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      06-09-2011, 10:04 AM   #45
Bubbles
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Redadair View Post
This is true of both Normally Aspirated Engines and Turbo Charged Engines. Altitude effects engines in the same way. However Turbo Engines are much less effected by Altitude changes than NA engines are.

To the OP, Turbo engines have successfully been used in racing cars for over 100 years everything from Rally to Indy cars. In most cases this Loss of power as the heat of the day increases is not very noticeable since it is a gradual loss as the system heats up, that is unless the car goes into some type of Limp mode that shuts off the Turbos.. The same loss is happening to NA engines but to a smaller degree.

I too have a Chipped N54 engine and have ran it hard in 95+ degree temps without any limp mode or real noticeable loss of power. Same with my 05 Subaru STi that is running Stage 2 performance mods, this car performs great in high temps as well even with the Stock Intercooler. Miller Mortorsports track gets very hot in the summer, but it's a dry heat.
I understand the use of turbo motors in racing. I don't see your point?

Congrats on not overheating, I don't know what to tell you other than my experience with the N54 motor on five tracks, all located in hot humid environments. It wasn't limited to just my car. My buddy had a AT and would hit temps that caused the tranny to lock up (mine was a 6MT).

If you have never noticed a loss of power or limped with your N54, you may need to drive harder Seriously though, different tracks stress cars in different ways.

FYI: I was running r comps with race pads and SRF fluid.
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      06-09-2011, 10:08 AM   #46
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      06-09-2011, 10:21 AM   #47
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As a owner of 400rwhp n54 car I agree with you 100%

Unless you are running water/meth you will hear soak so quickly and lose MASSIVE hp on the track.


Anyone who disagrees is retarted.
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      06-09-2011, 10:24 AM   #48
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Quote:
Originally Posted by onefastman View Post
As a owner of 400rwhp n54 car I agree with you 100%

Unless you are running water/meth you will hear soak so quickly and lose MASSIVE hp on the track.


Anyone who disagrees is retarted.
lol, finally spoken by someone with actual track experience.
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      06-09-2011, 10:40 AM   #49
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Im curious did you gauge the reactions/perceptions of others in attendance? What were their feelings on the 1?
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      06-09-2011, 11:18 AM   #50
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Papethova View Post
Im curious did you gauge the reactions/perceptions of others in attendance? What were their feelings on the 1?
I think a lot really liked the 1M, in the same way I loved the N54 when I first got it, until I stumbled upon its limitations.

I think it's a good car, but its not the car for me for the environment and tracks I enjoy. A small cool track with tight curves, I have little doubt the 1M do fantastic.
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      06-09-2011, 11:31 AM   #51
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bubbles View Post
I think a lot really liked the 1M, in the same way I loved the N54 when I first got it, until I stumbled upon its limitations.

I think it's a good car, but its not the car for me for the environment and tracks I enjoy. A small cool track with tight curves, I have little doubt the 1M
This probably makes sense but the reality is the 1M will spend 99% of the time on roads and on-ramps, back roads and I think that is what makes it so cool. I ran into this with my wife and her GTI. She REALLY wanted the GTI but kept saying, "what would we do when my parents visit every year (1 week) we should get a minivan and be practical." I see that all the time, people will buy automatics because they might get stuck in traffic or they might have to carry a few extra kids a couple of times a year. I know many out there are in traffic all the time or carpool, but I know so many that buy based on some 1% contingency. In the end, I told my wife 99.9% of the time it's just her and two kids. She got the GTI and is so happy with it. We bought an old minivan for for $3K and use it to go to the snow or when the inlaws visit.

So the point is the M3 might be a better track car, some other "experts" have said so and if that is where it will spend it's time, then get an M3. I want a small nimble back-road warrior with no fluff that is fun below triple digit speeds.
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      06-09-2011, 11:45 AM   #52
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nachob View Post
Guys, I'm not an M3 troll..you guys can tell that I am doing everything possible to get a 1M over an M3 BUT I am a car guy and actually have worked a few years in an IMSA GTP Dyno and test department and I can tell you with absolute certainty that heat DOES affect peformance. That is why there are big intercoolers on these cars to cool the intake charge. If the outside air is hot, the intercoolers cannot cool the charge. It is a very simple concept. So as an impartial guy, just thought I would mention it before you start a war over something so basic. The interesting thing is that hot air will also affect NA cars. The one advantage turbos have is that hot air is less dense which is why NA cars lose a little power. Turbos can compensate a bit because thinner air gives less resistance to the turbo impeller so it can spin faster and make up for some of the loss of volume, hence making up for the loss of density. As long as the engine can keep from detonating by cooling the air charge with extra fuel, theoretically, the turbo car should do a little better. Once detonation begins due to the heated air charge, the timing will retard and you will lose power. Anyway, just thought I would throw that out there.
All cars loose power at 95* as opposed to 55 or 65*...that's just physics and there's no way around it.

