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      08-17-2010, 02:13 PM   #67
MarkR171
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Quote:
Originally Posted by radiantm3 View Post
I've been reading a lot over on M3Post and I've noticed a whole lot of threads on people not understanding what DCT is doing in certain situations or acting like expected. That alone would drive me nuts. The DCT computer is programmed to react a certain way in various conditions but it doesn't read the driver's mind. It might be fast, but I'd rather the transmission do what I want it to do over ignoring my request and doing something else because it thinks it's more efficient or safer.
That's why you put it in M and shift it yourself.

Yes, it shifts at red line and at ~1000rpm, but why would you ever let it go to red line or below 1500rpm? Power falls before red line and there is plenty of power in the lower RPMs so there's no reason not to shift earlier.
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      08-17-2010, 04:22 PM   #68
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I've had my DCT for just under two months, so maybe things will change, but I've never once been surprised by its choices.

I agree that there are still a lot of people who don't know what the DCT does and make assumptions. It is never going to guess what you want it to do, it wasn't designed for that. It was designed to respond to the inputs you give it, just like any controller in a video game. Maybe some would think I got an especially clairvoyant DCT from BMW, and that's why I've yet to be surprised. The reality is, you gotta learn the inputs.
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      08-18-2010, 07:44 AM   #69
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I recently took a 135i DCT for a test drive and was already scratching my head at some of the shifts it did. Honestly, it's probably doing it to either be more efficient or placing the revs into a beefier part of the power band than I do myself when driving stick. So really it's just pointing out all my flaws as a manual driver and I hate it for that.

Seriously though, I'm very picky about when i shift, I love blipping the throttle, and if I have to pay more to always drive around with flappy paddles why not just get the free stick and pedal instead? Also, I'd miss scoffing at and looking down upon automatic drivers.
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      08-18-2010, 11:11 AM   #70
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Quote:
Originally Posted by radiantm3 View Post
I've been reading a lot over on M3Post and I've noticed a whole lot of threads on people not understanding what DCT is doing in certain situations or acting like expected. That alone would drive me nuts. The DCT computer is programmed to react a certain way in various conditions but it doesn't read the driver's mind. It might be fast, but I'd rather the transmission do what I want it to do over ignoring my request and doing something else because it thinks it's more efficient or safer.
The issues you talk about are based solely being in auto mode. When you paddle shift a DCT there is no issue relative to a 6MT.
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      08-18-2010, 11:14 AM   #71
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Originally Posted by Simsims View Post
i bet you choose big mac over spaghetti, too, because it's efficient, right?
I pick both beacuase the woman in my life and mexicans cook it for me. "D" stands for dinner.
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      08-18-2010, 11:15 AM   #72
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MarkR171 View Post
That's why you put it in M and shift it yourself.

Yes, it shifts at red line and at ~1000rpm, but why would you ever let it go to red line or below 1500rpm? Power falls before red line and there is plenty of power in the lower RPMs so there's no reason not to shift earlier.
Mark, Don't confuse the MTers with common sense.
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      08-18-2010, 11:18 AM   #73
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Schtuffy View Post
I recently took a 135i DCT for a test drive and was already scratching my head at some of the shifts it did. Honestly, it's probably doing it to either be more efficient or placing the revs into a beefier part of the power band than I do myself when driving stick. So really it's just pointing out all my flaws as a manual driver and I hate it for that.

Seriously though, I'm very picky about when i shift, I love blipping the throttle, and if I have to pay more to always drive around with flappy paddles why not just get the free stick and pedal instead? Also, I'd miss scoffing at and looking down upon automatic drivers.
You need to drive in M. Also you can put in N at any time. I still scoff at the slushers, you some reason to rap on the girls.
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      08-18-2010, 01:43 PM   #74
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JB135MDCT View Post
Mark, Don't confuse the MTers with common sense.
It's not the MTers that are confused. It's the DCT owners who are posting all the questions about why DCT acts funny.
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      08-18-2010, 01:49 PM   #75
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Originally Posted by radiantm3 View Post
It's not the MTers that are confused. It's the DCT owners who are posting all the questions about why DCT acts funny.
Who says the DCT acts funny? Mine works brilliantly. In Manual mode, it shifts when I pull the paddles instantly every time like clockwork. In sport auto mode, it's always in the perfect gear for my commute. It's flawless.

The only time it "acts funny" is if you were to floor the gas pedal from a dead stop in auto mode. It will hesitate for a split second, then take off. I'm not sure about you, but I don't know how often I need to floor it from a dead stop. The only time I can think of a reason to do that is for drag racing, which is lame for a car with good handling characteristics. Even then, you have access to launch control. The 135i, or any BMW for that matter, was not built to be launched and driven fast in a straight line for 1/4 mile.


