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      08-04-2011, 10:53 AM   #67
MrRoboto
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Originally Posted by JHOOPS2 View Post
yes, if you know the exact flywheel number. It is all based on assumption, however I am backing my assumption off of experience.
Fair enough. Their are a number of unknown variables at play.

My calculation is based simply on math.
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      08-04-2011, 01:00 PM   #68
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If you dont know the FWHP and your customer expects a 15% loss then doesnt it make sense to take the RW number and assume its 85% of the FW number?

In which case math suggests you take the RW number and divide by 0.85 to get the FW number.

Now that may be lower or higher than the manufacturers claimed HP which just means its a strong/weak motor OR the driveline loss isnt 15%, but as you stated its drilled into peoples heads that it should be 15%.

So they walk away thinking they got a strong/weak motor from the factory or their mods are putting down more/less than the advertised/expected gains. Doesnt really matter which since the 15% stays standard all the time for them and their car. They just never know the exact HP number but it should be within 2-3% plus/minus the calculated number. They should be concerned only with the delta anyways.

Not trying to be a jerk, just seems logical to me. Why fudge math?
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      08-04-2011, 01:14 PM   #69
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Papethova View Post
If you dont know the FWHP and your customer expects a 15% loss then doesnt it make sense to take the RW number and assume its 85% of the FW number?

In which case math suggests you take the RW number and divide by 0.85 to get the FW number.

Now that may be lower or higher than the manufacturers claimed HP which just means its a strong/weak motor OR the driveline loss isnt 15%, but as you stated its drilled into peoples heads that it should be 15%.

So they walk away thinking they got a strong/weak motor from the factory or their mods are putting down more/less than the advertised/expected gains. Doesnt really matter which since the 15% stays standard all the time for them and their car. They just never know the exact HP number but it should be within 2-3% plus/minus the calculated number. They should be concerned only with the delta anyways.

Not trying to be a jerk, just seems logical to me. Why fudge math?

You would think, but then you get slammed because your dyno is a glory machine and spits out higher numbers than advertised by the manufacturer. It's a damned if you do, damned if you don't kind of thing.
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      08-04-2011, 06:02 PM   #70
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Looking forward to seeing how the extra meats out back can stick the power down!
What is the width on those back tires? 275? 285?
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      08-05-2011, 12:56 AM   #71
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What is the width on those back tires? 275? 285?
295's!!
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      08-05-2011, 08:41 AM   #72
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Originally Posted by Muffnbluff View Post
You are wrong, wrong, wrong, wrong.

If you had after tax earnings of $85 and your tax rate was 15%, would you multiply 85*1.15 to get your before tax earnings. No. You would take 85/(1-.15).

Granted, with a dyno the drivetrain loss is unknown, but the appropriate way to back into crank is to divide by (1 - drivetrain loss %).

this is always the way I have done it as well... but it's easier to just simply talk in terms of WHEEL HP, and leave others to do their own math and generate their own figures... because indeed... there is no reference for the flywheel numbers (we already know that the 1M is under-rated from the factory) or powertrain loss readily available.. (the 15% figure is a rather arbitrary number that works "close enough" but could differ from one make of vehicle to another..)
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      08-05-2011, 02:51 PM   #73
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Drivetrain loss can't be calculated by a percentage.

It takes a specific amount of energy to power any given drivetrain depending on all of its components. Different wheels and tires, a lighter driveshaft or even something as simple as changing to a different gear oil can affect what the exact number is.

I don't know what the amount is for a 1M but lets say it takes 40HP to power its drivetrain. If nothing on the drivetrain is modified other than adding more power to the engine it will continue to use 40HP of whatever the engine's output may be.

If you start off with 340HP and add 60HP, that's a 17.6% increase in power. If you go by the percentage based drivetrain loss then it would now take 47HP to power the drivetrain, which is absurd if you really think about it. There is no extra weight for the engine to move, no additional force that requires it to all of a sudden use more energy than it was doing before it gained this new found power.

That would be like saying that picking up an object with my hand after putting on 17% muscle mass would require more energy than before I gain the added strength.

OP, good gains and great looking ride.
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      08-06-2011, 11:52 AM   #74
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GoKimiGo! View Post
Drivetrain loss can't be calculated by a percentage.

It takes a specific amount of energy to power any given drivetrain depending on all of its components. Different wheels and tires, a lighter driveshaft or even something as simple as changing to a different gear oil can affect what the exact number is.

I don't know what the amount is for a 1M but lets say it takes 40HP to power its drivetrain. If nothing on the drivetrain is modified other than adding more power to the engine it will continue to use 40HP of whatever the engine's output may be.

If you start off with 340HP and add 60HP, that's a 17.6% increase in power. If you go by the percentage based drivetrain loss then it would now take 47HP to power the drivetrain, which is absurd if you really think about it. There is no extra weight for the engine to move, no additional force that requires it to all of a sudden use more energy than it was doing before it gained this new found power.

That would be like saying that picking up an object with my hand after putting on 17% muscle mass would require more energy than before I gain the added strength.

OP, good gains and great looking ride.

This is another reason why I don't like to mess with figuring flywheel numbers unless I have a base run from the same vehicle in bone stock trim.
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      08-07-2011, 12:30 AM   #75
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JHOOPS2 View Post
This is another reason why I don't like to mess with figuring flywheel numbers unless I have a base run from the same vehicle in bone stock trim.
I am enjoying all the discussion regarding the numbers the car is putting down, but this is exactly why I included dyno runs when the car was completely stock.


Stay tuned for the ESS Tuning Stage 2 tune for the 1M.


