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      05-01-2013, 06:27 AM   #1
drjekl
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Fuel Injector replacement query due to stumbling N54 (part # 13 53 8 616 079)

I'm just seeking some feedback from you guys in regards to injector troubleshooting and replacement.

I have had my car now for ~ 7 months and since day 1 it has had a slight 'stumble' in 4th gear doing 60 km/h. It also hasn't idled as smooth as any car I have owned before, but I had just put this down to the operation of direct injection.

The car when purchased had a full logbook bmw service with all fluids, filters etc changed (I confirmed this by popping off the air filter cover and checking the panel which was brand new) and just under 70k kays.

This stumble type hesitation seems intermittent, as it would come and go along with the rough idle issue. I must admit I didn't worry about it too much as its mainly used as a weekend car.

I have spoken to Peter @ Advan about this issue and if thecarbon buildup cleaning would rectify this issue and he stated not to bother below 80k km's, but my car may be due as its now over 70k kays. Since then I have had more time to research this issue & perhaps it is more then requiring simply just a walnut shell blasting..

More recently not long after I upgraded to the agressive map on my procede (I have a CP, FMIC, AFE DCI, AR DP's) the car started to misfire randomly at various speeds and the majority of time not at WOT. The car still starts fine so I imagine this cancels out a potential HPFP issue?

Checking the codes as they arise over the past month I have had various errors (fuel pump plausability, misfire cyl 4-5-6, vanos intake, pre cat lambda sensor bank 2 wiring error)

Yesterday after starting the car to drive home from work on a 25 deg day misfires at idle and in slow speeds in 1st and 2nd gear for the 1st time (albeit the CEL didn’t illuminate). I was in map 0 at the time so I pulled over & restarted the car in map 1 and it was fine.

Since then the car hasn't misfired once, but it still has the odd stumble under light throttle.

I have a new set of plugs/socket/coils to go in which I will attempt to do tonight along with a set of bosch 17098 precat o2 sensors in transit.

But since researching this issue I think it may be the injectors, as a few other owners have experienced this stumbling type effect at low rpm's and misfires after startup on a warm day also which was rectified when replacing the injectors.

So I priced up a set of injectors (13 53 8 616 079) and they are ~ $1300 for a set of 6 (ouch!!!)

I have been informed they must be changed as a set of 6 as the new and improved injector has been released by bmw late last year (hence the price increase) and they aren't interchangeable with the superseded injectors (i.e you can't replace new injectors on cyl 4-5-6 and leave the old injectors in in 1-2-3)

So has anyone here installed the new part # type injectors, are they worth the extra $ and how much am I looking for installation/coding costs for the injectors?
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      05-01-2013, 06:38 AM   #2
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Has the car been subject to the fuel injector recall? Check with BMW before rushing in! Some models were subject to a recall and injectors replaced as required.
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      05-01-2013, 06:44 AM   #3
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Quote:
Originally Posted by qship View Post
Has the car been subject to the fuel injector recall? Check with BMW before rushing in! Some models were subject to a recall and injectors replaced as required.
I thought this was a usa only thing (along with the hpfp recall?)
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      05-01-2013, 06:54 AM   #4
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http://www.1addicts.com/forums/showt...njector+recall
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      05-01-2013, 07:02 AM   #5
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Quote:
Originally Posted by qship View Post
Hmm so it seems that the dealership needs to remove the injectors scan them to see if they fall under the campaign rather then check the build vin # to see if the injectors fall under the campaign?

If they find they don't fall under the campaign, is it possible they would be nice and proactive and replace them and when I go to pick up the car slap me with an absurd bill?
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      05-01-2013, 07:03 AM   #6
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Quote:
Originally Posted by drjekl View Post
I thought this was a usa only thing (along with the hpfp recall?)
Hey Shane, It's not just a US thing. Most of us here have had a number of injectors replaced under the injector camp. My 135i had 5 injectors replaced under the recall.

Definitely change those plugs and coils and that should do the trick. If not then do the hpfp as it's not that expensive then look to replace the injectors as a last resort with the older part number on those misfire cylinders only.
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      05-01-2013, 07:41 AM   #7
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My 335 had similar symptoms as you are experiencing atm. I took it to Advan and initially Peter suspected it might be the injectors, however further diagnosing proofs that the hpfp was about to fail, and I had the hpfp replaced.

Also my car had 5 of 6 injectors replaced under the campaign and my vehicle is an 08 built. Have you done the battery cable recall yet? If not, book it in and possibly ask the dealer kindly on the day and see if your vehicle falls within the injector recall campaign. That way they might not slap you a massive diagnose bill.
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      05-01-2013, 07:52 AM   #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Zen View Post
My 335 had similar symptoms as you are experiencing atm. I took it to Advan and initially Peter suspected it might be the injectors, however further diagnosing proofs that the hpfp was about to fail, and I had the hpfp replaced.

