BMW 1 Series Coupe Forum / 1 Series Convertible Forum (1M / tii / 135i / 128i / Coupe / Cabrio / Hatchback) (BMW E82 E88 128i 130i 135i)
 





 

Post Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
      05-13-2011, 08:11 AM   #67
JHOOPS2
AKA HISSMAN
 
JHOOPS2's Avatar
 
Drives: 2009 SG 135i Coupe'
Join Date: Aug 2010
Location: USA

Posts: 890
iTrader: (5)

Quote:
Originally Posted by HondaGoneRogue View Post
I think the small motor tweaks (Yes, they are small tweaks to me) wouldn't have been first on anybodies list if they were the ones designing the 1M. Nobody would have said "Let's keep the same motor, but swap piston rings an flywheel.". Even aftermarket companies haven't pursued changing these items. I'm not suggesting that they are negligible upgrades, but I think people are trying to make the motor more than it really is. The DME doesn't count. Anyone can get and probably will get a reflash. We can also easily swap the flywheel (that's a common mod on other cars), but in the end the upgrades are nothing groundbreaking or major. Can you call it a different engine? Sure, if that makes you feel better. Can you call it relatively the same? Yup, you sure can. The bigger picture of the car as a whole is what should be celebrated. We all have an awesome powerplant!

^This

Also, I don't think that it will be a stretch for COBB to pull the DME software off of a 1-Series M and offer it as an alternative "M Stage" tune with their AP. I know that we do this all of the time with other tuning and ECU devices, so I don't see what COBB would not be able to do the same.
__________________
(FBO) Cobb Stage 2+, AR Downpipes, Injen DCI, AA (Sport) FMIC, ER Chargepipe/Synapse BOV, Carbon fiber bits and Breyton GTS-R Wheels.
JHOOPS2 is offline   United_States
0
Reply With Quote
      05-13-2011, 08:12 AM   #68
KingOfJericho
Brigadier General
 
KingOfJericho's Avatar
 
Drives: Yes
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: CT

Posts: 4,853
iTrader: (1)

Garage List
2010 135i Coupe  [2.63]
Quote:
Originally Posted by Red135 View Post
Ok, then. I seriously doubt a Cobb AP tuned car can match the straight line speed of a tuned 1M.
This thread was started to find out how a TUNED 135i would compare to a stock 1M. Did you miss that?
__________________
The views and opinions expressed in this post are those of the author and do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of Bimmerpost.

2010 S4 Current | 2010 BMW 135i Retired | 2006 Lotus Exige Retired
KingOfJericho is offline  
0
Reply With Quote
      05-13-2011, 08:14 AM   #69
JHOOPS2
AKA HISSMAN
 
JHOOPS2's Avatar
 
Drives: 2009 SG 135i Coupe'
Join Date: Aug 2010
Location: USA

Posts: 890
iTrader: (5)

Quote:
Originally Posted by KingOfJericho View Post
This thread was started to find out how a TUNED 135i would compare to a stock 1M. Did you miss that?

Even with that being said, I have no problems getting off the line with my open diff (and with both tires burning up the pavement). So, I would wager that the LSD will not be that big of a factor until one begins to turn the wheel.
__________________
(FBO) Cobb Stage 2+, AR Downpipes, Injen DCI, AA (Sport) FMIC, ER Chargepipe/Synapse BOV, Carbon fiber bits and Breyton GTS-R Wheels.
JHOOPS2 is offline   United_States
0
Reply With Quote
      05-13-2011, 08:18 AM   #70
MrRoboto
Colonel
 
Drives: VO 1M
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Canada

Posts: 2,691
iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by JHOOPS2 View Post
That's not what this thread is about. This thread is about engine performance in regards to tuning. I think we all can agree that the 1-Series M Coupe is going to be a great track car. However the best way to gauge overall power train performance from the crank pulley to the differential is in a straight line. I'm sure there will be plenty of handling dynamics threads in the future. This is more or less to know how things stack up once a JB4, Cobb, proceed or some other tuning system is applied.
If we are taking about on the road straight line performance then we most certainly have to include gearbox, final drive, differential, etc.

