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      08-19-2010, 12:22 PM   #89
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MarkR171 View Post
It's personal preference. I'll always like the DCT, RadiantM3 and others will always prefer a manual. Such is life.
I'll always like DSG/DCT. It simply can't be beat on a daily basis, because it's so flexible. If you get beat up at the office and are rendered flat-line brain dead, or just want to be a slacker you can put it in auto mode and let the computer shift for you. If you still have a detectible pulse and want an adrenalin rush, then the manu-matic mode is the drug of choice.

But what I found on extended spirited drives is flipping with the paddles in manu-matic mode gets old after a couple of hours. And after 3 years now it's almost flat played-out. It's like playing the same video game, over and over and over again. The high becomes not so high anymore.

Driving a manual on the other hand has always been a natural high. Even after 30 years (and many a crappy gear box) each experience is new. I somewhat recently test drove the new M3 with manual. In the short time during the drive I couldnít get used to the feather light clutch, and the fact the throws for the gears were literally in different zip codes. It was borderline embarrassing; the car bucked like a bronco more times than I can count. But it was still a kick, because it would have been another challenging gear box and skill-set to learn and get used to.

If the DSG in the GTI has some slag, the DSG in the R32 is rapier quick. The gear is instantly locked and loaded, with twin smoking exhausts when itís triggered. All that remains is to mat the throttle and watch the needles spin. I have no doubt I can jump in a 135 w/DCT and look like an FI driver (albeit one that is constantly a back-marker ) lickity-split. And even an outright abecedarian to the technology can pick it up in a lick or two later.

Once again, I am blessed to have both options. But if the day comes when I can only have one tool in the box it wonít be a contest as to what gets the go-to call.

So, for anyone that is old-school oriented and loves the control and freedom get the best manual gear-box kit BMW has produced in the past 20 years.

No guarantee you can say that when you come back in 3 - 4 years.
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      08-19-2010, 01:15 PM   #90
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Gary that was actually frustrating for me as well to get used to. This is only an issue when you are going from fast to turning at a signal, but I do what you say, I slow down from 7th gear to a reasonable speed, at which point I have to look to see what gear I'm in (it's really hard to count the downshifts when they occur at 1k rpm because you can barely feel them at all), usually I'm in 4th, so I smack the paddles twice.
After a while though you get used to it, you know what gear your car is in because you know how it responds to a situation.

Also, I would guess most people have made their choice before they even go for a test drive. This is why you don't see many DCT drivers being confused by their transmission's shifting, you see MT drivers reporting about their test drives. They don't plan on liking the transmission, and they need reasons to not like it.

I still don't miss the 3rd pedal, but I do miss playing with neutral at stop lights.
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      08-19-2010, 03:31 PM   #91
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Quote:
Originally Posted by and 1 View Post
proud to say that i rev match almost every downshift i make!
Same here. I had a bad synchro on an older car and double-clutch rev-matching was the only way to get clean downshifts. Because I was forced to use the technique all the time, it has become second nature. And there's not much more satisfying than hitting a perfect downshift rev match, especially right before a corner.
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      08-19-2010, 04:09 PM   #92
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Quote:
Originally Posted by IndyMike View Post
80% of those on this board that move from manual to DCT will be back to manual within 3 to 4 years.
I currently have an 08 GTI w/ a DSG and I am in the process of buying a 135i w/ a 6MT.

The DSG got boring after the initial neato factor wore off. Not to mention it is jerky in stop-and-go traffic. There is no doubt it's very cool technology and is probably the way of the future, but as long as I'm driving a performance car I want to row my own gears.
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      08-19-2010, 05:40 PM   #93
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GaryS View Post
For the sake of argument, I'll assume that the DCT shifts really are instant and smooth with perfectly predictable timing. People have been telling me that about the latest version of automatics for 40 years, but I will assume that this time it really is true.

But that still leaves skip shifting as an advantage over having to shift sequentially. I know DCT fans like to insist that having to shift sequentially is not a disadvantage, but if it really wasn't, they would not all end up resorting to automatic modes. Sequential shifting is okay for 200 mph, but ridiculous for daily driving. When I get off the freeway going home, I do not want to push some gay paddle four times or instead do nothing and let an automatic take over. Heel-toeing once into 2nd at the end of the ramp is perfect.
Lot's of DCT ignorance out there. Sequenbtial gear box, it is not. You can kick it from 7th to 2nd with ease or you can focus on braking and let S skip shifts for you ( less ideal while powering out of turn ). 2 footing is an art. Lots of fun.

