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      12-11-2010, 04:00 PM   #463
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Quote:
Originally Posted by techthentic View Post
Why do people KEEP saying they'd rather slap on every available performance part on their 135i. I get that makes you feel better about yourself, but come on!
What is it about the monumental difference that a wider track, lsd, vastly superior suspension components and vastly superior brakes has on a car that people don't understand?!
You'd have to dish out HUGE amounts of cash to get the handling of the 135i anywhere close to the 1M!
Exactly! You can slap whatever part you want onto the 135 and it won't be a 1M. The same applies to the 335 vs M3 as we all know. Funny how many M3 owners defended this position against the 335 now take the opposite position when posting about the 1M, i.e. it's not a M because it doesn't have a high rpm NA engine, transplanted engine, blah, blah blah... Oh, the best is no carbon roof = epic fail. The only thing epic is the idiocy of some of these posts. Like saving 10+ lbs. from the roof is going to make driver "X" so much faster.

Great car considering its price point, great car price point aside.

Oh, oh, oh, I love the posts about rear valance design flaws. Yeah... like the M3 rear valance has excellent porportions; maybe to the vision challenged.
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      12-11-2010, 04:18 PM   #464
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Quote:
Originally Posted by M3 Adjuster View Post
It's really interesting to see all the " not enough power" comments, especially from current 135 owners..... who apparently must all be forgetting that of the 12 pre-drive winners, four of them already owned a 135... and none of them I know of came away saying that the 1M was down on power, or didn't offer a sizable peformance increase over their current cars.....
Maybe because the prototypes were turned up a hp or two. j/k
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      12-11-2010, 05:03 PM   #465
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i am just glad that bmw didn't do what nissan/nismo did and subaru/sti did on their super cars...how they are slower than their predecessors.
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      12-11-2010, 05:57 PM   #466
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Nice job Scott26 et al. I think it's beautiful; very aggressive. The orange looks fantastic. Would have been nice to see more interior/exterior color options, optional EDC, optional M DCT 7 speed, and optional sunroof (or CFRP roof), but I understand there are tight budget constraints.

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      12-11-2010, 07:49 PM   #467
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jraymond View Post
SAME BOOTLID AS 135I - TITANIC FAIL IMHO
yea thats just plain dumb..
i dont even wna start with how they left the hood,trunk, and even engine the same
the trunk was badly desighned as it is it needs to be csl style alittle more for it to even look proportinal..
i think they just need to let vorsteiner do a few minor alterations on that and the hood and noone would be able to resist buying that
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      12-11-2010, 08:50 PM   #468
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Quote:
Originally Posted by M3 Adjuster View Post
For those that have been waiting for an M car that is more true to what M originally was 25 years ago.... the 1M is a welcome breath of fresh air.
.
Well said.
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      12-12-2010, 04:07 AM   #469
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Quote:
Originally Posted by formula M View Post
@ the cost of durability and maintenance.

BMW has de-stressed the N54 and engineered better intakes, exhaust to garner the additional +50ft-lbs of torque in the is and 1M.

You mean current durability? Because I have yet to hear of a piggyback tuned N54 requiring any MORE maintenance than any other regular N54.

And are you saying that merely the "better" intakes and exhaust added 50/lbs of torque(catted as well)?????? Uhhh...no. The boost has been increased pure and simple to make the bulk of that extra torque.
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      12-12-2010, 05:37 AM   #470
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This photo was taken in SF city. Unless it's a complete photoshop, no one caught it during the take?

After some investigation, they did some major photoshopping. I believe the original photo was taken at Sansome and Pine. You can see California St. sign after Bank of Orient's sign. Match the location and perspective on Google map, they kept some of the original building structures, added some and modified others. A tell-tale sign comes from the stone works below the windows on left hand side. In Google street view you can see the same window but BMW photoshopped out rest of the window with the same brick pattern.

