BMW 1-Series M Coupe (1M) Wallpapers, Specifications, Info, Pictures, Videos, Pricing

[formula M]

Originally Posted by Ilma

Which is what i don't like about the use of that term......"de-stressing" it can be quite misleading when used in isolation to look at only one side of the VE equation.

And if adding a bigger intake and exhaust is considered a feat of engineering....well there sure are a lot of engineers on this forum.

In any case, I don't think they have done anything radically significant to the N54 engine to make another 30-40 horsepower. Looks like another implementation of the power kit with the oveboost that comes from the IS platform.....just add in a lot of marketing hype.

In any case you have answered my question which you don't think was a question at all.

I fail to see where I use some "obscure marketing terminology", when those are my own words. I have been using the word "de-stress" for many... many years!


Secondly, adding bigger anything doesn't necessarily mean it's better, it must be engineered better, to be better. And yes, adding a better component to your car is not engineering. What it took to make that component better was engineering.

So lets not play games! Specially, since you've taken the actual context out of place. (How BMW makes 370ft-lbs -vs- how Shiv & Terry make it)

[adrean8j]

I am not a mechanical engineer....but exactly how does the same engine with the same displacement make an extra 50ft/lbs with only intake and exhaust? Explain it to me in laymen's terms please because i don't understand the super-technical mumbo-jumbo....

[BrokenVert]

Originally Posted by adrean8j

I am not a mechanical engineer....but exactly how does the same engine with the same displacement make an extra 50ft/lbs with only intake and exhaust? Explain it to me in laymen's terms please because i don't understand the super-technical mumbo-jumbo....

Thats more of a aeroengineer's job but as one I say that without a change in the A/F ratios and with cats its not really doable.

[adrean8j]

Originally Posted by formula M

Secondly, would you buy a used 135i, (ie: from the So Cal area) that you KNOW has had a JB/PRoceed on it for 3 years..? Those owners themselves don't want to keep that car another 3 years... because they know what dmg they are doing to the driverline and engine.


Again.. BMW just didn't add boost, they supported their decision with additional engineering.

First part is subjective and depends on the buyer/owner...you are assuming that you know what is in either party's head...and unless you a psychic...you get the point.

The additional engineering you are talking about so far consists of what? Better intake/exhaust...and what else? Like I said before the bulk of that torque is coming from increased boost...there is just no other way it is possible with the same N54 engine (note that is NOT N54 sourced..it IS a N54).

[Quisp]

I believe this answers the question of why BMW did not use the full potential of the engine in the 335. They had to have some room for the M cars.

[LeMansM5]

January issue of C&D is quoting a price of $43k for 1M.
Also if you base the percentage price difference of US M3 coupe prices to UK M3 coupe prices, the 1M price comes to just under $44k as 1M in UK is 39,900 pounds.

[formula M]

Originally Posted by adrean8j

First part is subjective and depends on the buyer/owner...you are assuming that you know what is in either party's head...and unless you a psychic...you get the point.

The additional engineering you are talking about so far consists of what? Better intake/exhaust...and what else? Like I said before the bulk of that torque is coming from increased boost...there is just no other way it is possible with the same N54 engine (note that is NOT N54 sourced..it IS a N54).

Read the thread..

The argument was how BMW handles an additional +50ft-lbs of torque -vs- how a piggyback handles it. BMW de-stresses the engine, so that when adding additional load, it doesn't hinder the engine life-long durability. This is true on several occasions, including allowing Dinan to tune, w exception to added cooling & BMW's own performance kit, etc. What I suggest is not far-fetched or out of the norm, just logical and representative of past practices and engineering principals.

That was the only remark I made. Perhaps unclearly, as I assumed most would understand.



Now, in speculation it makes the most logical sense that if M engineers didn't have time to BUILD a new M engine, they worked the one they have. Knowing engines and what they do... it is not hard to speculate what an M engineer would do to a N54 to make it better (with little cost & time), you have to let it breath better (VE).

The only other argument is that BMW engineers did absolutely nothing with VE and left the engine alone. But we know that is not true, given the numerous accounts on it pulling harder and longer, etc..