Last edited by JB135MDCT; 08-19-2010 at 05:49 PM.
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      08-19-2010, 05:48 PM   #94
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Quote:
Originally Posted by radiantm3 View Post
Same here. I had a bad synchro on an older car and double-clutch rev-matching was the only way to get clean downshifts. Because I was forced to use the technique all the time, it has become second nature. And there's not much more satisfying than hitting a perfect downshift rev match, especially right before a corner.
Bad Synchro? How did that happen?
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      08-19-2010, 06:00 PM   #95
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^^ If you don't double-clutch when you should, the syncros wear. After enough wear on them, you will have to double-clutch. My 135i has really good syncros, probably the best in any car I've owned. So most people say they never double-clutch. But if you feel any resistance at all, it would have been easier on the syncros to double-clutch.
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      08-19-2010, 06:02 PM   #96
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GatorVert View Post
I've been lurking here on this board for about two months, and only recently started posting, but if there's one observation I would make so far, it's that an awful lot of people who chose the DCT sure seem awfully defensive about their choice.

CERTAINLY not all, mind you, but it seems to be a common trait among many, and I guess I'm just curious as to why.

I personally could not fathom the thought of buying a BMW with fewer than three pedals, but I don't think it makes you a bad person if you disagree.

Why all the fuss?
Lot's of insults thrown out by MTers, perhaps you have not read all the threads. You are quick to judge that we are defensive. Time will tell about DCT choice.
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      08-19-2010, 06:05 PM   #97
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GaryS View Post
^^ If you don't double-clutch when you should, the syncros wear. After enough wear on them, you will have to double-clutch. My 135i has really good syncros, probably the best in any car I've owned. So most people say they never double-clutch. But if you feel any resistance at all, it would have been easier on the syncros to double-clutch.
Yes, I know. Just pointing out that radiantm3 is not the perfect shifter he claims to be.
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      08-19-2010, 06:17 PM   #98
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JB135MDCT View Post
Yes, I know. Just pointing out that radiantm3 is not the perfect shifter he claims to be.
When did I ever say I was a perfect shifter? Never. Besides this was 10 years ago.
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      08-19-2010, 06:18 PM   #99
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Oh that's silly. Any kind of hard driving wears a car faster.




adding: oops, to be clear, I meant this is silly:

Quote:
Originally Posted by JB135MDCT View Post
Yes, I know. Just pointing out that radiantm3 is not the perfect shifter he claims to be.
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      08-19-2010, 06:21 PM   #100
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GaryS View Post
Oh that's silly. Any kind of hard driving wears a car faster.




adding: oops, to be clear, I meant this is silly:
Apparently, anyone who enjoys driving a manual over an auto is someone who claims to be a perfect shifter.
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      08-19-2010, 06:39 PM   #101
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JB135MDCT View Post
Lot's of insults thrown out by MTers, perhaps you have not read all the threads. You are quick to judge that we are defensive. Time will tell about DCT choice.
Emphasis mine.
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      08-19-2010, 07:55 PM   #102
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Quote:
Originally Posted by IndyMike View Post
I'll always like DSG/DCT. It simply can't be beat on a daily basis, because it's so flexible. If you get beat up at the office and are rendered flat-line brain dead, or just want to be a slacker you can put it in auto mode and let the computer shift for you. If you still have a detectible pulse and want an adrenalin rush, then the manu-matic mode is the drug of choice.

But what I found on extended spirited drives is flipping with the paddles in manu-matic mode gets old after a couple of hours. And after 3 years now it's almost flat played-out. It's like playing the same video game, over and over and over again. The high becomes not so high anymore.

Driving a manual on the other hand has always been a natural high. Even after 30 years (and many a crappy gear box) each experience is new. I somewhat recently test drove the new M3 with manual. In the short time during the drive I couldnít get used to the feather light clutch, and the fact the throws for the gears were literally in different zip codes. It was borderline embarrassing; the car bucked like a bronco more times than I can count. But it was still a kick, because it would have been another challenging gear box and skill-set to learn and get used to.

If the DSG in the GTI has some slag, the DSG in the R32 is rapier quick. The gear is instantly locked and loaded, with twin smoking exhausts when itís triggered. All that remains is to mat the throttle and watch the needles spin. I have no doubt I can jump in a 135 w/DCT and look like an FI driver (albeit one that is constantly a back-marker ) lickity-split. And even an outright abecedarian to the technology can pick it up in a lick or two later.

Once again, I am blessed to have both options. But if the day comes when I can only have one tool in the box it wonít be a contest as to what gets the go-to call.

So, for anyone that is old-school oriented and loves the control and freedom get the best manual gear-box kit BMW has produced in the past 20 years.