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      12-12-2010, 06:01 AM   #471
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Quote:
Originally Posted by M3 Adjuster View Post
LOL.. no doubt...

It's really interesting to see all the " not enough power" comments, especially from current 135 owners..... who apparently must all be forgetting that of the 12 pre-drive winners, four of them already owned a 135... and none of them I know of came away saying that the 1M was down on power, or didn't offer a sizable peformance increase over their current cars.....

For those that love their 135s... then by all means keep your current car.
For those with HIGHLY modified 135s.... you've already gone "ALL IN", and no one expects that you'll want to lose money on all that you've done already...

For those that have been waiting for an M car that is more true to what M originally was 25 years ago.... the 1M is a welcome breath of fresh air.
.
+10000000 well said...thank you very much!!!
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      12-12-2010, 09:26 AM   #472
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Quote:
Originally Posted by M3 Adjuster View Post
LOL.. no doubt...

It's really interesting to see all the " not enough power" comments, especially from current 135 owners..... who apparently must all be forgetting that of the 12 pre-drive winners, four of them already owned a 135... and none of them I know of came away saying that the 1M was down on power, or didn't offer a sizable peformance increase over their current cars.....

For those that love their 135s... then by all means keep your current car.
For those with HIGHLY modified 135s.... you've already gone "ALL IN", and no one expects that you'll want to lose money on all that you've done already...

For those that have been waiting for an M car that is more true to what M originally was 25 years ago.... the 1M is a welcome breath of fresh air.
.
Very well said
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      12-12-2010, 10:19 AM   #473
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      12-12-2010, 11:33 AM   #474
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Quote:
Originally Posted by formula M View Post
Please re-read.

To ensure life long durability, BMW had to de-stress the N54 more in the XXXis & the 1M, thus they can now tune (ie: boost) it for greater power, because it is more supported.

Anyone... and I mean anyone can buy a 135i and tune it to 400hp. But that is not a reliable figure unless you support that 400hp with added cooling, added flow and added engineering, to de-stress the engine.


Secondly, would you buy a used 135i, (ie: from the So Cal area) that you KNOW has had a JB/PRoceed on it for 3 years..? Those owners themselves don't want to keep that car another 3 years... because they know what dmg they are doing to the driverline and engine.


Again.. BMW just didn't add boost, they supported their decision with additional engineering.
Yawn...............


When you use terms like "de-stress" the engine I get the distinct feeling you have no idea what that really means. All BMW has revealed thus far is that there are tighter internal tolernaces.

So what does that mean exactly?

Less clearance between the piston and cylinder wall?
Smaller ring gap so that less combustion blows by?
Tighter spacing on the crankshaft bearing?
Did they polish and port the valves?


If you use some logic and stop repeating the mysterious marketing, the additional cooling components are probably the primary reason they can produce a bit more horsepower via software changes and still have a reliable warranty.

More power = more heat >>>> needs better cooling, which they have done already in their performance kit via a secondary radiator and a more powerful fan.

Blueprinting an engine to tighter tolerances may free up some revs, but I don't see the redline being any higher in the 1M than the 135i.

If you know so much about the engineering side then please do share.....otherwise you are just throwing out ambiguous terms to puff yourself up.
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      12-12-2010, 12:11 PM   #475
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ilma View Post
Yawn...............


When you use terms like "de-stress" the engine I get the distinct feeling you have no idea what that really means. All BMW has revealed thus far is that there are tighter internal tolernaces.

So what does that mean exactly?

Less clearance between the piston and cylinder wall?
Smaller ring gap so that less combustion blows by?
Tighter spacing on the crankshaft bearing?
Did they polish and port the valves?


If you use some logic and stop repeating the mysterious marketing, the additional cooling components are probably the primary reason they can produce a bit more horsepower via software changes and still have a reliable warranty.

More power = more heat >>>> needs better cooling, which they have done already in their performance kit via a secondary radiator and a more powerful fan.

Blueprinting an engine to tighter tolerances may free up some revs, but I don't see the redline being any higher in the 1M than the 135i.