How BMW got the power is not in question... never was. (ie: tune)

[Ilma]

Originally Posted by formula M

Read the thread..

The argument was how BMW handles an additional +50ft-lbs of torque -vs- how a piggyback handles it. BMW de-stresses the engine, so that when adding additional load, it doesn't hinder the engine life-long durability. This is true on several occasions, including allowing Dinan to tune,

I don't think that BMW endorses Dinan in any way, nor do they "allow" Dinan to tune the N54 platform under a BMW warranty. I met Steve Dinan a year ago at a local dealer seminar and he has business relationships with select individual dealerhships, but not with BMW.

The first thing Dinan does is to call BMW and de-register your warranty.

Once you are tuned via Dinan, they take over your engine warranty from BMW.

Dinan doesn't do anything radical to destress the engine in order to prepare it for more boost.

It's mostly a software upgrade. You can also purchase their 3rd party intercooler and oil cooler if you like being price raped......but that is no engineering feat.

Most of the members who mod on here do exactly the same thing already so how is adding on aftermarket parts an example of good engineering? It's just common tuning sense that has been around for decades.

As far as I am concerned, the only significant change going on via BMW is the secondary cooling system they attached to the power kit and the fact that they pulled out a couple of degrees from the timing curve.

That was an example of good engineering that takes into account the additional heat being generated, but it's not like they threw in lower compression pistons or swapped out engine internals to compensate for the added boost.

I guess you missed some of the earlier posts that indicated people who had purchased the BMW power kit experiencing limp modes during the initial releases.

And don't even get me going on that other famous example of BMW engineering - HPFP anyone?

In BMW we trust

[Ilma]

Originally Posted by formula M

I fail to see where I use some "obscure marketing terminology", when those are my own words. I have been using the word "de-stress" for many... many years!

OK...even better because now I know it didn't come from BMW

Originally Posted by formula M

Secondly, adding bigger anything doesn't necessarily mean it's better, it must be engineered better, to be better. And yes, adding a better component to your car is not engineering. What it took to make that component better was engineering.

OK....but go buy any aftermarket intercooler out there and replace your stock one then measure your intake temperatures and report back on that.

Originally Posted by formula M

So lets not play games! Specially, since you've taken the actual context out of place. (How BMW makes 370ft-lbs -vs- how Shiv & Terry make it)

Seems to me that they all make it using the same methodology - they crank up the boost via software instructions. All of them recommend better heat dissipation via larger intercoolers, less restrictive intakes and freeing up exhaust restrictions.

BMW will allow you a 10 second burst at 370 ft lbs via increased boost pressure. The aftermarket tuners do not set a time limit and you can run that power all the time if you so desire.

However the additional heat from all that power will catch up with the lack of cooling capacity that was designed into the original N54 platform which is engineered for 300 hp - not 370.

So I can see an argument to be made for the lack of engineering on the part of the tuners to manage the additional heat, which I would wholeheartedly agree with.

But like I stated earlier......BMW seems to have addressed this via additional cooling capacity and time limited bursts of power to allow some combustion chamber cooling to take place (speculating here).

Yes that is obviously engineering, but is still not what I would consider radical in any way.

[JB135MDCT]

Just add 2 big oil coolers.

[adrean8j]

Originally Posted by formula M

Read the thread..

The argument was how BMW handles an additional +50ft-lbs of torque -vs- how a piggyback handles it. BMW de-stresses the engine, so that when adding additional load, it doesn't hinder the engine life-long durability. This is true on several occasions, including allowing Dinan to tune, w exception to added cooling & BMW's own performance kit, etc. What I suggest is not far-fetched or out of the norm, just logical and representative of past practices and engineering principals.

That was the only remark I made. Perhaps unclearly, as I assumed most would understand.



Now, in speculation it makes the most logical sense that if M engineers didn't have time to BUILD a new M engine, they worked the one they have. Knowing engines and what they do... it is not hard to speculate what an M engineer would do to a N54 to make it better (with little cost & time), you have to let it breath better (VE).

The only other argument is that BMW engineers did absolutely nothing with VE and left the engine alone. But we know that is not true, given the numerous accounts on it pulling harder and longer, etc..

