Can those with 1Ms compare to JB3?

[JHOOPS2]

Proof that I know what a piston is, LOL. This is just one of my left over Cobra pistons that I am going to machine down slightly to make a cup holder out of. I'll be using it with an old engine block to make my very own "Top Gear" engine table...;-)

[JHOOPS2]

Originally Posted by HondaGoneRogue

I think the small motor tweaks (Yes, they are small tweaks to me) wouldn't have been first on anybodies list if they were the ones designing the 1M. Nobody would have said "Let's keep the same motor, but swap piston rings an flywheel.". Even aftermarket companies haven't pursued changing these items. I'm not suggesting that they are negligible upgrades, but I think people are trying to make the motor more than it really is. The DME doesn't count. Anyone can get and probably will get a reflash. We can also easily swap the flywheel (that's a common mod on other cars), but in the end the upgrades are nothing groundbreaking or major. Can you call it a different engine? Sure, if that makes you feel better. Can you call it relatively the same? Yup, you sure can. The bigger picture of the car as a whole is what should be celebrated. We all have an awesome powerplant!

^This

Also, I don't think that it will be a stretch for COBB to pull the DME software off of a 1-Series M and offer it as an alternative "M Stage" tune with their AP. I know that we do this all of the time with other tuning and ECU devices, so I don't see what COBB would not be able to do the same.

[KingOfJericho]

Originally Posted by Red135

Ok, then. I seriously doubt a Cobb AP tuned car can match the straight line speed of a tuned 1M.

This thread was started to find out how a TUNED 135i would compare to a stock 1M. Did you miss that?

[JHOOPS2]

Originally Posted by KingOfJericho

This thread was started to find out how a TUNED 135i would compare to a stock 1M. Did you miss that?

Even with that being said, I have no problems getting off the line with my open diff (and with both tires burning up the pavement). So, I would wager that the LSD will not be that big of a factor until one begins to turn the wheel.

[MrRoboto]

Originally Posted by JHOOPS2

That's not what this thread is about. This thread is about engine performance in regards to tuning. I think we all can agree that the 1-Series M Coupe is going to be a great track car. However the best way to gauge overall power train performance from the crank pulley to the differential is in a straight line. I'm sure there will be plenty of handling dynamics threads in the future. This is more or less to know how things stack up once a JB4, Cobb, proceed or some other tuning system is applied.

If we are taking about on the road straight line performance then we most certainly have to include gearbox, final drive, differential, etc.

JB4 in a 135 does 0-60 in what...low 4s? Seems obvious that this will outperform the stock 1M 0-60 given the times we have seen (4.5 best I believe). Once a software tune is available for the 1M it will certainly be quicker to 60 then the 135 as the power is better directed to the pavement.

[KingOfJericho]

Originally Posted by MrRoboto

If we are taking about on the road straight line performance then we most certainly have to include gearbox, final drive, differential, etc.

JB4 in a 135 does 0-60 in what...low 4s? Seems obvious that this will outperform the stock 1M 0-60 given the times we have seen (4.5 best I believe). Once a software tune is available for the 1M it will certainly be quicker to 60 then the 135 as the power is better directed to the pavement.

Absolutely. The first thing I noticed after the Cobb AP was how inadequate the contact patch is on the 135. I posted this in another thread with regard to the quality of M parts vs the stock 135i parts:

Originally Posted by KingOfJericho

When I replaced the front sway bar on my 135 with that of the M3, I was truly shocked by the difference in quality. The U-brackets on the M3 part looked like they were billet aluminum, ours look like cheap chinese-made imitation parts. The M division does not fuck around. While I find it amusing that they put the M on our shifters, wheels, steering wheels, and sills, our cars are miles from M and ergo do not deserve the badge on the back.

[Papethova]

Originally Posted by 1SerieStud

This is correct assuming a flash tune. Piggy backs add to the base map, since the DME is being fooled.

If the DME is being fooled then wouldnt that support what I stated? Im not a software guy and I am not arguing, Im sincerely asking for my own knowledge.

If you are fooling the car into thinking something then how does the baseline starting point matter? The car has to adjust up to or for that "fooled" parameter. I would think its takes more adjustment for the 135 and less for the 1M, both yielding an identical final adjustment.

[JHOOPS2]

Originally Posted by Papethova

If you are fooling the car into thinking something then how does the baseline starting point matter? .

It doesn't.

[1SerieStud]

Piggy backs for the most part work by playing the role of an "offset", if we may call it so, typically changing the DME's view of parameters and values; it's called a piggy back for a reason. If you apply that "offset" to a setup that is already more aggressively tuned, it will yield higher increases in power.

On the other hand, when a DME/ecu is flashed, the memory chip is reprogrammed with the new mappings, in which case the base tune is irrelevant since nothing is being "fooled".

Originally Posted by Papethova

If the DME is being fooled then wouldnt that support what I stated? Im not a software guy and I am not arguing, Im sincerely asking for my own knowledge.

If you are fooling the car into thinking something then how does the baseline starting point matter? The car has to adjust up to or for that "fooled" parameter. I would think its takes more adjustment for the 135 and less for the 1M, both yielding an identical final adjustment.

[HondaGoneRogue]

Originally Posted by Papethova

I would think its takes more adjustment for the 135 and less for the 1M, both yielding an identical final adjustment.

Nope, because a piggyback blinds the DME from it's own sensors. The "mapping" of the piggyback is scaled from the onset of boost through the tapered drop-off of boost. Throttle mapping is scaled also I believe.