Also my car had 5 of 6 injectors replaced under the campaign and my vehicle is an 08 built. Have you done the battery cable recall yet? If not, book it in and possibly ask the dealer kindly on the day and see if your vehicle falls within the injector recall campaign. That way they might not slap you a massive diagnose bill.
Oh ok thanks, i thought long cranks was sign of a hpfp on its way out?

No I haven't had the battery cable done as my car wasn't affected apparently

I will drop by and see my local dealer shortly and see what they can do for me regarding the injectors
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      05-01-2013, 07:52 AM   #9
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It's always a long shot to try diagnose faults only base on online users' experiences.

Your fault indicates that it require some more proper diagnose. From what I can see, I would not jump ahead and replace all injectors, for one, you don't have to replace them all at once. And also you misfire fault could have been cause by your VANOS not adjusting the timing correctly.

So first thing I would recommend doing is replace your insect VANOS solenoid valve. It's relatively inexpensive.

The fact that you have a fuel pump plausibility fault indicates there might also be a fault alone the fuel pump system, remember, there are 2 fuel pumps.

Because you have a tune on your car, I assumed that it would eliminate any oxy sensor fault coming up. But if that is the actual discription of the fault, I suspect that when you had your DP installed, they might not connect the O2 sensor correctly. But this is least of your concern, they will never cause engine to misfire.

Replace coils is a good thing too. They are hard to detect on these engines, as they will not misfire unless it puts through high load demand. i.e. after tuning and under boost.

Hope this helps, I would have given you a free diagnose if you are in Melbourne.
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      05-01-2013, 07:56 AM   #10
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And also you don't have to ask the dealer to look through campaigns, if the car has an overdue campaign, they have to do it or else dealership gets a fine from head office.
And no, they don't check or replace anything unless you ask them to.
All you need to do is give them your VIN and they can see if the injector campaign has been done.
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      05-01-2013, 08:04 AM   #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jin.ActiveMotorwerke View Post
It's always a long shot to try only diagnose faults base on online users' experiences.

Your fault indicates that it require some more proper diagnose. From what I can see, I would not jump ahead and replace all injectors, for one, you don't have to replace them all at once. And also you misfire fault could have been cause by your VANOS not adjusting the timing correctly.

So first thing I would recommend doing is replace your insect VANOS solenoid valve. It's relatively inexpensive.

The fact that you have a fuel pump plausibility fault indicates there might also be a fault alone the fuel pump system, remember, there are 2 fuel pumps.

Because you have a tune on your car, I assumed that it would eliminate any oxy sensor fault coming up. But if that is the actual discription of the fault, I suspect that when you had your DP installed, they might not connect the O2 sensor correctly. But this is least of your concern, they will never cause engine to misfire.

Replace coils is a good thing too. They are hard to detect on these engines, as they will not misfire unless it puts through high load demand. i.e. after tuning and under boost.

Hope this helps, I would have given you a free diagnose if you are in Melbourne.
Thanks for your informative feedback Jin

The vanos intake error popped up on an extremely hot day about 6 weeks ago (35 deg c and high humidity) I was conducting a series of 3rd gear redline logging runs. Since then it hasn't reappeared but as you mentioned possibly could be a cause.

I believe the pre cat lambda sensors control afr's, so couldnt that possibly cause a misfire if the mixtures are incorrect due to a faulty pre cat O2 sensor?

With the coils and plugs (my plugs are 9 months old and 5k kms) I thought these would cause a misfire at wot, more so at moderate throttle type stumbling at 1500/2000 rpm??

Thanks for your offer of diagnosis, unfortunately I reside in Newcastle NSW and the only guys I trust closeby are Advan performance and they are ~2 hrs away unfortunately which is part of the reason why im trying to diagnose this issue myself as I dont wish to attempt to drive to advan and be stuck on the F3 in the right hand lane when it chucks a cel and reduced power limp
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      05-01-2013, 08:08 AM   #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jin.ActiveMotorwerke View Post
And also you don't have to ask the dealer to look through campaigns, if the car has an overdue campaign, they have to do it or else dealership gets a fine from head office.
And no, they don't check or replace anything unless you ask them to.
All you need to do is give them your VIN and they can see if the injector campaign has been done.
Oh ok thanks for that info, I'm sure there are other owners out there like myself who were clueless regarding this!
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      05-01-2013, 08:13 AM   #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jin.ActiveMotorwerke View Post
It's always a long shot to try diagnose faults only base on online users' experiences.

Your fault indicates that it require some more proper diagnose. From what I can see, I would not jump ahead and replace all injectors, for one, you don't have to replace them all at once.
This is the info relating to the new injector part numbers stating you cannot mismatch them with old injector types:

Injectors with index 10 and lower have a different calibration and construction than injectors with index 11 and higher. Due to this difference, the injectors with index 10 and lower and injectors with index 11 and higher cannot be mixed in the same engine.
The index number can be found on the head of the injector after the BMW part number. Example: 13 53 8 616 079-11. "11" is the index number
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      05-01-2013, 08:19 AM   #14
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Like you said, try the coils and plugs. Clear all faults and see which one come back first.
And regarding the O2 sensor, with many years experience in BMW, I have never seen one faulty O2 sensor causing misfire fault. Never seen one cause driving issues for the matter. I replaced many just for the fact that it brought the engine light on.