Turbocharged engines have very conservative engine management systems to keep them running safe under all operating conditions. The car will feel slower in hot weather just due to the ECU listening for knock and pulling timing advance accordingly. That's done on purpose to keep the engine from grenading, but it will make the car feel much slower and less sharp than in temps 30-40* cooler.

On a hot track day dumping a 5 gallon drum of 100 oct unleaded would go a long way towards getting the power back. That tends to make the ECU more comfortable to dish out the timing advance again.
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      06-09-2011, 11:48 AM   #53
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nachob View Post
This probably makes sense but the reality is the 1M will spend 99% of the time on roads and on-ramps, back roads and I think that is what makes it so cool. I ran into this with my wife and her GTI. She REALLY wanted the GTI but kept saying, "what would we do when my parents visit every year (1 week) we should get a minivan and be practical." I see that all the time, people will buy automatics because they might get stuck in traffic or they might have to carry a few extra kids a couple of times a year. I know many out there are in traffic all the time or carpool, but I know so many that buy based on some 1% contingency. In the end, I told my wife 99.9% of the time it's just her and two kids. She got the GTI and is so happy with it. We bought an old minivan for for $3K and use it to go to the snow or when the inlaws visit.

So the point is the M3 might be a better track car, some other "experts" have said so and if that is where it will spend it's time, then get an M3. I want a small nimble back-road warrior with no fluff that is fun below triple digit speeds.
Very well put, I think the cars are very different. The M3 is a great track car, but IMO it's better for the tracks I enjoy. If you are in a cool environment the 1M may be your choice. It took me a few track days to figure out how to drive the M3 on the track. I had developed some bad habits with my N54 335i relying on the torque to mask mistakes. I feel fairly confident that I know the N54 pretty well, I was hoping for a bit more from the motor. With that said the handling is far better than my 335i (it should be). But it's feels like the same boosted motor to me. Regardless, I enjoy the looks of the 1M, great stance.

My flight's been delayed another Hefeweizen down the hatch.
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      06-09-2011, 11:49 AM   #54
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bubbles View Post
lol, finally spoken by someone with actual track experience.
So since I didn't get the same results you are claiming about your N54 and the 1M on the track you just discount my time on the Miller Mororsports track as not Actual Track Time?

So far you are the only person to report these issues on the track, including several Magazine reports, I suspect your issue is more about defending your M3 than giving an honest review of the 1M.

Ultimately this is the highest level of flattery for the 1M when the M3 people feel so threatened they stoop to trying to debunk the 1M to avoid any true results that say the 1M is equal to or greater than the M3 at everything, which is what all the Magazines testers are reporting.
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      06-09-2011, 11:51 AM   #55
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Quote:
Originally Posted by onefastman View Post
As a owner of 400rwhp n54 car I agree with you 100%

Unless you are running water/meth you will hear soak so quickly and lose MASSIVE hp on the track.


Anyone who disagrees is retarted.
Or higher octane unleaded fuel...different means to the same end; bring combustion temps down to get the timing back.

But I agree also, too much "teh 1M is invincible and can nevar lose!!!" fanboy crap in here. Unnecessary and obnoxious.
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      06-09-2011, 12:00 PM   #56
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Brandon26pdx View Post
All cars loose power at 95* as opposed to 55 or 65*...that's just physics and there's no way around it.

Turbocharged engines have very conservative engine management systems to keep them running safe under all operating conditions. The car will feel slower in hot weather just due to the ECU listening for knock and pulling timing advance accordingly. That's done on purpose to keep the engine from grenading, but it will make the car feel much slower and less sharp than in temps 30-40* cooler.

On a hot track day dumping a 5 gallon drum of 100 oct unleaded would go a long way towards getting the power back. That tends to make the ECU more comfortable to dish out the timing advance again.
Been there and done that, it helps for a bit but no solution to the problem.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Redadair View Post
So since I didn't get the same results you are claiming about your N54 and the 1M on the track you just discount my time on the Miller Mororsports track as not Actual Track Time?

So far you are the only person to report these issues on the track, including several Magazine reports, I suspect your issue is more about defending your M3 than giving an honest review of the 1M.

Ultimately this is the highest level of flattery for the 1M when the M3 people feel so threatened they stoop to trying to debunk the 1M to avoid any true results that say the 1M is equal to or greater than the M3 at everything, which is what all the Magazines testers are reporting.
No I have no idea who you are and frankly it isn't important to me. If you have never run your current ride hot and lost power, you'll have no problems with the 1M.

Myself and dare I say several others who have experience this well known "heat soak" issue absent meth/water applications will get that all too familiar timing pull. BMW isn't to blame, I would do the same for cars under warranty. My N54 came with the pre 25.5 progman software where it appeared BMW didn't put in such aggressive timing pull. The car would run at the limit constantly until I popped the turbos on a hot day at the track.

I like the car, I don't intend to hurt your feelings or make you doubt your purchase so why don't you wait and see for yourself. I tend the find anyone who is too overzealous holds little credibility.



As far as feeling threatened, I hope the 1M kicks the pants off other cars, but I think everyone should temper their expectations.

