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      06-08-2011, 11:52 PM   #23
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Quote:
Originally Posted by techthentic View Post
obvious troll is obvious.
would've believed you until your dct comment.
idiot. torque does not diminish with heat. and my 335i far exceeds your Dinan Stage II.
Guys, I'm not an M3 troll..you guys can tell that I am doing everything possible to get a 1M over an M3 BUT I am a car guy and actually have worked a few years in an IMSA GTP Dyno and test department and I can tell you with absolute certainty that heat DOES affect peformance. That is why there are big intercoolers on these cars to cool the intake charge. If the outside air is hot, the intercoolers cannot cool the charge. It is a very simple concept. So as an impartial guy, just thought I would mention it before you start a war over something so basic. The interesting thing is that hot air will also affect NA cars. The one advantage turbos have is that hot air is less dense which is why NA cars lose a little power. Turbos can compensate a bit because thinner air gives less resistance to the turbo impeller so it can spin faster and make up for some of the loss of volume, hence making up for the loss of density. As long as the engine can keep from detonating by cooling the air charge with extra fuel, theoretically, the turbo car should do a little better. Once detonation begins due to the heated air charge, the timing will retard and you will lose power. Anyway, just thought I would throw that out there.
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      06-08-2011, 11:56 PM   #24
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nachob View Post
Guys, I'm not an M3 troll..you guys can tell that I am doing everything possible to get a 1M over an M3 BUT I am a car guy and actually have worked a few years in an IMSA GTP Dyno and test department and I can tell you with absolute certainty that heat DOES affect peformance. That is why there are big intercoolers on these cars to cool the intake charge. If the outside air is hot, the intercoolers cannot cool the charge. It is a very simple concept. So as an impartial guy, just thought I would mention it before you start a war over something so basic. The interesting thing is that hot air will also affect NA cars. The one advantage turbos have is that hot air is less dense which is why NA cars lose a little power. Turbos can compensate a bit because thinner air gives less resistance to the turbo impeller so it can spin faster and make up for some of the loss of volume, hence making up for the loss of density. As long as the engine can keep from detonating by cooling the air charge with extra fuel, theoretically, the turbo car should do a little better. Once detonation begins due to the heated air charge, the timing will retard and you will lose power. Anyway, just thought I would throw that out there.

Seeing as two of the three normally aspirated models overheated... where as the turbo car lost a little torque.... that's not a great showing for the normally aspirated motors anyway.. I'm not a fan of one motor over the other... I'm just sayin...
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      06-09-2011, 12:04 AM   #25
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Originally Posted by M3 Adjuster View Post
Seeing as two of the three normally aspirated models overheated... where as the turbo car lost a little torque.... that's not a great showing for the normally aspirated motors anyway.. I'm not a fan of one motor over the other... I'm just sayin...
Direct injection on turbo motors sprays metered fuel instantaneously in the combustion chamber to bring charge temperature down. That is why these motors can run high compression and turbo at the same time. Without it, it wouldn't work. That is my guess.

It sounds like the M3 didn't overheat which is interesting since that is a high reving, high compression motor.

Not saying anything either way, but direct injection is amazing stuff.
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      06-09-2011, 03:03 AM   #26
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The OP is right on the N54 powered 1M losing torque as temperatures elevated, it's no different than what we have already seen on the N54 powered 135 and 335i's.

We saw 60C IAT's on a single dyno pull in low 70s ambient temps so repeated track sessions will sure get the IAT's even higher. With that kind of IAT's most of us know that the DME will start to pull timing and power is reduced. A good FMIC will help keep the power more consistent here.
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      06-09-2011, 06:30 AM   #27
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ///1M View Post
I think people are being a little harsh on Bubbles. His post doesn't come across as antagonistic. He's just stating his opinion after having driven the cars back-to-back, and I appreciate his opinion. He even joked that he's not the world's greatest driver (not sure if he was being facetious?), no big deal, take it with a grain of salt!