No guarantee you can say that when you come back in 3 - 4 years.
Well said, sir.
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      08-19-2010, 08:20 PM   #103
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GatorVert View Post
Emphasis mine.
Intelligent term yet not obvious? DCTers.
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      08-19-2010, 08:27 PM   #104
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Quote:
Originally Posted by radiantm3 View Post
When did I ever say I was a perfect shifter? Never. Besides this was 10 years ago.
Peace. All the respect to the double clutchers. Woe, that can go both ways.
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      08-19-2010, 10:08 PM   #105
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JB135MDCT View Post
Lot's of insults thrown out by MTers, perhaps you have not read all the threads. You are quick to judge that we are defensive. Time will tell about DCT choice.
Quote:
Originally Posted by GatorVert View Post
Emphasis mine.
Quote:
Originally Posted by JB135MDCT View Post
Intelligent term yet not obvious? DCTers.
My point was that it was you who used the term 'we.' You lumped yourself into the subset of DCTers whom I mentioned were defensive about their choice; I had not.

So does the shoe fit?
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      08-19-2010, 10:22 PM   #106
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ///M Rakete View Post
The one thing about opinions is everyone has one, including me. Opinions are merely reflections of personal experience and resulting bias.

I've owned and driven more cars than I car to remember. Some of them really sweet and some of them crap. Sticks and autos.

For me (and me alone) DCT leaves every manual transmission I've driven in the weeds. Sure the 5-spd in my former M Coupe and in the Honda S2000 were very good. Really good. So was the 6-spd in my former 911 4S.

For how I drive, where I drive, what I want to focus on when driving and everything else DCT is the better solution. Sure, it has its quirks, it is not a 100% simulation of human-shifter-clutch-gas interaction. What I give up there, something that was never more than a mechanical skill to me, I get back in being able to be more intensely focused on the driving, the line I'm taking, etc.

For me DCT is the best way. For others they need to make up their own mind. My experiences and biases almost certainly do not apply.

If enjoying or preferring DCT makes me not an "enthusiast" on this board do you think I really care?
See, your post seemed reasonable until that last comment.
I've been one of the more "vocal" people about this issue, and I've never said that a DCT driver is not an enthusiast, or is less of one.

Your comment demonstrates the defensiveness that goes on.
I think some are reading too much into certain comments, that is not there in the first place.
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      08-19-2010, 10:30 PM   #107
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Originally Posted by Xylarax View Post

Also, I would guess most people have made their choice before they even go for a test drive. This is why you don't see many DCT drivers being confused by their transmission's shifting, you see MT drivers reporting about their test drives. They don't plan on liking the transmission, and they need reasons to not like it.
I'm having trouble understanding your point there.
Can you clarify?

From what I can decipher, it seems you think that most DCT drivers are not being confused by their trans, but MT drivers are?

Your last sentence has me baffled. I don't get what you're trying to say.
Which "they" are you referring to?
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      08-19-2010, 10:59 PM   #108
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Originally Posted by JB135MDCT View Post
Lot's of insults thrown out by MTers, perhaps you have not read all the threads. You are quick to judge that we are defensive. Time will tell about DCT choice.
Really?
Please point them out.

There was one that I recall, but the poster said he was kidding in a later post.
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      08-19-2010, 11:20 PM   #109
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'Was admiring a very nice E46 6 sp man M3 cabriolet parked near me at the groceteria when this very elegant late 40s lady approaches, enters and drives off with style. 'Have seen her around the neighbourhood a few times.

When my wife and I split in '97 the first thing she (at 48) did was buy a new car, a loaded Civic coupe with a manual of course. In answer to my query as to why she preferred the manual she said, the automatics seem to make driving more complicated. Go figure!

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      08-19-2010, 11:46 PM   #110
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The Manual v DCT will rage on until the end of time.

Before the DCT and faster autos came along, there were always some manual drivers that would constantly rave on about how the manual was faster, that it was more involving, that it was more hardcore, I could go on and on. Those types were so passionate about letting the world know they drive a manual and went out of their way to put you down if you drove a slushbox. I hear it time and time again, if they don't make it in manual then I would rather drive whatever else. I never understood why, I put it down to an ego thing. Fair enough you love your manual but keep it in your pants.

Now the tides have turned. The DCT is without a doubt faster and better than the manual in every aspect that is performance related. The steptronic in its own right has proven to be consistently faster than the manual as well. Now I'm seeing some of the DCT drivers coming forward and giving stick to those hardcore manual fans and it is those passionate manual fans that don't know how to take it.

At the end of the day you're driving the same car and it's personal preference whether you drive a manual/step/DCT. You don't need to defend or justify your reasons why you chose it over the other because everyone is different. It's just another option that you tick off when you order your car.

Some of us chose to sacrifice some aspect of performance and structual rigidity so we could drive around with the top down. It wasn't my cup of tea but I don't go out of my way to put anyone with a convertible down, I appreciate what they have or keep it to myself because it doesn't affect me. I think Alpine White is the sexiest colour but I don't go around bashing 1ers in other colours. Anyways, I think that's enough with the examples.

I for one am a huge fan of the DCT and think it's a big step forward and I hope to have it on my next car. It has enough driver involvement for me and it is unbelievably quick. Everyone bought their car for different reasons and the transmission choice is no different.
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