JB4 in a 135 does 0-60 in what...low 4s? Seems obvious that this will outperform the stock 1M 0-60 given the times we have seen (4.5 best I believe). Once a software tune is available for the 1M it will certainly be quicker to 60 then the 135 as the power is better directed to the pavement.
MrRoboto is offline   Canada
0
Reply With Quote
      05-13-2011, 08:22 AM   #71
KingOfJericho
Brigadier General
 
KingOfJericho's Avatar
 
Drives: Yes
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: CT

Posts: 4,853
iTrader: (1)

Garage List
2010 135i Coupe  [2.63]
Quote:
Originally Posted by MrRoboto View Post
If we are taking about on the road straight line performance then we most certainly have to include gearbox, final drive, differential, etc.

JB4 in a 135 does 0-60 in what...low 4s? Seems obvious that this will outperform the stock 1M 0-60 given the times we have seen (4.5 best I believe). Once a software tune is available for the 1M it will certainly be quicker to 60 then the 135 as the power is better directed to the pavement.
Absolutely. The first thing I noticed after the Cobb AP was how inadequate the contact patch is on the 135. I posted this in another thread with regard to the quality of M parts vs the stock 135i parts:
Quote:
Originally Posted by KingOfJericho View Post
When I replaced the front sway bar on my 135 with that of the M3, I was truly shocked by the difference in quality. The U-brackets on the M3 part looked like they were billet aluminum, ours look like cheap chinese-made imitation parts. The M division does not fuck around. While I find it amusing that they put the M on our shifters, wheels, steering wheels, and sills, our cars are miles from M and ergo do not deserve the badge on the back.
__________________
The views and opinions expressed in this post are those of the author and do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of Bimmerpost.

2010 S4 Current | 2010 BMW 135i Retired | 2006 Lotus Exige Retired
KingOfJericho is offline  
0
Reply With Quote
      05-13-2011, 10:55 AM   #72
Papethova
Colonel
 
Papethova's Avatar
 
Drives: '08 135/ '11 1M
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: at Death Valley 127

Posts: 2,976
iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by 1SerieStud View Post
This is correct assuming a flash tune. Piggy backs add to the base map, since the DME is being fooled.
If the DME is being fooled then wouldnt that support what I stated? Im not a software guy and I am not arguing, Im sincerely asking for my own knowledge.

If you are fooling the car into thinking something then how does the baseline starting point matter? The car has to adjust up to or for that "fooled" parameter. I would think its takes more adjustment for the 135 and less for the 1M, both yielding an identical final adjustment.
Papethova is offline  
0
Reply With Quote
      05-13-2011, 10:57 AM   #73
JHOOPS2
AKA HISSMAN
 
JHOOPS2's Avatar
 
Drives: 2009 SG 135i Coupe'
Join Date: Aug 2010
Location: USA

Posts: 890
iTrader: (5)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Papethova View Post

If you are fooling the car into thinking something then how does the baseline starting point matter? .

It doesn't.
__________________
(FBO) Cobb Stage 2+, AR Downpipes, Injen DCI, AA (Sport) FMIC, ER Chargepipe/Synapse BOV, Carbon fiber bits and Breyton GTS-R Wheels.
JHOOPS2 is offline   United_States
0
Reply With Quote
      05-13-2011, 11:15 AM   #74
1SerieStud
Brigadier General
 
1SerieStud's Avatar
 
Drives: '11 VO 1M (498 of 740)
Join Date: Jul 2010
Location: Jacksonville, FL

Posts: 3,485
iTrader: (7)

Piggy backs for the most part work by playing the role of an "offset", if we may call it so, typically changing the DME's view of parameters and values; it's called a piggy back for a reason. If you apply that "offset" to a setup that is already more aggressively tuned, it will yield higher increases in power.

On the other hand, when a DME/ecu is flashed, the memory chip is reprogrammed with the new mappings, in which case the base tune is irrelevant since nothing is being "fooled".

Quote:
Originally Posted by Papethova View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by 1SerieStud View Post
This is correct assuming a flash tune. Piggy backs add to the base map, since the DME is being fooled.
If the DME is being fooled then wouldnt that support what I stated? Im not a software guy and I am not arguing, Im sincerely asking for my own knowledge.

If you are fooling the car into thinking something then how does the baseline starting point matter? The car has to adjust up to or for that "fooled" parameter. I would think its takes more adjustment for the 135 and less for the 1M, both yielding an identical final adjustment.
__________________
'07 e86 M Coupe
1SerieStud is offline  
0
Reply With Quote
      05-13-2011, 11:18 AM   #75
HondaGoneRogue
They like my Swag...
 