Besides, there are so many hugely positive reviews of the 1M, there's no reason for us to be defensive! 1M is holding its own. :-)
Thanks for the support

I came from a heavily tracked 335i. The car was awesome in cool temps, anything above 85F degrees the car would suffer major heat soak despite running an upgraded oil cooler, intercooler, removal of the fog lamps and running straight distilled water.

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Originally Posted by M3 Adjuster View Post
If the M3 is a pig, then in my mind it doesn't do it all well. Ha!

I get where you are going though, the M3 is adept at most things not master of all. The 1M is a smaller focused sports car.

And truly there is a big difference between a person that wants an M3 DCT and someone that wants a 1M. They just aren't the same buyer.

Way cool that you got to drive the cars back to back, however the only relevant 1 series forum info, is that the 1M didn't overheat... Which is great news actually..

I'm running my '11 6MT M3 Coupe (ZCP) at the track this weekend where I expect triple digit temps this weekend. The 1M didn't overheat, but the engine was running less than 100% due to heat.

Quote:
Originally Posted by rad doc View Post
I won't go as far as saying you are a troll but come on. The car didn't "wow" you. You are about the only person I have heard that from. The automotive journalists are overwhelmingly "wowed" I am sure that they have a whole lot more seat time in amazing rides and are still being "wowed" without exception. Maybe, as you confided, the m3 with dct wows you more due to your driving skills.

Again, the car has not been proven to not be able to deal with heat so we don't have a clue what your talking about. You do not sound like an experienced track veteran so perhaps you should hold that opinion for yourself.
rad doc, please keep in mind I've always been a fan of the N54, just got tired of blowing turbos and major heat soak issues. I did everything I could (including three vornado fans) blowing into the car between sessions. I was quietly hoping the heat issue was corrected but 95F temps are hard to overcome.

As far a tracking, I've been doing it a few years now (probably 30-35 times a year)

Again I think it is a great car.
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      06-09-2011, 06:41 AM   #28
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sparoz View Post
Why is everyone so defensive about the 1M? The OP just says it how it is on the day. Everyone will also have a different opinions on the car. All of us to be 1M owners (me included) haven't actually even driven the car yet, and he has. I don't think some of the replies towards the OP was justified as all you have read are reviews from magazines. Don't think someone who has with over 3.2k post is trying to troll. Love to hear more after more people have track time with the car in high temps.

If you want to bring out reviews - all reviews pretty much stated the M3 is a better car, but the 1M is more fun to drive.

Just want to say we should appreciate opinions from both side.
Thanks, everyone will see when they get their cars. I think all the hype surrounding this car took away from how great the car is, I was expecting something nearly perfected based on the reviews. But I drove it on the track in the heat. It's just my opinion.

Quote:
Originally Posted by formula M View Post
Cool story bro... think u should get the dct, too..
I've gotta come back to reality this weekend and shift myself.

Quote:
Originally Posted by M3 Adjuster View Post
Seeing as two of the three normally aspirated models overheated... where as the turbo car lost a little torque.... that's not a great showing for the normally aspirated motors anyway.. I'm not a fan of one motor over the other... I'm just sayin...
M5 is a very heavy car and my group was beating on the cars, I believe we were the fastest group out there.

Quote:
Originally Posted by nachob View Post
Direct injection on turbo motors sprays metered fuel instantaneously in the combustion chamber to bring charge temperature down. That is why these motors can run high compression and turbo at the same time. Without it, it wouldn't work. That is my guess.

It sounds like the M3 didn't overheat which is interesting since that is a high reving, high compression motor.

Not saying anything either way, but direct injection is amazing stuff.
I was surprised but the M3 heated to 260F and just stayed there despite repeated redline shifts.

Quote:
Originally Posted by HP Autowerks View Post
The OP is right on the N54 powered 1M losing torque as temperatures elevated, it's no different than what we have already seen on the N54 powered 135 and 335i's.