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      08-07-2011, 09:49 AM   #76
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Hi biglare,

Congratulations on your new 1M. I thought that you were getting an AW 1M, that's what you told me when we met in mfest?

Impressive numbers for stage I tune on 91 oct fuel. Do you know if the stage II tune will require 93 oct fuel or not?

Enjoy your little rocket

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      08-08-2011, 12:55 AM   #77
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Motion View Post
Wait, the power gain from stock to ESS Stage 1 isn't much different than the typical N54 piggy back tune or the GIAC I saw on another 1M. Why mess with the numbers to make it look better than what it is? Your delta is not much better, really!

Any tune can make nice numbers if that is all you are after, but what about your IAT's, too high I assume? How does the car drive on the road? Throttle response?

You said the tune pulled all the way to redline, but I see it peak right aroud 5K and start to fall off from there!
First of all I never said my delta was any better than anyone else. I am merely showing everyone what I found when I dyno'd the car stock and with the ESS Stage 1 tune. The numbers are there and you and anyone else cna make what they want of them, but there they are.

I am not sure what the IAT's are, but contact ESS and I'm sure they will be happy to explain for you.

Yes, the car feels better than what the dyno shows. Am I not allowed to state my opinion and post up an actual dyno's? The car drives perfectly on the street, but pulls like a freight train on the hills by my house! The throttle response is immediate and the every day drive-ability has been retained with the ESS Stage 1 tune, except you just want to hammer the car everywhere. Ha!

Also, I just got back from a track day in Orange County with the 1M and the ESS Stage 1 tune. I had the car out on the track for six sessions of 20-25 minutes each and the car performed flawlessy! The oil temps barely got above 250 on a 85 degree day. Throttle response was perfect and immediate! I will be posting a separate thread on the track day soon.

Oh and when you get your 1M you can get whatever tune or piggyback that you want as it is your prerogative.
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      08-08-2011, 11:30 PM   #78
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Can someone explain this 'delta' thing that people are talking about? and what difference it makes in the real world to the figures that these tunes are making?
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      08-09-2011, 12:03 AM   #79
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Can someone explain this 'delta' thing that people are talking about? and what difference it makes in the real world to the figures that these tunes are making?
Delta is the difference. The biggest gain between the base run and the current run. In the real world it shows how much more power the mod(s) have added to the baseline power.
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      08-10-2011, 01:51 AM   #80
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Motion View Post
I am simply trying to get all the tuners on the same page so everyone can compare numbers fairly...The most conservative guys are GIAC from what I have seen. Everyone else is just posting big numbers, but the delta isn't any better.

There is a road course in Orange County? That is news to me! Did I miss something?

Both of my cars were custom tuned because of the turbo. I am sure if I ever get the 1M it will be a flash tune, the piggy's make power, but not safely and reliably. I have seen way too many 135/335 guys at the track with these piggy's that keep getting limp modes and waste their time in the pits trying to figure things out.

Maybe a magazine will put ESS and GIAC head to head to see who is king!
Lets keep the head to head comparisons is a separate thread please.

This thread is about my ESS Tuning Stage 1 tune and the dyno numbers that I put down with it compared to stock. These are the facts and its up to everyone to draw their own conclusions.

I love this tune so far and have even tried it on the track without any issues at all. The 1M performed flawlessly and I'll do another post specific to the track event very soon. Yes, the track is in Irvine at El Toro airpark, OCRC.

Here is a link to the video -->



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      08-10-2011, 11:18 AM   #81
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Quote:
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I love this tune so far and have even tried it on the track without any issues at all. The 1M performed flawlessly and I'll do another post specific to the track event very soon. Yes, the track is in Irvine at El Toro airpark, OCRC.



I take it that the course is semi-permanent..? WOW that's a lot of cones... and I say that as a person that's set up a fair share of autocross courses over the last 15 years. That looks like a time trial basically.. nice driving btw.
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      08-29-2011, 05:02 AM   #82
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those are amazing numbers!!! N54 ftw
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      12-07-2011, 10:29 PM   #83
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Originally Posted by biglare View Post
I am enjoying all the discussion regarding the numbers the car is putting down, but this is exactly why I included dyno runs when the car was completely stock.


Stay tuned for the ESS Tuning Stage 2 tune for the 1M.


Have you (or anyone) tried the ESS stage 2 yet? What does it require? Downpipe and FMIC??

Last edited by bklounge; 12-07-2011 at 10:57 PM.
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      12-08-2011, 10:37 PM   #84
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Have you (or anyone) tried the ESS stage 2 yet? What does it require? Downpipe and FMIC??
I emailed ESS Tuning last Thursday asking about Stage II availability and they responded "Still in testing, we will announce when we release it."

Sooo.....the wait continues.....
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      12-08-2011, 10:55 PM   #85
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Would love to see Dyno Graphs with this tune and Akrapovic Exhaust and DP's
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      12-09-2011, 12:48 AM   #86
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I emailed ESS Tuning last Thursday asking about Stage II availability and they responded "Still in testing, we will announce when we release it."

Sooo.....the wait continues.....
I be all over that....
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      12-09-2011, 10:34 AM   #87
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I emailed ESS Tuning last Thursday asking about Stage II availability and they responded "Still in testing, we will announce when we release it."

Sooo.....the wait continues.....
Sooo.. they've been "developing" the tune for over three months now. It sounds like they're not actively developing it, but plan on.
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      12-09-2011, 09:41 PM   #88
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Sooo.. they've been "developing" the tune for over three months now. It sounds like they're not actively developing it, but plan on.
I have to agree!

Quite skeptical about the progress of the Stage 2 tune.
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