How BMW got the power is not in question... never was. (ie: tune)

No need to be snobbish about it (it comes across that way trust me).

Anyway my response was based upon this quote from you:

"BMW has de-stressed the N54 and engineered better intakes, exhaust to garner the additional +50ft-lbs of torque in the is and 1M."

I am sure with your infinitesimal knowledge you can see the error of that statement and why I would say that the things you stated are NOT enough to gain 50ft/lbs TQ.

So please quit telling me to reread the damn thread...I have read it...

[Ilma]

Originally Posted by adrean8j

No need to be snobbish about it (it comes across that way trust me).

+1

[adc]

What I am wondering about is if BMW did anything to equalize the cylinder temps across all cylinders. When I was running the 335i, I read an BMW engineer's comment saying that cylinder #6 (the one under the firewall/bridge) was routinely seeing higher temps than the others. Presumably by virtue of its positioning and the lack of airflow in the area.

If that is true - and I have no way of telling with certainty - that could be a major contributor to reduced longevity. It also could mean that in many situations the computer is twiddling with the timing to reduce power and temps to that cylinder.


I'm not suggesting the N54 is a time bomb, just throwing some comments out there for people to sink their teeth in...

(And biding my time until the M is returned to me, after I experimented with winter grip by jumping a curb on my way home.)

[formula M]

Originally Posted by adrean8j

No need to be snobbish about it (it comes across that way trust me).

Anyway my response was based upon this quote from you:

"BMW has de-stressed the N54 and engineered better intakes, exhaust to garner the additional +50ft-lbs of torque in the is and 1M."

I am sure with your infinitesimal knowledge you can see the error of that statement and why I would say that the things you stated are NOT enough to gain 50ft/lbs TQ.

So please quit telling me to reread the damn thread...I have read it...

C'mon... U can't call me a snob, when all I was asking, was for you to re-read what u keep missing. If you had gone back, then you would've read my posts (#481), where you would've found your answer. Instead.. you seem to place words in my mouth, then then argue them endlessly.

Understand, I am not naive and won't fall into your dragnet. I highlighted the pertinent part of your quote (from above)

I am sure with your infinitesimal knowledge you can see the error of that statement and why I would say that the things you stated are NOT enough to gain 50ft/lbs TQ.

Problem is, I never stated such things^^.

You are making that up. I never said that destressing the engine makes HP, I said that doing so allows for BMW to make that additional HP with reliability..!





Additionally, here is more of my quotes that illustrate the same:

To ensure life long durability, BMW had to de-stress the N54 more in the XXXis & the 1M, thus they can now tune (ie: boost) it for greater power, because it is more supported.

Anyone... and I mean anyone can buy a 135i and tune it to 400hp. But that is not a reliable figure unless you support that 400hp with added cooling, added flow and added engineering, to de-stress the engine.

Again.. BMW just didn't add boost, they supported their decision with additional engineering.

The argument was how BMW handles an additional +50ft-lbs of torque -vs- how a piggyback handles it. BMW de-stresses the engine, so that when adding additional load, it doesn't hinder the engine life-long durability.

How BMW got the power is not in question... never was. (ie: tune)

I hope this clarifies everything for you. The 135i is different from the Z4 & 1M, in that they have an overboost, but that is not possible without additional measures from BMW, to ensure longevity of the engine.

Based on that... we can speculate what "other" things the M engineers might have done to the N54 in the 1M... but as Scott has said, the specifics of the engine will be forthcomming. Hinting at there is still some information being withheld.

[JsnMR2]

Originally Posted by LeMansM5

January issue of C&D is quoting a price of $43k for 1M.
Also if you base the percentage price difference of US M3 coupe prices to UK M3 coupe prices, the 1M price comes to just under $44k as 1M in UK is 39,900 pounds.

I hope people don't think they are going to actually get a 1M for that much. Unless you want a dumbed down no option car which is lame IMO.

You can EASILY spend 45k on a 135i.

If you could get a loaded 1M for 43k I'd be all over it. I bet with options it will be more around 51-52k loaded.