HondaGoneRogue's Avatar
 
Drives: 08 AW 135i
Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: Germany

Posts: 3,563
iTrader: (4)

Garage List
2008 135i  [4.33]
Quote:
Originally Posted by Papethova View Post
I would think its takes more adjustment for the 135 and less for the 1M, both yielding an identical final adjustment.
Nope, because a piggyback blinds the DME from it's own sensors. The "mapping" of the piggyback is scaled from the onset of boost through the tapered drop-off of boost. Throttle mapping is scaled also I believe.

It's pretty technical, and some things in the 1M MAY benifit tuning in a compatibility sense, but I bet 99% will be the same tuning parameters.
__________________

2008 AW 135i, Whats a mod?
HondaGoneRogue is offline  
0
Reply With Quote
      05-13-2011, 11:22 AM   #76
HondaGoneRogue
They like my Swag...
 
HondaGoneRogue's Avatar
 
Drives: 08 AW 135i
Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: Germany

Posts: 3,563
iTrader: (4)

Garage List
2008 135i  [4.33]
Quote:
Originally Posted by 1SerieStud View Post
If you apply that "offset" to a setup that is already more aggressively tuned, it will yield higher increases in power.
Negative, it's not a building block in the sense you are thinking. The new tune does not "stack on top of" the OEM tune. It blinds the DME and gives it's own false parameters to manipulate the DME into raising boost, advancing timing etc. The end game will be the same unless other physical restraints come into play, ie; fuel delivery, timimg, compression etc.

I am not a tuner but I believe that the above is pretty much how it is.
__________________

2008 AW 135i, Whats a mod?
HondaGoneRogue is offline  
0
Reply With Quote
      05-13-2011, 11:31 AM   #77
Papethova
Colonel
 
Papethova's Avatar
 
Drives: '08 135/ '11 1M
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: at Death Valley 127

Posts: 2,976
iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by HondaGoneRogue View Post
Negative, it's not a building block in the sense you are thinking. The new tune does not "stack on top of" the OEM tune. It blinds the DME and gives it's own false parameters to manipulate the DME into raising boost, advancing timing etc. The end game will be the same unless other physical restraints come into play, ie; fuel delivery, timimg, compression etc.

I am not a tuner but I believe that the above is pretty much how it is.
Thats what I meant by adjustments... if boost or timing is x in the 135 and x+y in the 1M, adding a piggyback to either yields w not x+z and x+y+z...final result being identical regardless of starting point.

Aren't we saying the same thing, just differently?
Papethova is offline  
0
Reply With Quote
      05-13-2011, 11:35 AM   #78
1SerieStud
Brigadier General
 
1SerieStud's Avatar
 
Drives: '11 VO 1M (498 of 740)
Join Date: Jul 2010
Location: Jacksonville, FL

Posts: 3,485
iTrader: (7)

This may be the "new" way of piggy backs and I could very well be wrong as to how they work on the n5x motors, however, many piggy back systems have been offset tunes...similar to a manual boost controller: all it does it leak air from the line that opens the wastegate in order to force the turbo to compress more air (raise boost) so that the wastegate receives enough pressure to open - granted, this analogy is as mechanical as it gets.

Quote:
Originally Posted by HondaGoneRogue View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by 1SerieStud View Post
If you apply that "offset" to a setup that is already more aggressively tuned, it will yield higher increases in power.
Negative, it's not a building block in the sense you are thinking. The new tune does not "stack on top of" the OEM tune. It blinds the DME and gives it's own false parameters to manipulate the DME into raising boost, advancing timing etc. The end game will be the same unless other physical restraints come into play, ie; fuel delivery, timimg, compression etc.