Other than launching without launch control, the DCT does everything better than a 6MT. The driver has full control of the shifts in Manual mode just like a 6MT driver has. The only difference is the DCT driver doesn't need to mess with a clutch or take their hands of the steering wheel. For someone who tracks or autocrosses their car, that's an advantage as it allows easier left foot braking and makes steering in technical courses easier. Upshifts don't cause boost to drop and downshifts are perfectly rev matched every time. This is the reason many race cars today don't use manual transmissions with a clutch anymore.

The only advantage a Manual transmission has is the feel. The driver feels more connected, more "in control" because of the mechanical shift lever and clutch. For some drivers, that's enough to stick to a manual, for others, they want the DCT.

It's personal preference. I'll always like the DCT, RadiantM3 and others will always prefer a manual. Such is life.
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Last edited by MarkR171; 08-18-2010 at 02:00 PM.
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      08-18-2010, 03:24 PM   #76
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MarkR171 View Post
The only advantage a Manual transmission has is the feel.
For the sake of argument, I'll assume that the DCT shifts really are instant and smooth with perfectly predictable timing. People have been telling me that about the latest version of automatics for 40 years, but I will assume that this time it really is true.

But that still leaves skip shifting as an advantage over having to shift sequentially. I know DCT fans like to insist that having to shift sequentially is not a disadvantage, but if it really wasn't, they would not all end up resorting to automatic modes. Sequential shifting is okay for 200 mph, but ridiculous for daily driving. When I get off the freeway going home, I do not want to push some gay paddle four times or instead do nothing and let an automatic take over. Heel-toeing once into 2nd at the end of the ramp is perfect.
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      08-18-2010, 03:36 PM   #77
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I agree, people have been saying that about automatics for a long time, the problem is, with the conventional automatic, there is usually a long delay between pulling the paddle and the shift actually taking place. The DTC eliminates that delay so it does in fact become instant.

As for skip shifting, I'll give you that. If you feel that strongly about needing to do that then the 6MT is for you.
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      08-18-2010, 03:44 PM   #78
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MarkR171 View Post

The only advantage a Manual transmission has is the feel.
Don't forget about long term reliability. Sure, it's too early to tell what the reliability will be like on the DCT in the long run, but the fact remains that there is a simplicity with a traditional manual vs. a DCT. This probably doesn't bother most owners though, as it seems many owners don't keep their cars past the warranty and/or initial lease period.
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      08-18-2010, 04:01 PM   #79
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MarkR171 View Post
The only advantage a Manual transmission has is the feel.
$1,575 also strikes me as a significant MT advantage.

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      08-18-2010, 04:16 PM   #80
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Price and possibly reliability go to the MT, no argument there. I was talking about their function though, not their overall impact.
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      08-18-2010, 09:36 PM   #81
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fancyfl1ght View Post
A human being makes manual gear changes based on speed, rpms, clutch resistance and a gear shifter. This is a very analog method based on feel.

Sure there is great feel to a manual transmission. It would be a greater stretch to believe that the great feel of a manual transmission is necessarily efficient.

DCT has proven that it will out think and out play a human being.

Does DCT have a similar feel of a manual? No way. That is the sacrifice and the decision point people need to make.

I chose efficiency over feel. Others may differ.
No need to try and use diversion to try and prove your point.
I'm wasn't addressing "efficiency".

I was clearly addressing your assertion that MT drivers have some odd perception of being in direct control.
In fact, MT trans does give the driver direct control over the shifting process.

As far as the DCT being faster than a human, that wasn't a point I was not disputing.
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      08-18-2010, 09:38 PM   #82
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Simsims View Post
i bet you choose big mac over spaghetti, too, because it's efficient, right?


Wait.......what!?
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      08-18-2010, 09:52 PM   #83
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MarkR171 View Post
That's why you put it in M and shift it yourself.

Yes, it shifts at red line and at ~1000rpm, but why would you ever let it go to red line or below 1500rpm? Power falls before red line and there is plenty of power in the lower RPMs so there's no reason not to shift earlier.
On to a different aspect of this thread-JACK.
Well, one reason you would want to get near red line is due to gearing, and the advantage it can give to acceleration.

Just because power drops off, that doesn't mean acceleration is still not happening.
Sure, if you want to "feel" the big power on every shift you'll want to shift well before red line. But, that may not be the fastest method to achieve the fastest acceleration.

Example, our manual 135i hits about 106mph in 3rd gear.
So, if you're doing a 1/4 mile run for fastest time, you'll want to fully use 3rd gear and the engines ability to keep pulling to that speed for the fastest 1/4 before having to shift to 4th and lose time in the process.
You could shift early in every gear, but you'll be making a 4th shift to hit the end of the 1/4 in the fastest time.

In my 135i manual it feels fastest to 60 or 100mph when I shift each gear nearly to red, and feels powerful but slower if I shift around 6k where the dyno and butt show and sense a power drop.

