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      08-11-2010, 07:53 PM   #23
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Originally Posted by R1100S View Post
Let me just add a little addendum to my above post:

Now that we have the 550i as a "kid hauler", I don't see the need for the double cab Tacoma anymore.

I'd love to see a solution to the HPFP problem in the x35i series cars (N54/N55).

The 135i is the successor to my dream car (E46 M3). You know....that car that you REALLY wish you could afford in your mid-late 20's but just can't. But now you're in your mid-30's and need a slightly more modern version of your dream car?

I see the 135i as a reincarnation of the M3's of yesteryear....and I want one.
I wouldn't go that far. With no LSD, crappy tires and mediocre suspension, it's far from being called a "successor" to the E46 M3. The 1M coupe is another story.
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      08-12-2010, 01:49 PM   #24
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Originally Posted by GaryS View Post
LOL I think half the people who claim they switched from MT to DCT really switched from AT.
I wonder how many of them actually use the manual modes.
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      08-12-2010, 03:47 PM   #25
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JasonCSU View Post
I wonder how many of them actually use the manual modes.
I wonder how many people with MT rev-match their downshift. 100% of DCT owners do :P

But seriously, doesn't matter what transmission you own, there are going to be people who have it for a different reason.

Some buy a MT for street cred, they will engage the clutch every time they push the brake pedal down, they won't rev match anything unless its by accident. They will make fun of their friends who auto cross in their automatic.
Some DCT owners will be scared the first time they kickdown. They might freak out if they accidentally go into manual mode and it holds a gear into high revs. They will still poke fun at slow 0-60 times for the MT.
And some turbo vert owners don't take the engine up high enough to hear it.
There are always going to be A->B drivers (you've heard it, "My car is the thing that gets me from point A to point B"), and there are always going to be drivers who take the road less traveled just because it has more turns

Last edited by Xylarax; 08-12-2010 at 03:49 PM. Reason: sp
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      08-12-2010, 04:01 PM   #26
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Originally Posted by Xylarax View Post
I wonder how many people with MT rev-match their downshift. 100% of DCT owners do :P

But seriously, doesn't matter what transmission you own, there are going to be people who have it for a different reason.

Some buy a MT for street cred, they will engage the clutch every time they push the brake pedal down, they won't rev match anything unless its by accident. They will make fun of their friends who auto cross in their automatic.
Some DCT owners will be scared the first time they kickdown. They might freak out if they accidentally go into manual mode and it holds a gear into high revs. They will still poke fun at slow 0-60 times for the MT.
And some turbo vert owners don't take the engine up high enough to hear it.
There are always going to be A->B drivers (you've heard it, "My car is the thing that gets me from point A to point B"), and there are always going to be drivers who take the road less traveled just because it has more turns
x10

All these MT vs DCT threads and making fun of one or the other is childish at best. It's a matter of personal preference and each have their pros and cons. I autocross my daily driver 135i. To me, DCT is the perfect transmission. The Autocross courses in Hawaii have limited space and are much tighter and more technical than most mainland courses I've seen on youtube videos. The DCT allows me to concentrate more on my driving line while giving me full control of what gear I'm in and making those shifts perfectly every time. Also with the DCT, I use my left foot to brake making the braking <> accelerating shifts quicker than if I had to use my left foot for the clutch.

Will I go back to driving a manual? No. I enjoy driving, but I can accept that the computer is better than me and have no problem taking full advantage of it. Is the 6MT "more fun"? Possibly, but it depends on your personal definition of fun. The 6MT is more involved, the DCT allows the driver to concentrate on other aspects of driving to go faster.

Will the 6MT go away? No, it's still the most popular transmission across most of the world. It's simpler to produce, cheaper, and a lot of drivers like it. Will DCT fans go back to the 6MT? Maybe some will miss the involvement, others like me will embrace the technology.

I probably enjoy the DCT so much because I'm young (22) and grew up playing Gran Turismo and other PC racing sims in online racing leagues and competitions before I could see over the dashboard and reach the pedals in a full-size car.
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      08-12-2010, 09:42 PM   #27
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MarkR171 View Post
x10

All these MT vs DCT threads and making fun of one or the other is childish at best. It's a matter of personal preference and each have their pros and cons. I autocross my daily driver 135i. To me, DCT is the perfect transmission. The Autocross courses in Hawaii have limited space and are much tighter and more technical than most mainland courses I've seen on youtube videos. The DCT allows me to concentrate more on my driving line while giving me full control of what gear I'm in and making those shifts perfectly every time. Also with the DCT, I use my left foot to brake making the braking <> accelerating shifts quicker than if I had to use my left foot for the clutch.

