The viscosities or other characteristics could be vastly different. 46k miles isnt enough to really have a statistically significant indication that the lube is OK to run for the long run.

D4 is likely the "right" lube, as it has closer to GL4 additization with the right frictional characteristics for synchronizers in MTs.

ATFs tend to be a bit weak and a bit light for optimum protection. If I was going aftermarket, Id probably use a more midrange lube for added protection, even if giving up a bit of shift feel. Remember that the gearbox on the N54/55 isnt rated for much more than 300 lb-ft of torque, so youve given up most of the over-engineering that one could.

As far as MTLs go:

Current MTL GL4 viscosities are:

1. ATF viscosity Series; 6.5 to 8.5 cSt (Equivalent ATF viscosity; Note: ATF additive package is weak compared to most GL4's)

2. Synchromesh viscosity Series; 9.3 - 9.6 cSt (such as Amsoils MTF, Texaco's MTL, Pennzoil's Synchromesh, GM and Chrysler's Synchromesh)

3. 75W85 viscosity Series; 9.8 to 11.5 cSt ( Redline's MTL, RP's Synchromax LT, Nissan's MTL, Honda MTL, Castrol Syntorq LT)

4. 75W90 viscosity Series; 12.8 to 14.5 cSt (Amsoil's MTG, Redline's MT-90).


Plenty to read here:
http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/forums...Number=1231182

And here:
http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/forums...Number=1782680

If you are interested. Also, this comes from prior issue (2006) of GM Techlink service news and it may applicable to current models.


Quote:
This information applies to 2007 and prior GM passenger cars and trucks.

Dexron III is being phased out as a product name. It is being renamed Manual Transmission Fluid and carries p/n 88861800 U.S. (88861801 Canada).

If fluid p/n 88861800 U.S. (88861801 Canada) is not yet available when servicing a manual transmission or transfer case, Dexron III can be used in its place.

DO NOT use Dexron VI in place of manual transmission fluid in any manual transmissions or transfer cases that specify Dexron III, as a failure may result."
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      05-09-2013, 05:54 PM   #150
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Wow! That's a lot of info. Any suggestions on a good fluid for the 6MT in my 135i then? It's a 2009 N54 if that makes any difference...
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      05-09-2013, 11:36 PM   #151
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Thumbs up D4 FTW

I've been thru this debate & reading & changing too many times now... I was pretty determined to use Red Line MTL... Then I started charting all the damn tranny oils out there. The RL D4 stood out because of it high viscosity index: 198 (this is telling you how well the oil keeps its viscosity over the temperature range). Most are quite bit less stable: RL MTL is 183, M1 ATF is 176, Fuchs Titan Sintofluid is 175, Mobil1 Dex VI is 145, a.s.o.

Torn between the MTL and D4, today I asked RL and (1) they said I should change more gradually from the LT-3/D6 ATF not jump to the MTL, and (2) that they do not recommend mixing MTL with D4 ATF (I wanted to do it in lieu of using straight ATF in a MT... I just don't like the idea). So D4 will go in ! I'll report the results. Mind you I'm at 86k+ miles so probably even olive oil would help at this point (the extra virgin kind, lol).

Oh and I also have this issue of not engaging properly in 1st gear every so often. I am aware of the test with shutting the engine down while it's happening, but I don't think that is realistic: when you're a stop light the last thing you want to do is delay your start even further by now turning our engine off. At home or side street yes, but at a traffic light ? It's just not predictable enough to be done when not in traffic.

I'll have to see if this and a bunch of other things I'm doing while installing an LSD (replacing guibo & center support brg) will do anything towards solving this really ridiculous issue in a bimmer. (My 2001 VW shift way better @ 140k miles)
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      05-10-2013, 03:10 AM   #152
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I've been thru this debate & reading & changing too many times now... I was pretty determined to use Red Line MTL... Then I started charting all the damn tranny oils out there. The RL D4 stood out because of it high viscosity index: 198 (this is telling you how well the oil keeps its viscosity over the temperature range). Most are quite bit less stable: RL MTL is 183, M1 ATF is 176, Fuchs Titan Sintofluid is 175, Mobil1 Dex VI is 145, a.s.o.

Torn between the MTL and D4, today I asked RL and (1) they said I should change more gradually from the LT-3/D6 ATF not jump to the MTL, and (2) that they do not recommend mixing MTL with D4 ATF (I wanted to do it in lieu of using straight ATF in a MT... I just don't like the idea). So D4 will go in ! I'll report the results. Mind you I'm at 86k+ miles so probably even olive oil would help at this point (the extra virgin kind, lol).

Oh and I also have this issue of not engaging properly in 1st gear every so often. I am aware of the test with shutting the engine down while it's happening, but I don't think that is realistic: when you're a stop light the last thing you want to do is delay your start even further by now turning our engine off. At home or side street yes, but at a traffic light ? It's just not predictable enough to be done when not in traffic.

I'll have to see if this and a bunch of other things I'm doing while installing an LSD (replacing guibo & center support brg) will do anything towards solving this really ridiculous issue in a bimmer. (My 2001 VW shift way better @ 140k miles)
Great info - thanks for that Dan. Maybe I'll go with the D4 as well then. Any idea how well it should protect at temps below freezing? We've just got out of a stupidly long winter here in the UK, so cold temp performance is a concern of mine.
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      05-10-2013, 08:18 PM   #153
DaanBMW
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Originally Posted by TheRuss View Post
Great info - thanks for that Dan. Maybe I'll go with the D4 as well then. Any idea how well it should protect at temps below freezing? We've just got out of a stupidly long winter here in the UK, so cold temp performance is a concern of mine.
Can't tell what you've got, MT or AT ?

If you're worried about low temps, then D6 is thinner, Brookfield@-40C of 45 Poise . In an MT I personally still wouldn't use it, I think it's way too thin. Given some of the stuff I read - RL MTL used in MT's w/ no problems in temperate climates - D4 is thin enough.

Oh and one interesting thing: I noticed the specs on the RL "C+ ATF". It's a Cinderella oil: visc values fairly close to D4 (maybe a small-bit thinner at higher temps while still a bit thicker then D6) but with a VI=213 (!) and a Brookfield@-40C of 38 Poise (lower then even D6). At least on paper this oil looks great. Here's what RL said when I raised it as an option: "You nailed it. But if you don't do one specific to that market, folks won't buy it. Unfortunate and close overlap. The difference couldn't be spotted in wear or performance. I wouldn't bother as it is not distributed as well."
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      05-10-2013, 11:01 PM   #154
Dackelone
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TheRuss View Post
Great info - thanks for that Dan. Maybe I'll go with the D4 as well then. Any idea how well it should protect at temps below freezing? We've just got out of a stupidly long winter here in the UK, so cold temp performance is a concern of mine.
Like I said, I have been running the RedLine ATF-D4 in my manual 135, N54 trans...

The coldest it has gotten around here in Germany(where I live) was about minus 12' C. The trans shifted fine. I will say you could tell the trans oil was thick(slightly higher effort for the first few gear changes). But it shifted fine.

Btw... the hottest it gets here is about 34'C in the summer time. But normally we are in the 27's' C range. Again the trans shifts fine in those temps.

I think changing one's trans fluid every ~30K miles is normal. I do not believe in "Life Time" fluids.
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