[adrean8j]

Originally Posted by formula M

Yes, the whole idea is flawed. (M piggyback)

Why would someone buy a 1M to drag race, when a 135i is cheaper and u can spend the difference of cost, on things that make faster people, happier..?


Secondly, why would an M owner "piggyback" a 1M for no reason? This car has a specific focus and limited quantities. BMW knows their engines and knows what their potential is, but they also have to warranty them.

Piggybacks are just that... they circumvent the engine management (or fool it) to extract more performance @ the cost of durability and maintenance. Since most of these people don't keep their "ragged-out lease cars" for 5~7 years, they never see the added maintains or the harm they do. They don't care.


BMW has de-stressed the N54 and engineered better intakes, exhaust to garner the additional +50ft-lbs of torque in the is and 1M. That doesn't mean they don't know the engine as good as tuners... it just means BMW has to weigh the benefit in higher gas mileage across the board, more pollutant, higher insurance cost, marketability, gas guzzler tax, durability, warranty, Federal regulations, etc...

If BMW had to only worry about 6 years of an engines life, the N54 in the 135i/335i would've been 360hp/370ft-lbs. So it is safe to say that BMW, can easily achieve the 451HP potential in the 1M's engine, but de-tuned it for reliability and warranty reasons. Like every car they build.

But make no mistake, I am sure BMW will offer aftermarket BMW Motorsport package that will further assist in unleashing this engine raw potential, for off-road use, etc..



Understand, "Piggybacks" only need to make as much HP as they can, without causing limp mode and doesn't destroy the engine outright over a 3~4 year period. The micro dmg they are doing, will be seen on broken down BMW's, 10 years from now.

Read the thread!!!!!!

Since you seem intent on quoting yourself and saying that you never said certain things AND saying I put words in your mouth let me once again QUOTE your own words (see above).

Right above, highlighted, you can SEE your own STATEMENT that I obviously made up.

And if you reread my previous posts you will see I am not talking about the HP and neither were you (in the statement in question mind you) we were talking about lbs/ft torque.....no where did I mention HP.....

There is no dragnet here guy....I have been on this forum for a while and am far from a so-called troll. You come across as a know-it-all in the tone of your writing. You may not be able to sense it from reading it yourself but trust me it is there....

[LeMansM5]

Originally Posted by JsnMR2

I hope people don't think they are going to actually get a 1M for that much. Unless you want a dumbed down no option car which is lame IMO.

You can EASILY spend 45k on a 135i.

If you could get a loaded 1M for 43k I'd be all over it. I bet with options it will be more around 51-52k loaded.

My comment was on the base price. I am sure with options it will be above $50k, to the #s you mentioned.

[Sedan_Clan]

LOVE it!

[formula M]

Originally Posted by adrean8j

Read the thread!!!!!!

Since you seem intent on quoting yourself and saying that you never said certain things AND saying I put words in your mouth let me once again QUOTE your own words (see above).

Right above, highlighted, you can SEE your own STATEMENT that I obviously made up.

And if you reread my previous posts you will see I am not talking about the HP and neither were you (in the statement in question mind you) we were talking about lbs/ft torque.....no where did I mention HP.....

There is no dragnet here guy....I have been on this forum for a while and am far from a so-called troll. You come across as a know-it-all in the tone of your writing. You may not be able to sense it from reading it yourself but trust me it is there....

Sorry..., but I can't add any more, or explain myself anymore. You are simply on a whitch hunt bro!

We both know that additional load, or stress... can both come from HP, or torque. there is no difference. But if you must differentiate that to save your ego, then it's kewl I understand. A single sentence isn't a post, there are other words surrounding that sentence that qualify what I am suggesting. But again, you know that but choose to troll me.

Peace!

[adrean8j]

Oh jeez man...you just took this all the wrong way....it would have been simpler for you to clarify your statement by saying that you meant that the inclusion of more boost as well as the de-stressing, better intake, and exhaust garner the extra +50ft/lbs.....simple isn't it?

BTW I agree with the majority of what you are saying and I do think BMW will probably be offering some type of increased performance kit in the future.

[Dan Parker]

Here's a 1M sitting just right with some Motons....

[Tuned1M]

^ I like it.