Will I go back to driving a manual? No. I enjoy driving, but I can accept that the computer is better than me and have no problem taking full advantage of it. Is the 6MT "more fun"? Possibly, but it depends on your personal definition of fun. The 6MT is more involved, the DCT allows the driver to concentrate on other aspects of driving to go faster.

Will the 6MT go away? No, it's still the most popular transmission across most of the world. It's simpler to produce, cheaper, and a lot of drivers like it. Will DCT fans go back to the 6MT? Maybe some will miss the involvement, others like me will embrace the technology.

I probably enjoy the DCT so much because I'm young (22) and grew up playing Gran Turismo and other PC racing sims in online racing leagues and competitions before I could see over the dashboard and reach the pedals in a full-size car.
It is true that it is personal preference.
Enthusiasts are always concerned about accel times and how fast a particular car will go. But, it's also true that people don't buy the fastest car they can afford. People buy what enthuses them, even if it's faster or slower.

It used to be that MT's were the fastest way to go in most cars.
Technology has changed that.
Now we also see that it's not just the all out speed that interests people in a particular car.

The step 135i and the MT are both equally fast in acceleration.
So, it's obvious that those who chose MT's are not doing so because they are faster. Now comes the DCT which is faster than the MT, and still some people don't want them. They can appreciate the technology and how fast acceleration can be, but it's a personal choice on how one wants to get their acceleration.

There are distinct differences, and that leads to distinct choices.
Wanting automatic functionality has it's benefits for sure, and people shouldn't be knocked for that choice, especially considering the vast improvement in overall performance. The step and DCT have brought true performance to the enthusiast driver who doesn't want to have to shift manually, all the time. I for one can't find fault with that in light of the extremely impressive performance of these automatics.

As well, DCT and step drivers need to respect manual drivers and their choice. After all, the step and DCT exist because enthusiasts and engineers kept working on a way to achieve manual like performance in an automatic/automated transmission, and they have succeeded.
The historically better performance of a manual trans is what drove the auto trans technology to the level it is now, and it will get even better.
If all enthusiasts were happy with typical slushbox performance, then the step and DCT wouldn't have been needed.

For us manual lovers, there simply are some control and feel aspects that even the best dual clutch transmissions can not give. It comes down to that man/mechanical interaction of physically moving and engaging pedals and levers to extract the performance. It's physical, and offers a feel that automation can't give. You can understand it, experience it, accept it, or continue to argue against it with all manner of numbers and stats. But, there is an unmeasurable and unquantifiable aspect to driving a manual.
You either get it or you don't. But, at least respect it.

I'm seriously considering a DCT in my new car. I may find that I don't like it and miss the interaction of man and machine that a manual still offers.
Still, I wont' mind trying it out.
I've got 2 more years of testing before I have to decide.

Last edited by RPM90; 08-12-2010 at 11:36 PM.
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      08-12-2010, 10:30 PM   #28
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RPM90 View Post

For us manual lovers, there simply are some control and feel aspects that even the best dual clutch transmissions can not give. It comes down to that man/mechanical interaction of physically moving and engaging pedals and levers to extract the performance. It's physical, and offers a feel that automation can't give. You can understand it, experience it, accept it, or continues to argue against it with all manner of numbers and stats. But, there is an unmeasurable and unquantifiable aspect to driving a manual.
You either get it or you don't. But, at least respect it.
I've tried countless times to explain the above sentiment to others, only to get blank stares in return. Perhaps I have not been so eloquent. Thanks for the above.
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      08-12-2010, 10:30 PM   #29
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Only speaking for myself when I say I'm so relieved that I got the manual. After hearing about how great the DCT was, I almost gave in and accepted the idea that a clutch pedal was a thing of the past.

Was actually leaning to the DCT, but right before I put in the order, I drove them both back to back. Knew right then that I would regret it if I didn't have the involvement and control of the drive train that's so much a part of performance driving.

Maybe someday I'll be forced to go to a DCT, but in the meantime I find it more fun to try and execute those shifts smoothly, the old fashioned way!
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      08-12-2010, 11:31 PM   #30
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Quote:
Originally Posted by maxnix View Post
I think that is precisely the attraction of DCT, that it yields the same direct control of the engine's power as a manual with no torque converter modulation. The latter is not so bad for a turbo charged motor as the Converter's slip allows RPM to stay in the power curve during shifts. The fact that DCT also offers automatic up and down shifting is just an added benefit, much welcome in real world traffic or even fast paced driving. The split second shifting is the key benefit, along with precise RPM matching.
I have to disagree on the comment regarding "same direct control....".
Allow me to explain. And correct me if I misunderstood your comment.