We saw 60C IAT's on a single dyno pull in low 70s ambient temps so repeated track sessions will sure get the IAT's even higher. With that kind of IAT's most of us know that the DME will start to pull timing and power is reduced. A good FMIC will help keep the power more consistent here.
Thank you Harold! This place is tough!
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      06-09-2011, 06:44 AM   #29
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CLUTCH

One last thing, the clutch was tough to get used to. My M3 clutch is grabby, but the 1M is super grabby. It is not the same clutch used in the 335i/135i or the M3. I wonder if BMW upgraded the clutch due to the increase in torque. Just something to note. It felt more like a porsche clutch, which in my opinion is a GOOD thing.
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      06-09-2011, 06:46 AM   #30
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Just want to add that although Dan Parker didn't report any loss in torque/power, but he did report oil temp at 280F. His car also have an AFE intercooler which would help things along.
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      06-09-2011, 06:48 AM   #31
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Nice review...by the M3 driver

Clearly the car is not for you, and I'm sure no one will be offended by your write up, given that there are so many individuals in line/list wishing that they could get their hands on a 1M. You not going for one is going to make someone else VERY happy! So I say: M3 drivers, please stick to your M3's!
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      06-09-2011, 07:00 AM   #32
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sparoz View Post
Just want to add that although Dan Parker didn't report any loss in torque/power, but he did report oil temp at 280F. His car also have an AFE intercooler which would help things along.
Interesting.

Quote:
Originally Posted by 1SerieStud View Post
Nice review...by the M3 driver

Clearly the car is not for you, and I'm sure no one will be offended by your write up, given that there are so many individuals in line/list wishing that they could get their hands on a 1M. You not going for one is going to make someone else VERY happy! So I say: M3 drivers, please stick to your M3's!
The post was not intended to offend, just wanted to offer something.

Oh yes, the LCD screen was hard to read with the sun reflection. I'm not sure if you can adjust that (angle or otherwise). I didn't bother.

And the Alpine White looks awesome in person, but I'm partial.
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      06-09-2011, 07:15 AM   #33
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Dan's car doesnt have a AFE intercooler but the dual cone intake.

I was speaking with a local track guy yesterday (M3 DCT) his car was driven by a racer and to my surprise it did overheat after 5 hard laps. This was in Houston and i bet track temps were prob over 100.
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      06-09-2011, 07:49 AM   #34
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nachob View Post
I can tell you with absolute certainty that heat DOES affect peformance.
I've got to say that I'm with you on this (obviously, as it is so clearly and demonstrably true). techthentic, I can only assume that you've never driven a powerful turbocharged car in a variety of temperature conditions, so have never experienced the pre-emptive tingle of getting into the car on a frosty morning and knowing it's going to have that little extra push compared to a nice hot day....?
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      06-09-2011, 08:14 AM   #35
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This is a very subjective thread - obviously someone who chooses an m3 will use the m3 as the basis for comparison. Some will do it the other way around.

Personally, as much history as the m3 has, other than the amazing high revving v8, i don't believe the e9x m3 has much to offer to the purist/enthusiast. It's grown too large, gotten too heavy, yet it continues to be a great car. I wouldn't think twice about picking a 1m over an m3. In fact I "considered" moving to an e92 m3 in the past up until the 1m was announced, in which case the m3 became immediately a secondary choice for me.

Oh and DCT? You couldn't pay me enough money for me to transition away from the true manual experience. Then again, this is my opinion.

In terms of fun, every review of the 1m involves the car being driven sideways, and apparently it does so very effortlessly. The sweet spot of an m3 is right up there in the high rpm's...the sweet spot of a 1m starts right at 1k rpm's and doesn't stop until redline - to me this is priceless. The power constantly churns out, and there is no need squeeze it out of the engine when driving around on a daily basis.
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      06-09-2011, 08:20 AM   #36
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      06-09-2011, 08:21 AM   #37
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Quote:
Originally Posted by M3 Adjuster View Post
Seeing as two of the three normally aspirated models overheated... where as the turbo car lost a little torque.... that's not a great showing for the normally aspirated motors anyway.. I'm not a fan of one motor over the other... I'm just sayin...
The M5 is 4300 lbs and M6 at nearly 4000 lbs both based on older technology.