But, I haven't done any official track 1/4 mile runs in my 135i t verify this, only going by engine speed, gear ratio, and tires. So, I'd welcome some manual 1/4 mile track guys to chime in and tell us where they shift for their fastest times.
I believe the DCT doesn't even hit 100mph in 3rd, as it's somewhere around 97mph at the top of 3rd.
Though my numbers could be off.

Last edited by RPM90; 08-18-2010 at 10:07 PM.
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      08-18-2010, 10:02 PM   #84
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Schtuffy View Post
I recently took a 135i DCT for a test drive and was already scratching my head at some of the shifts it did. Honestly, it's probably doing it to either be more efficient or placing the revs into a beefier part of the power band than I do myself when driving stick. So really it's just pointing out all my flaws as a manual driver and I hate it for that.

Seriously though, I'm very picky about when i shift, I love blipping the throttle, and if I have to pay more to always drive around with flappy paddles why not just get the free stick and pedal instead? Also, I'd miss scoffing at and looking down upon automatic drivers.
Remember the DCT "adapts" to the driver when it's in auto mode.
So, it'll use it's preset algorithms and adjust according to how the driver drives as best as it can.

In the analog world, manual drivers do that as well. I don't shift at exactly the same rpm in each gear either. Some days I'm more aggressive with throttle and shifts, some days I want a softer slower approach.
So, the driver adapts his shift style as well, except the driver can adapt quicker to his mood.

That doesn't make one type of tranny better than the other in a usable sense. Again, the manual is a different, albeit, the older approach to driving enjoyment.
It's too bad that people get so offensive about their transmission choice.
It's a CHOICE, and we're lucky to have it.
Some respect for people's choices would be very welcome here.
I don't see anyone bashing the DCT's performance abilities. But I read a few comments where DCT drivers themselves attribute negative comments to manual drivers, that the MT drivers never made in the first place. Just because some MT drivers would never get a DCT doesn't mean they are bashing it or making fun of it. It's just not for them.
Just like the MT may not be for others.
It's really that simple.
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      08-18-2010, 10:49 PM   #85
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RPM90;
Some respect for people's choices would be very welcome here.
I've been lurking here on this board for about two months, and only recently started posting, but if there's one observation I would make so far, it's that an awful lot of people who chose the DCT sure seem awfully defensive about their choice.

CERTAINLY not all, mind you, but it seems to be a common trait among many, and I guess I'm just curious as to why.

I personally could not fathom the thought of buying a BMW with fewer than three pedals, but I don't think it makes you a bad person if you disagree.

Why all the fuss?
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      08-19-2010, 10:21 AM   #86
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GatorVert View Post
I've been lurking here on this board for about two months, and only recently started posting, but if there's one observation I would make so far, it's that an awful lot of people who chose the DCT sure seem awfully defensive about their choice.

CERTAINLY not all, mind you, but it seems to be a common trait among many, and I guess I'm just curious as to why.

I personally could not fathom the thought of buying a BMW with fewer than three pedals, but I don't think it makes you a bad person if you disagree.

Why all the fuss?
Well, people that frequent message boards are usually enthusiasts, and the general consensus among enthusiasts is that stick = skill, joy, happiness, unicorns, and lollipops.

With DCT genuinely being faster, some people who want every last ounce of performance feel the need to prove they're not less skilled, and don't deserve less lollipops because of their choice. This is true, and I can't fault them. If I was hyper-competitive I'd want every edge available to me as well.

Then there are the people who previously held an inferiority complex over not being able to drive stick, gloating that they have the faster option now and manual is obsolete. These people get to me because secretly I think they might be right.

P.S. I was joking about thumbing my nose at auto drivers. I teach anyone that feels like learning manual at the cost of my own clutch and tranny. I have a friend from Denver coming over and he's dying to learn stick, but I fear for my STI's life as last time he visited my bimmer's window regulators and camshaft sensor all spontaneously combusted.
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      08-19-2010, 10:44 AM   #87
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The one thing about opinions is everyone has one, including me. Opinions are merely reflections of personal experience and resulting bias.

I've owned and driven more cars than I car to remember. Some of them really sweet and some of them crap. Sticks and autos.

For me (and me alone) DCT leaves every manual transmission I've driven in the weeds. Sure the 5-spd in my former M Coupe and in the Honda S2000 were very good. Really good. So was the 6-spd in my former 911 4S.

For how I drive, where I drive, what I want to focus on when driving and everything else DCT is the better solution. Sure, it has its quirks, it is not a 100% simulation of human-shifter-clutch-gas interaction. What I give up there, something that was never more than a mechanical skill to me, I get back in being able to be more intensely focused on the driving, the line I'm taking, etc.

For me DCT is the best way. For others they need to make up their own mind. My experiences and biases almost certainly do not apply.

If enjoying or preferring DCT makes me not an "enthusiast" on this board do you think I really care?
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      08-19-2010, 10:55 AM   #88
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I wonder how many people with MT rev-match their downshift
proud to say that i rev match almost every downshift i make!
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