For me the the appeal of the DCT is that it is a manual clutched trans, which gives that more "direct connection" to the engines output.
With that you also have a more manual like gear change, as it doesn't use valve bodies and fluid to execute gear changes.
So, in terms of "feel" for that particular part of a DCT, yes it is like a manual, and that appeals to me.

However, you do not get the same direct control of the clutch engagement, as it is automated and executed by the trans computer. Also, you don't get the same control while executing a gear change, because in a manual you directly control how much slip the clutch will get for a particular shift with your foot, and you directly control that clutch action along with the throttle application as they work together.
Further, with your hand you move the shift lever as it directly controls the shift fork as it engages the gear you want.
In a DCT all of that is executed for you, though quite quickly and precisely.
The execution of a shift/downshift is amazingly smooth and quick, and appealing. But, it is not direct to the driver.

There is an appeal there for the manual driver as there is a more direct feel in power engagement, but that is more a function of the system actually using a clutch instead of a torque converter.

In the overall shift, however, the driver only 'asks' for a gear change, he doesn't execute it like he does in a 3 pedal manual.
You may move a lever or push a paddle, but that only sends a signal to the trans computer that you want an up or down shift, and from there it executes the mechanical action to give you want you're asking for.
That's why to me a step or DCT is not "direct" or the same.
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      08-13-2010, 12:35 AM   #31
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Guys driving Japanese cars don't think about those issues....anyhow my take is that if you look on vortex you'll see a lot of folks who regretted their DSG purchase. I wouldn't mind owning a DCT 135I but it would have to be my daily driver.
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Its because a lot of BMW owners are housewives or business professionals and know little about cars other than BMW's are a status symbol in their own circles so that have to have one. But exotic car owners know cars, that's why they are willing to spend for a killer car and they know something different when they see one.
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      08-13-2010, 09:13 AM   #32
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Originally Posted by RPM90 View Post
I

There is an appeal there for the manual driver as there is a more direct feel in power engagement, but that is more a function of the system actually using a clutch instead of a torque converter.

.

I totally agree with this. And I've found my enjoyment for the manual is not just driver involvement with aggressive driving, but just tooling around town, it just makes it more interesting. When I had my C6 Corvette, I really enjoyed going 3/4 throttle in first to about 1k below the red line, then taking a sort of slow shift into the second and blasting away from there.
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      08-13-2010, 09:41 AM   #33
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GaryS View Post
LOL I think half the people who claim they switched from MT to DCT really switched from AT.
That would be pretty sad ... and silly. I made the switch and am thrilled with the DCT. That being said I'll hold my opinion on this for another year or so because I will always appreciate the "difference" in fun factor between the two transmissions. But I guess there is a reason why no one wants to go back to the Fred Flinstone (the only true manual) transmission ... though some would say they miss the fun of developping callouses on those big fat toes.
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      08-13-2010, 11:37 AM   #34
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Originally Posted by schmeah View Post
I made the switch and am thrilled with the DCT. That being said I'll hold my opinion on this for another year or so because I will always appreciate the "difference" in fun factor between the two transmissions.
Well, I test drove a GTI with a manual and one with their dual clutch trans. I really did prefer the manual. However, I don't think a test drive is enough experience to make a definitive judgment for ones self. If I had several weeks with a dual clutch, I might have a different opinion.

Where you initially impressed with DCT to buy it, or was it something you wanted to try, and have enjoyed it more as time goes on?
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      08-13-2010, 11:58 AM   #35
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Xylarax View Post
I wonder how many people with MT rev-match their downshift. 100% of DCT owners do :P

But seriously, doesn't matter what transmission you own, there are going to be people who have it for a different reason.
Good point, and I certainly attempt to rev-match my downshifts. I've often thought how my track times could improve or become more consistent if I were using a DCT, but I still believe I experience more all around enjoyment with the 6MT. Like you said, people choose and enjoy their transmission for different reasons. For those of us who enjoy the 6MT, I think RPM90 said it best:


Quote:
Originally Posted by RPM90 View Post
For us manual lovers, there simply are some control and feel aspects that even the best dual clutch transmissions can not give. It comes down to that man/mechanical interaction of physically moving and engaging pedals and levers to extract the performance. It's physical, and offers a feel that automation can't give. You can understand it, experience it, accept it, or continue to argue against it with all manner of numbers and stats. But, there is an unmeasurable and unquantifiable aspect to driving a manual.
You either get it or you don't. But, at least respect it.
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      08-13-2010, 12:43 PM   #36
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Originally Posted by Hops128i View Post
Well, I test drove a GTI with a manual and one with their dual clutch trans. I really did prefer the manual. However, I don't think a test drive is enough experience to make a definitive judgment for ones self. If I had several weeks with a dual clutch, I might have a different opinion.