PM me if you need help chasing the fault. Happy to help out a fellow member stuck far away from a reputable workshop.
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      05-01-2013, 08:21 AM   #15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by drjekl View Post
This is the info relating to the new injector part numbers stating you cannot mismatch them with old injector types:

Injectors with index 10 and lower have a different calibration and construction than injectors with index 11 and higher. Due to this difference, the injectors with index 10 and lower and injectors with index 11 and higher cannot be mixed in the same engine.
The index number can be found on the head of the injector after the BMW part number. Example: 13 53 8 616 079-11. "11" is the index number
Yes. I was not very familiar with the new injectors. But with the 261 injectors, they can be use mix match with anything else before.
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      05-01-2013, 08:25 AM   #16
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Quote:
Originally Posted by drjekl View Post
Oh ok thanks for that info, I'm sure there are other owners out there like myself who were clueless regarding this!
+1

Thanks for the info Jin
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      05-01-2013, 08:29 AM   #17
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JB4135 View Post
Hey Shane, It's not just a US thing. Most of us here have had a number of injectors replaced under the injector camp. My 135i had 5 injectors replaced under the recall.

Definitely change those plugs and coils and that should do the trick. If not then do the hpfp as it's not that expensive then look to replace the injectors as a last resort with the older part number on those misfire cylinders only.
Ahh ok you learn something new everyday huh!

I thought my plugs had arrived today, turned out it was some other parts so hopefully within the next few days they arrive!
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      05-01-2013, 08:33 AM   #18
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jin.ActiveMotorwerke View Post
Like you said, try the coils and plugs. Clear all faults and see which one come back first.
And regarding the O2 sensor, with many years experience in BMW, I have never seen one faulty O2 sensor causing misfire fault. Never seen one cause driving issues for the matter. I replaced many just for the fact that it brought the engine light on.

PM me if you need help chasing the fault. Happy to help out a fellow member stuck far away from a reputable workshop.
Ahh OK thanks for that feedback, hopefully if someone in future has similiar issues and comes across this thread it will save them from buying unnecessary parts!

My local bosch dealer quoted $950 for 2 x precat bosch O2 sensors

Thanks for the offer Jin, I may take you up on that
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      05-01-2013, 08:36 AM   #19
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jin.ActiveMotorwerke View Post
Yes. I was not very familiar with the new injectors. But with the 261 injectors, they can be use mix match with anything else before.
Well it would be costing bmw more to replace injectors from here on with the new part #'s on vehicles fitted with the 261's as they have to replace all 6
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      05-01-2013, 09:16 AM   #20
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jin.ActiveMotorwerke View Post
It's always a long shot to try diagnose faults only base on online users' experiences.

Your fault indicates that it require some more proper diagnose. From what I can see, I would not jump ahead and replace all injectors, for one, you don't have to replace them all at once. And also you misfire fault could have been cause by your VANOS not adjusting the timing correctly.

So first thing I would recommend doing is replace your insect VANOS solenoid valve. It's relatively inexpensive.

The fact that you have a fuel pump plausibility fault indicates there might also be a fault alone the fuel pump system, remember, there are 2 fuel pumps.

Because you have a tune on your car, I assumed that it would eliminate any oxy sensor fault coming up. But if that is the actual discription of the fault, I suspect that when you had your DP installed, they might not connect the O2 sensor correctly. But this is least of your concern, they will never cause engine to misfire.

Replace coils is a good thing too. They are hard to detect on these engines, as they will not misfire unless it puts through high load demand. i.e. after tuning and under boost.

Hope this helps, I would have given you a free diagnose if you are in Melbourne.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jin.ActiveMotorwerke View Post
And also you don't have to ask the dealer to look through campaigns, if the car has an overdue campaign, they have to do it or else dealership gets a fine from head office.
And no, they don't check or replace anything unless you ask them to.
All you need to do is give them your VIN and they can see if the injector campaign has been done.
Great info there.
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      05-01-2013, 07:59 PM   #21
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I spoke to my local dealer this morning (whom were actually quite friendly and helpful) and looking up my details there is no outstanding campaign on my vehicle.

I will have to have a look at my car, as after reading a SIB for the injectors I thought I had once seen a little blue sticker in the engine bay firewall which maybe an injector campaign completed already.

Unfortunately I am only just out of warranty a few months ago also when this trouble started but tbh I would probably prefer to get this work done through an independent bmw specialist like advan as generally I have found with warranty repairs they generally band aid the repairs trying to do the bare minimum to mask the issue rather then diagnose the root cause and replace all the required parts.
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      05-01-2013, 11:32 PM   #22
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I have started to notice some vibrations when my car is idling, say stopped at a traffic light. However, I'm not sure if it is something I should be concerned about.

It almost feels like a heart beat shaking coming and going every so often, is this the same issue that is mentioned here?
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