I am not a tuner but I believe that the above is pretty much how it is.
__________________
'07 e86 M Coupe
1SerieStud is offline  
0
Reply With Quote
      05-13-2011, 12:28 PM   #79
JHOOPS2
AKA HISSMAN
 
JHOOPS2's Avatar
 
Drives: 2009 SG 135i Coupe'
Join Date: Aug 2010
Location: USA

Posts: 890
iTrader: (5)

To be basic, it is my understanding that the piggyback sees the boost that is being ran and makes the DME think it is seeing less boost so that it will then add more boost until the JB4 hits it's target. This is why if the JB4 map 2 commands 14.5 psi peak, then that is what you will get unless their is something wrong with your car. It isn't adding 5.5 psi. It is simply telling the DME that it is only making 3.5 psi, therefor the DME adjusts the WG to the point that the DME finally sees 9 psi, but in reality the turbos are pushing 14.5 psi. In a very small nutshell.
__________________
(FBO) Cobb Stage 2+, AR Downpipes, Injen DCI, AA (Sport) FMIC, ER Chargepipe/Synapse BOV, Carbon fiber bits and Breyton GTS-R Wheels.
JHOOPS2 is offline   United_States
0
Reply With Quote
      05-13-2011, 12:38 PM   #80
Papethova
Colonel
 
Papethova's Avatar
 
Drives: '08 135/ '11 1M
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: at Death Valley 127

Posts: 2,976
iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by JHOOPS2 View Post
To be basic, it is my understanding that the piggyback sees the boost that is being ran and makes the DME think it is seeing less boost so that it will then add more boost until the JB4 hits it's target. This is why if the JB4 map 2 commands 14.5 psi peak, then that is what you will get unless their is something wrong with your car. It isn't adding 5.5 psi. It is simply telling the DME that it is only making 3.5 psi, therefor the DME adjusts the WG to the point that the DME finally sees 9 psi, but in reality the turbos are pushing 14.5 psi. In a very small nutshell.
Thats what I thought and tried to say, so 1M or 135 at that point are equal as far as that parameter is concerned.
Papethova is offline  
0
Reply With Quote
      05-13-2011, 12:45 PM   #81
JHOOPS2
AKA HISSMAN
 
JHOOPS2's Avatar
 
Drives: 2009 SG 135i Coupe'
Join Date: Aug 2010
Location: USA

Posts: 890
iTrader: (5)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Papethova View Post
Thats what I thought and tried to say, so 1M or 135 at that point are equal as far as that parameter is concerned.
Yep.
__________________
(FBO) Cobb Stage 2+, AR Downpipes, Injen DCI, AA (Sport) FMIC, ER Chargepipe/Synapse BOV, Carbon fiber bits and Breyton GTS-R Wheels.
JHOOPS2 is offline   United_States
0
Reply With Quote
      05-13-2011, 01:01 PM   #82
clived
Captain
 
clived's Avatar
 
Drives: Evolved 1M
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: UK

Posts: 812
iTrader: (0)

If you think you can stack a piggy-back tune on top of a DME tune and get piggy + DME results, you're obviously very used to getting something for nothing, or don't mind if your engine goes pop very quickly as some stupid boost levels get requested...
__________________
2011+: VO 1M Coupe, many toys, Evolve Stage 3. 2008-2011: 135i M Sport Le Mans Blue / Lemon / HGSL. Comfort Access, Auto−Dim, Elec Seats + Memory, Lumbar & Heating, PDC F+R, Xenons + Adaptive, Cruise, Nav Pro + Assist & Online, Voice Control, Bluetooth, DAB,6 Disc, Prof Hi−Fi (L7), USB/audio interface, BMW Performance Carbon Fibre interior, Evolve OBD remap - 390bhp. Also in the family: Land Rover Defender 50th Anniversary 4.0 V8, 11 Mercedes E Class Cabriolet Sport.
clived is offline   United Kingdom
0
Reply With Quote
      05-13-2011, 01:09 PM   #83
JHOOPS2
AKA HISSMAN
 
JHOOPS2's Avatar
 
Drives: 2009 SG 135i Coupe'
Join Date: Aug 2010
Location: USA

Posts: 890
iTrader: (5)

Quote:
Originally Posted by clived View Post
If you think you can stack a piggy-back tune on top of a DME tune and get piggy + DME results, you're obviously very used to getting something for nothing, or don't mind if your engine goes pop very quickly as some stupid boost levels get requested...
I think that is where the problem is in some peoples minds. The engine has the same turbos, same cams, same head, same CR, etc etc. So, short of a miracle the end results will be the same as with any other N54.
__________________
(FBO) Cobb Stage 2+, AR Downpipes, Injen DCI, AA (Sport) FMIC, ER Chargepipe/Synapse BOV, Carbon fiber bits and Breyton GTS-R Wheels.
JHOOPS2 is offline   United_States
0
Reply With Quote
      05-13-2011, 01:37 PM   #84
MrRoboto
Colonel
 
Drives: VO 1M
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Canada

Posts: 2,691
iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by JHOOPS2 View Post
The engine has the same turbos, same cams, same head, same CR, etc etc. So, short of a miracle the end results will be the same as with any other N54.
You keep saying it is the same but don't supply any proof to back it up.