Where you initially impressed with DCT to buy it, or was it something you wanted to try, and have enjoyed it more as time goes on?
I wouldn't compare the DSG in the GTi to the DCT in the 135i. When I test drove a DSG GTi, I wasn't impressed with the system. The shifts were lightning fast both up and down, but what annoyed me was I noticed a slight delay on activating upshifts. I would pull the paddle, then there would be a half second delay before the actual shift. The shift was quick, but that delay was annoying. I don't get that delay in the DCT on any shifts and that's what makes it a lot more enjoyable, to me.

To answer your question, I originally wanted to order a 6mt. I decided to order the DCT after driving a Cayman S equipped with PDK. I was really impressed with dual clutch transmissions after driving the PDK car. The DCT isn't quite as good as the PDK, only because the PDK's "Sport Plus" mode is a lot better than the DCT's S+Sport Button, but in manual modes, both are equal.
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      08-13-2010, 12:57 PM   #37
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Originally Posted by maxnix View Post
Michael Schumacher did not drive a manual in his work car, nor probably in his 599.
I don't think Ferrari even builds manual transmissions anymore.

edit: They don't.
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      08-13-2010, 01:26 PM   #38
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I've been wondering, if part of the issue is age. Young people being more willing to try new things. But someone here mentioned "It would have to be my daily driver" and I think that is a great point, but also an odd one.

I am at a place in my life where I can only afford one car, and this tore me apart. I want to have a MT for when I want it, but I wanted the DCT for all those other reasons, and I live near Seattle and nobody wants to drive stop and go in a manual downtown (HILLS) for an hour if they can avoid it.

For that reason I think for many the DCT has to be the daily driver, but for people who can only afford one vehicle, it makes it much harder for that vehicle to be the DCT. That's why if someone asks me to be the Designated Driver, I only say yes if they drive a manual
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      08-13-2010, 03:25 PM   #39
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MarkR171 View Post
I don't think Ferrari even builds manual transmissions anymore.

edit: They don't.
That's not entirely true. You can still get a traditional manual in the 599 GTB and California, while the 458 Italia is only available with a DCT.
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      08-13-2010, 04:23 PM   #40
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hops128i View Post
Where you initially impressed with DCT to buy it, or was it something you wanted to try, and have enjoyed it more as time goes on?
I ordered it before they had any available to test drive. I had tried one on the new EVO and was impressed by the immediate upshifts, though the EVO had the Turbo lag that I was not used to on my 335i 6MT coupe. Anyway, I like to try new things every now and again ... and I do like playing Gran Tourismo. Click click vroom vroom.
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      08-13-2010, 04:29 PM   #41
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Quote:
Originally Posted by schmeah View Post
I ordered it before they had any available to test drive. I had tried one on the new EVO and was impressed by the immediate upshifts, though the EVO had the Turbo lag that I was not used to on my 335i 6MT coupe. Anyway, I like to try new things every now and again ... and I do like playing Gran Tourismo. Click click vroom vroom.
I like playing Gran Turismo too. But I like playing with a 6 speed manual.

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      08-13-2010, 06:27 PM   #42
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Originally Posted by Xylarax View Post
nobody wants to drive stop and go in a manual downtown (HILLS) for an hour if they can avoid it.
I have never felt that way. I always prefer MT - downtown, hills, whatever. MT makes dull driving a little less dull.
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      08-13-2010, 06:52 PM   #43
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Like driving a Lexus, huh? All visual, no feel.
Actually the force feedback in today's game wheels probably provide more steering/road feedback than a lexus.
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      08-13-2010, 09:04 PM   #44
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Quote:
Originally Posted by maxnix View Post
You are correct, but you presume clutch slippage is a good thing. Only full engagement or disengagement is a good thing for performance and clutch life.

Don't get me wrong, I love a manual for many of the same reasons you do. But I had to concede the DCT was better 99.99% of the time, especially in shift timing and in always flawless engagements, although one can come close on the latter, but cannot shift as quickly. Frankly, I was a little sad, but I had seen the future and had to swallow my pride and 6MT ambitions and acknowledge the superiority of BMW's implementation of the DCT.

Curse you BMW! But thank you too for such a great implementation!
You won't get argument from me on how good these dual clutches trannies are, and their overall performance speaks for itself.

My point is about the manual experience, in term of driver interaction in comparison.

I don't want to debate the issue, but clutch slippage and it's use is part of driving a manual. And, knowing how to use it is part of the interaction.
Using it correctly is a good thing. Best example is proper launch from standstill. Perhaps you don't like the term "slip"? We can use modulate.
However, proper modulation sometimes requires a proper amount of clutch slip.
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