If you know so much about the engineering side then please do share.....otherwise you are just throwing out ambiguous terms to puff yourself up.

Isn't it possible to change motor compression with a change in head gasket thickness? Isn't it possible to change compression by using parts with higher tolerances (reduced variance from standard) such as valves, pistons? Isn't it possible to increase rpm or provide less stress on the valvetrain by increasing valve spring rates?


It seems to me that you listed several methods for improving the build quality and power potential with the minor changes to internal engine components. Isn't it possible to reduce exhaust gas temperature readings by changing the tune? For example leaning out or richening a cylinder? I am curious to see how much boost is changed, but it does seem to me that a fair amount of power can be made by improving the components used in the build, which then of course then increases the potential once the boost is dialed up. I'm curious to see what boost changes were made.
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      12-12-2010, 12:12 PM   #476
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Robert View Post
This photo was taken in SF city. Unless it's a complete photoshop, no one caught it during the take?

After some investigation, they did some major photoshopping. I believe the original photo was taken at Sansome and Pine. You can see California St. sign after Bank of Orient's sign. Match the location and perspective on Google map, they kept some of the original building structures, added some and modified others. A tell-tale sign comes from the stone works below the windows on left hand side. In Google street view you can see the same window but BMW photoshopped out rest of the window with the same brick pattern.

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      12-12-2010, 02:05 PM   #477
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Would'nt the easiest way to increase VE, would be to increase boost?

Based on the timeline BMW had to create this car, and based on the similairities to the output of the IS engine, one possibility is they took the same engine and put it into the 1M. Does it really matter if they didnt do anything else?

I am not sure how cost effective it would be to create some "special" parts to make the engine in the 1M unique. But, I am certain this would not be to their advantage. If they did do this, I would expect the output to be at least marginally better than that seen in the IS engine.
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      12-12-2010, 02:09 PM   #478
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Quote:
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I fail to see an actual question, since you've answered yourself nicely.

We don't know what BMW has done yet, they have not released that information, but the N54 went through M engineers hands & I highly doubt they left the engine bay alone, given the massive intake.


Anything you can do outside of internals to assist the VE of an engine, is destressing it. (Internally there is as well... but perhaps not in the 1M's application/time frame) So the engine itself, doesn't have to work harder for the added power. (ie: larger FMIC, better cooling, better intake, better exhaust, more effecient turbos/design, etc). Example: de-stressing can be something as simple as exotic metal for springs, that isn't a cost/performance solution for a regular production car.


So.... (yawn...)

Everyone know what the N54 is capable of, but just like the BMW performance upgrade, there needs to be secondary components, that can assist the N54 to handle those levels of sustained output. More so in the 1M, since this is a motosport application.

If u look at the focus of this car and read what Dr Kay Segler is saying, then we know for sure that BMW has re-engineered the N54 for more VE. It's a logical conclusion, since we know BMW didn't design a new engine, then it means they took an existing one and studied on how to make it better..? I bet the worked the plumbing too.. it's all about VE bro.


I suspect you know what "destressing" is/was.. but if u didn't, you answered yourself nicely. It isn't an overly hard thing to understand, but it does make a vast difference.


A bigger intake and maybe somewhat less exhaust backpressure (which is hard to do with cats in the way).

Sure, I guess you can call that de-stressing by improving volumetric efficiency since the engine is just an air pump anyways.

But once again, it's obscure marketing terminology.

Most aftermarket intakes/exhaust allow the turbos to boost more easily by reducing drag on the airflow.

Is that de-stressing?

Well yes.

Except for the fact that adding more air adds also adds more fuel which then has the unfortunate side effect of creating more power.

And that then creates more stress on the engine. So how is that de-stressful?

I guess it depends on how you look at it.

Which is what i don't like about the use of that term......"de-stressing" it can be quite misleading when used in isolation to look at only one side of the VE equation.