To keep you happy, lets put this to rest and say the engine is EXACTLY the same so a tuned 1m and a tuned 135 will have the same power output. The 1M is better equipped to put the power to the ground which all that counts.
MrRoboto is offline   Canada
0
Reply With Quote
      05-13-2011, 01:45 PM   #85
JHOOPS2
AKA HISSMAN
 
JHOOPS2's Avatar
 
Drives: 2009 SG 135i Coupe'
Join Date: Aug 2010
Location: USA

Posts: 890
iTrader: (5)

Quote:
Originally Posted by MrRoboto View Post
You keep saying it is the same but don't supply any proof to back it up.

To keep you happy, lets put this to rest and say the engine is EXACTLY the same so a tuned 1m and a tuned 135 will have the same power output. The 1M is better equipped to put the power to the ground which all that counts.
No doubt about it, and that is part of the reason why a good LSD is on my short list of mods. I've taken care of traction other than that. The 1-Series M will always have a big advantage due to it's wider stance, and there isn't anything that I want to do about that on my car.

With humor I still must say that the only proof I have to back it up is based off of the evidence gathered from the engine in my 135i that carries the same N54 designation.
__________________
(FBO) Cobb Stage 2+, AR Downpipes, Injen DCI, AA (Sport) FMIC, ER Chargepipe/Synapse BOV, Carbon fiber bits and Breyton GTS-R Wheels.
JHOOPS2 is offline   United_States
0
Reply With Quote
      05-13-2011, 01:46 PM   #86
Robert
Major General
 
Drives: 135i, current is350
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: Socal

Posts: 6,869
iTrader: (1)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Noer View Post
Are we talking straight line or in corners?

1M will outhandle the 135i by far.
I'd like to see a showdown between Berk Tech 135i vs. 1M. Straight and corners.
__________________
- There's nothing in my pocket other than knives and lint
Robert is offline  
0
Reply With Quote
      05-13-2011, 01:50 PM   #87
JHOOPS2
AKA HISSMAN
 
JHOOPS2's Avatar
 
Drives: 2009 SG 135i Coupe'
Join Date: Aug 2010
Location: USA

Posts: 890
iTrader: (5)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Robert View Post
I'd like to see a showdown between Berk Tech 135i vs. 1M. Straight and corners.


My vote is on the BT...
__________________
(FBO) Cobb Stage 2+, AR Downpipes, Injen DCI, AA (Sport) FMIC, ER Chargepipe/Synapse BOV, Carbon fiber bits and Breyton GTS-R Wheels.
JHOOPS2 is offline   United_States
0
Reply With Quote
      05-13-2011, 01:53 PM   #88
adrean8j
Brigadier General
 
adrean8j's Avatar
 
Drives: SGM 135I
Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: Everywhere and Nowhere

Posts: 4,074
iTrader: (1)

Garage List
2008 135i  [5.00]
Send a message via Yahoo to adrean8j
1seriesstud: You thought this whole time that piggyback tunes on 135i's stacked??? Ok now I know you are new to the E82 tuning world Just messing with you...but like the others have said they do NOT stack but instead fool the car into thinking it has lower boost and then adjusting timing and other parameters to run at what the boost level actually is.....JB4, Procede both do it although in slightly different ways (an entire argument on its own). Will a tuned 135i with piggyback and full exhaust and IC mods be fast in a straight line? You bet your ass it will...esp. if they both hook up off the line properly...no way a retooled intake, exhaust, flywheel, and LSD beats my car with 60-70 more WHP and 70-80 more lb/ft of torque.
__________________
Quote:
Originally Posted by ptack View Post
SGM was God's color and has been recalled to heaven.
adrean8j is offline   No_Country
0
Reply With Quote
Post Reply

Bookmarks

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 11:17 AM.




1addicts
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.7.0
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
1Addicts.com, BIMMERPOST.com, E90Post.com, F30Post.com, M3Post.com, ZPost.com, 5Post.com, 6Post.com, 7Post.com, XBimmers.com logo and trademark are properties of BIMMERPOST