As far as attacking track experience, do you remember your statement to me? Let me help you....
Quote:
Originally Posted by rad doc View Post
Again, the car has not been proven to not be able to deal with heat so we don't have a clue what your talking about. You do not sound like an experienced track veteran so perhaps you should hold that opinion for yourself.
If you like I can show you how to get your ride up to proper temps.
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      06-09-2011, 12:00 PM   #57
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Redadair View Post
So since I didn't get the same results you are claiming about your N54 and the 1M on the track you just discount my time on the Miller Mororsports track as not Actual Track Time?

So far you are the only person to report these issues on the track, including several Magazine reports, I suspect your issue is more about defending your M3 than giving an honest review of the 1M.

Ultimately this is the highest level of flattery for the 1M when the M3 people feel so threatened they stoop to trying to debunk the 1M to avoid any true results that say the 1M is equal to or greater than the M3 at everything, which is what all the Magazines testers are reporting.
Or perhaps this is the 1M people trying to put their 1M on this pedestal and sit in this world of denial? The world of "Their 1M cannot do no wrong and is perfect." C'mon. EVERY car has their issues. M3 and 1M.... It happens. Just because an M3 driver gave his opinion about the 1M and prefers the M3, doesn't mean he should be Lynched by the 1M Lynch Mob and that HIS results are inconclusive..
Everyone has thier personal preferences and experiences... Leave it be...
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      06-09-2011, 12:20 PM   #58
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I LOVE the 1M, fully support all of its functions. But somehow I agree with the OP.

Just throw on an oil cooler and it is set!!
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      06-09-2011, 12:30 PM   #59
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yet another irrelevant post. Dude, the 1M comes with not 1, but 2 oil coolers. It was already tracked by a member under extremely hot circumstances and the car did not go into any sort of limp mode.

Quote:
Originally Posted by termigni View Post
I LOVE the 1M, fully support all of its functions. But somehow I agree with the OP.

Just throw on an oil cooler and it is set!!
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      06-09-2011, 01:14 PM   #60
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Originally Posted by 1SerieStud View Post
yet another irrelevant post. Dude, the 1M comes with not 1, but 2 oil coolers. It was already tracked by a member under extremely hot circumstances and the car did not go into any sort of limp mode.

wow sorry for my ignorance. well that just made 1M even worse than what it is...
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      06-09-2011, 01:20 PM   #61
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You dont see 1M owners posting that the M3 is overweight and overprices on the M3 forum do you?
LOL, that's because the posts get deleted within 5 secs. and the user gets an infraction/banned. Check my infractions. All from M3 post all from speaking truth hahaha. Gotta love M3post.
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      06-09-2011, 01:24 PM   #62
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No problem...due to ignorance your opinion doesn't count anyways

Quote:
Originally Posted by termigni View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by 1SerieStud View Post
yet another irrelevant post. Dude, the 1M comes with not 1, but 2 oil coolers. It was already tracked by a member under extremely hot circumstances and the car did not go into any sort of limp mode.

wow sorry for my ignorance. well that just made 1M even worse than what it is...
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      06-09-2011, 01:32 PM   #63
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I agree that the OP could be correct with the heatsoak issue. Anyone dismissing this as impossible is either:
A) not accustomed to hard driving in the heat -or- B) putting way too much faith in the cooling properties required for how hot our motors get. Remember when BMW overlooked the oilcoolers on the first 335i's?

I'm not saying this car is doing it, nor am I saying it's not, but we haven't exactly been in the hottests months yet either.

A final note to the M3 vs 1M topic,
If saying that the drop-off of TQ or HP after multiple hotlaps is "underwhelming" then would that not be a miniscule point compared to never being able to push an M3 into it's highest level without being on a closed track? I have had 2 friends that loved thier E92's in Germany, but sold them as soon as they got here because they just couldn't find anywhere to "open them up".

To me the 1M is a no-brainer. But, to each their own.
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      06-09-2011, 01:34 PM   #64
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Originally Posted by ferrari4evr1 View Post
You should have put your flame suit on. 1M owners and future owners are gonna flip out

Atleast your honest though... Nice write up...
He said that's 1 man's opinion... he didn't say this is the way it is.
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      06-09-2011, 01:53 PM   #65
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No problem...due to ignorance your opinion doesn't count anyways
dunno why 1ers are getting sooo defensive... due to the nature of turbo charged cars, OP might not be lying. that's all i'm saying.

nontheless 1M is a superb car. only time will tell us about the potential heat soak issue...
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      06-09-2011, 02:06 PM   #66
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The N54 will heatsoak on a hot, humid day. I have run my tuned 135i N54 on tracks in the south (Georgia, SC) and on my final couple laps each session I can feel a slight loss of power. Generally it isn't enough of a loss to be to concerned with during relatively short HPDE sessions. If I was a club racer (I suspect the OP does multiple trackdays or is closer to being a club racer) then I would be concerned about that loss over long track sessions. People you don't have to defend the 1M, it is probably a great car, but it is not the giant killer the fan-boys think it may be.
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