It's pretty technical, and some things in the 1M MAY benifit tuning in a compatibility sense, but I bet 99% will be the same tuning parameters.

[HondaGoneRogue]

Originally Posted by 1SerieStud

If you apply that "offset" to a setup that is already more aggressively tuned, it will yield higher increases in power.

Negative, it's not a building block in the sense you are thinking. The new tune does not "stack on top of" the OEM tune. It blinds the DME and gives it's own false parameters to manipulate the DME into raising boost, advancing timing etc. The end game will be the same unless other physical restraints come into play, ie; fuel delivery, timimg, compression etc.

I am not a tuner but I believe that the above is pretty much how it is.

[Papethova]

Originally Posted by HondaGoneRogue

Negative, it's not a building block in the sense you are thinking. The new tune does not "stack on top of" the OEM tune. It blinds the DME and gives it's own false parameters to manipulate the DME into raising boost, advancing timing etc. The end game will be the same unless other physical restraints come into play, ie; fuel delivery, timimg, compression etc.

I am not a tuner but I believe that the above is pretty much how it is.

Thats what I meant by adjustments... if boost or timing is x in the 135 and x+y in the 1M, adding a piggyback to either yields w not x+z and x+y+z...final result being identical regardless of starting point.

Aren't we saying the same thing, just differently?

[1SerieStud]

This may be the "new" way of piggy backs and I could very well be wrong as to how they work on the n5x motors, however, many piggy back systems have been offset tunes...similar to a manual boost controller: all it does it leak air from the line that opens the wastegate in order to force the turbo to compress more air (raise boost) so that the wastegate receives enough pressure to open - granted, this analogy is as mechanical as it gets.

Originally Posted by HondaGoneRogue

Negative, it's not a building block in the sense you are thinking. The new tune does not "stack on top of" the OEM tune. It blinds the DME and gives it's own false parameters to manipulate the DME into raising boost, advancing timing etc. The end game will be the same unless other physical restraints come into play, ie; fuel delivery, timimg, compression etc.

I am not a tuner but I believe that the above is pretty much how it is.

[JHOOPS2]

To be basic, it is my understanding that the piggyback sees the boost that is being ran and makes the DME think it is seeing less boost so that it will then add more boost until the JB4 hits it's target. This is why if the JB4 map 2 commands 14.5 psi peak, then that is what you will get unless their is something wrong with your car. It isn't adding 5.5 psi. It is simply telling the DME that it is only making 3.5 psi, therefor the DME adjusts the WG to the point that the DME finally sees 9 psi, but in reality the turbos are pushing 14.5 psi. In a very small nutshell.

[Papethova]

Originally Posted by JHOOPS2

To be basic, it is my understanding that the piggyback sees the boost that is being ran and makes the DME think it is seeing less boost so that it will then add more boost until the JB4 hits it's target. This is why if the JB4 map 2 commands 14.5 psi peak, then that is what you will get unless their is something wrong with your car. It isn't adding 5.5 psi. It is simply telling the DME that it is only making 3.5 psi, therefor the DME adjusts the WG to the point that the DME finally sees 9 psi, but in reality the turbos are pushing 14.5 psi. In a very small nutshell.

Thats what I thought and tried to say, so 1M or 135 at that point are equal as far as that parameter is concerned.

[JHOOPS2]

Originally Posted by Papethova

Thats what I thought and tried to say, so 1M or 135 at that point are equal as far as that parameter is concerned.

Yep.

[clived]

If you think you can stack a piggy-back tune on top of a DME tune and get piggy + DME results, you're obviously very used to getting something for nothing, or don't mind if your engine goes pop very quickly as some stupid boost levels get requested...

[JHOOPS2]

Originally Posted by clived

If you think you can stack a piggy-back tune on top of a DME tune and get piggy + DME results, you're obviously very used to getting something for nothing, or don't mind if your engine goes pop very quickly as some stupid boost levels get requested...

I think that is where the problem is in some peoples minds. The engine has the same turbos, same cams, same head, same CR, etc etc. So, short of a miracle the end results will be the same as with any other N54.

[MrRoboto]

Originally Posted by JHOOPS2

The engine has the same turbos, same cams, same head, same CR, etc etc. So, short of a miracle the end results will be the same as with any other N54.

You keep saying it is the same but don't supply any proof to back it up.

To keep you happy, lets put this to rest and say the engine is EXACTLY the same so a tuned 1m and a tuned 135 will have the same power output. The 1M is better equipped to put the power to the ground which all that counts.

[JHOOPS2]

Originally Posted by MrRoboto

You keep saying it is the same but don't supply any proof to back it up.

To keep you happy, lets put this to rest and say the engine is EXACTLY the same so a tuned 1m and a tuned 135 will have the same power output. The 1M is better equipped to put the power to the ground which all that counts.

No doubt about it, and that is part of the reason why a good LSD is on my short list of mods. I've taken care of traction other than that. The 1-Series M will always have a big advantage due to it's wider stance, and there isn't anything that I want to do about that on my car.

With humor I still must say that the only proof I have to back it up is based off of the evidence gathered from the engine in my 135i that carries the same N54 designation.

[Robert]

Originally Posted by Noer

Are we talking straight line or in corners?

1M will outhandle the 135i by far.

I'd like to see a showdown between Berk Tech 135i vs. 1M. Straight and corners.

[JHOOPS2]

Originally Posted by Robert

I'd like to see a showdown between Berk Tech 135i vs. 1M. Straight and corners.

My vote is on the BT...