And if adding a bigger intake and exhaust is considered a feat of engineering....well there sure are a lot of engineers on this forum.

In any case, I don't think they have done anything radically significant to the N54 engine to make another 30-40 horsepower. Looks like another implementation of the power kit with the oveboost that comes from the IS platform.....just add in a lot of marketing hype.

In any case you have answered my question which you don't think was a question at all.

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We don't know what BMW has done yet, they have not released that information,
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      12-12-2010, 04:56 PM   #479
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I am not a mechanical engineer....but exactly how does the same engine with the same displacement make an extra 50ft/lbs with only intake and exhaust? Explain it to me in laymen's terms please because i don't understand the super-technical mumbo-jumbo....
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      12-12-2010, 05:29 PM   #480
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I am not a mechanical engineer....but exactly how does the same engine with the same displacement make an extra 50ft/lbs with only intake and exhaust? Explain it to me in laymen's terms please because i don't understand the super-technical mumbo-jumbo....
Thats more of a aeroengineer's job but as one I say that without a change in the A/F ratios and with cats its not really doable.
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      12-12-2010, 06:00 PM   #481
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Quote:
Originally Posted by formula M View Post
Secondly, would you buy a used 135i, (ie: from the So Cal area) that you KNOW has had a JB/PRoceed on it for 3 years..? Those owners themselves don't want to keep that car another 3 years... because they know what dmg they are doing to the driverline and engine.


Again.. BMW just didn't add boost, they supported their decision with additional engineering.
First part is subjective and depends on the buyer/owner...you are assuming that you know what is in either party's head...and unless you a psychic...you get the point.

The additional engineering you are talking about so far consists of what? Better intake/exhaust...and what else? Like I said before the bulk of that torque is coming from increased boost...there is just no other way it is possible with the same N54 engine (note that is NOT N54 sourced..it IS a N54).
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      12-12-2010, 07:10 PM   #482
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I believe this answers the question of why BMW did not use the full potential of the engine in the 335. They had to have some room for the M cars.
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      12-12-2010, 07:12 PM   #483
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January issue of C&D is quoting a price of $43k for 1M.
Also if you base the percentage price difference of US M3 coupe prices to UK M3 coupe prices, the 1M price comes to just under $44k as 1M in UK is 39,900 pounds.
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      12-12-2010, 07:52 PM   #484
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Read the thread..

The argument was how BMW handles an additional +50ft-lbs of torque -vs- how a piggyback handles it. BMW de-stresses the engine, so that when adding additional load, it doesn't hinder the engine life-long durability. This is true on several occasions, including allowing Dinan to tune,
I don't think that BMW endorses Dinan in any way, nor do they "allow" Dinan to tune the N54 platform under a BMW warranty. I met Steve Dinan a year ago at a local dealer seminar and he has business relationships with select individual dealerhships, but not with BMW.

The first thing Dinan does is to call BMW and de-register your warranty.

Once you are tuned via Dinan, they take over your engine warranty from BMW.

Dinan doesn't do anything radical to destress the engine in order to prepare it for more boost.

It's mostly a software upgrade. You can also purchase their 3rd party intercooler and oil cooler if you like being price raped......but that is no engineering feat.

Most of the members who mod on here do exactly the same thing already so how is adding on aftermarket parts an example of good engineering? It's just common tuning sense that has been around for decades.

As far as I am concerned, the only significant change going on via BMW is the secondary cooling system they attached to the power kit and the fact that they pulled out a couple of degrees from the timing curve.

That was an example of good engineering that takes into account the additional heat being generated, but it's not like they threw in lower compression pistons or swapped out engine internals to compensate for the added boost.

I guess you missed some of the earlier posts that indicated people who had purchased the BMW power kit experiencing limp modes during the initial releases.

And don't even get me going on that other famous example of BMW engineering - HPFP anyone?

In BMW we trust

Last edited by Ilma; 12-12-2010 at 08:24 PM.
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