I always felt the M3 was piggy, but after driving the M6 and M5, the m3 felt like a gutted spec miata.
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      06-09-2011, 08:36 AM   #38
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 1SerieStud View Post
Nice review...by the M3 driver

Clearly the car is not for you, and I'm sure no one will be offended by your write up, given that there are so many individuals in line/list wishing that they could get their hands on a 1M. You not going for one is going to make someone else VERY happy! So I say: M3 drivers, please stick to your M3's!
And 1 Series drivers, please stick to your 1 series and 1M's!
Do you know how childish you sound? Maybe it's time to ask mommy and daddy for your grown up card now
We all have our opinions and are entitled to them. Don't get butt hurt just because a M3 driver has had some seat time in a 1M (and you haven't yet) and didn't enjoy it as much as his M3. To each their own...
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      06-09-2011, 08:46 AM   #39
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Quote:
Originally Posted by techthentic View Post
idiot. torque does not diminish with heat. and my 335i far exceeds your Dinan Stage II.
I'll let your own words show your ignorance.
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      06-09-2011, 08:50 AM   #40
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Oh goodness thanks for the morning laugh!!!



Quote:
Originally Posted by ferrari4evr1 View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by 1SerieStud View Post
Nice review...by the M3 driver

Clearly the car is not for you, and I'm sure no one will be offended by your write up, given that there are so many individuals in line/list wishing that they could get their hands on a 1M. You not going for one is going to make someone else VERY happy! So I say: M3 drivers, please stick to your M3's!
And 1 Series drivers, please stick to your 1 series and 1M's!
Do you know how childish you sound? Maybe it's time to ask mommy and daddy for your grown up card now
We all have our opinions and are entitled to them. Don't get butt hurt just because a M3 driver has had some seat time in a 1M (and you haven't yet) and didn't enjoy it as much as his M3. To each their own...
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      06-09-2011, 08:51 AM   #41
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Oh goodness thanks for the morning laugh!!!

Anytime
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      06-09-2011, 08:54 AM   #42
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"M cars are not about engines, they are about chassis. The chassis is pure M car. The car doesn't suffer from turbo lag and doesn't get much more fun. For the money, it has to be one of the best fun cars you can buy." - Chris Harris from EVO.

Enough said....
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      06-09-2011, 09:09 AM   #43
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Scientifically speaking from a engineering standpoint Cold air brings air temperatures down and makes cold air. Cold air is much denser than warm, humid air. Cooler or cold air holds more oxygen for any given amount. The more oxygen going into an engine equals the more powerful the combustion. Cooler air also gives more horsepower with the same or better fuel economy.
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      06-09-2011, 09:36 AM   #44
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Quote:
Originally Posted by M1M View Post
Scientifically speaking from a engineering standpoint Cold air brings air temperatures down and makes cold air. Cold air is much denser than warm, humid air. Cooler or cold air holds more oxygen for any given amount. The more oxygen going into an engine equals the more powerful the combustion. Cooler air also gives more horsepower with the same or better fuel economy.

This is true of both Normally Aspirated Engines and Turbo Charged Engines. Altitude effects engines in the same way. However Turbo Engines are much less effected by Altitude changes than NA engines are.

To the OP, Turbo engines have successfully been used in racing cars for over 100 years everything from Rally to Indy cars. In most cases this Loss of power as the heat of the day increases is not very noticeable since it is a gradual loss as the system heats up, that is unless the car goes into some type of Limp mode that shuts off the Turbos.. The same loss is happening to NA engines but to a smaller degree.

I too have a Chipped N54 engine and have ran it hard in 95+ degree temps without any limp mode or real noticeable loss of power. Same with my 05 Subaru STi that is running Stage 2 performance mods, this car performs great in high temps as well even with the Stock Intercooler. Miller Mortorsports track gets very hot in the summer, but it's a dry heat.
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