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      10-04-2011, 11:19 AM   #23
fourtailpipes
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practice practice practice. i find the pedals to be perfectly positioned, and have no issues performing smooth heel-toe shifts in any scenario from a 4-3 shift on the track (brake buried, moderate blip) to a 2-1 shift pulling into my driveway (feathered brake, deep blip). i'm a bit of a heel-toe nut, but i heel-toe literally every single downshift except (obviously) for when i drop a gear to accelerate, in which case i just match revs. obviously the 2-1 heel-toe downshift pulling into my driveway is totally unnecessary, but i like to keep my teeth sharp. :-D

adding a pedal with an extension would likely make this much harder (i think) because you'd have the brake and gas extremely close together. i needed pedals on my old audi s4, but on my e46 m3 and this car (and every bimmer i've ever driven), the pedals feel spot on for heel-toe.
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      10-05-2011, 09:36 PM   #24
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bimmer-Bob View Post
No matter how you do it, it's still called "heel-and-toe," and I find the pedals in the 1er to be pretty nicely placed for it.
Quite true Sir.
"Heel/toe" isn't necessarily literal.

As fun and challenging as this can be, I LOVE Nissans "syncro rev", or what ever they call it, in the 370Z. It's perfect. Yes, it removes the need for the driver to do "heel/toe" perfectly, but the system executes the rev match perfectly. It's quite nice. You can turn it off if you really want to practice the organic "proper" heel/toe. But, if my 135i had it I don't think I would turn it off.
I know, I know, next I'll be saying I want DCT in my next car.
Uh.....actually, I do.
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      10-05-2011, 09:55 PM   #25
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Originally Posted by Simsims View Post
I find all non M BMW brakes to be grabby. The initial brake bite is very strong, possibly designed for safety. On the highways if you touch the brakes the car will go BOOM from the initial bite.

However, once you get into an M car, the brakes feel a lot more linear without a strong first bite that'll catch you. But you gotta know how to use it.. If you apply pressure the same way you did in a non M car you'll run into something. I know I almost did in Munich xD
You may experiencing BMW's "brake assist", I think that's what they call it.
It works based on your speed, but more so on how fast you release the throttle and get on the brakes. The faster you go to the brake from the throttle the greater amount of brake boost the system gives.
It's supposed to be a "safety" feature. The idea is that if you're moving off the throttle and quickly to the brake, then you must want or need to stop as quickly as possible. And, since most people don't apply the brake pedal pressure as hard as they should, the system will boost brake pressure to a greater level so as to apply greater brake force.

I experienced this a couple of times and I'll have to say it works.
I was traffic on day and we were at a stop light. The light went green, we started moving. I was up to about 30mph. I got distracted for a split second, thinking we were moving so all was well. As soon as I looked up bright brake lights in front of me. I quickly went for the brake.
The brakes bit HARD. So much that I went forward and the seat belt gripped hard. I had room to stop, but going that fast from throttle to brake activated that feature.
I've also noticed one time while on the highway.
I was going about 55mph, no cars near me. For some strange reason my throttle foot slipped and hit the brake with not much pressure from me, but the braking force was immediate and immense, such that I was thrown into the belt as if I had stomped on the brake.

Maybe some of you are experiencing this feature as "too grabby" or "too much initial bite". For me, I think BMW brakes are quite good.
When braking normally I have no "grab" or anything like that.
The brake pedal doesn't have a lot of movement like many other cars. Stopping force feels linear to the amount of force you apply to the brake pedal. Porsche brakes are awesome. Almost no brake pedal travel, just more braking as you apply more pressure. Many people don't like that, as they are used to equating stopping force with more brake pedal travel.
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      10-05-2011, 11:18 PM   #26
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Fwiw I've found the 135 to be fairly easy in general and much more natural than my last couple cars (mazdaspeed3, wrx).
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      10-06-2011, 06:28 AM   #27
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RPM90 View Post
Quite true Sir.
"Heel/toe" isn't necessarily literal.

As fun and challenging as this can be, I LOVE Nissans "syncro rev", or what ever they call it, in the 370Z. It's perfect. Yes, it removes the need for the driver to do "heel/toe" perfectly, but the system executes the rev match perfectly. It's quite nice. You can turn it off if you really want to practice the organic "proper" heel/toe. But, if my 135i had it I don't think I would turn it off.
I know, I know, next I'll be saying I want DCT in my next car.
Uh.....actually, I do.
Heel-toe is not just to sound good. There are 2 key reasons why you do it:
  1. To make the lower gear easier to engage (so really it's more of a heel-toe+double clutch);
  2. Reduce the chance of rear tyres loosing traction due to compression braking.

I've never experienced the Nissan system but I'm guessing that it is more for the sound of it as well as reason 2 above - which is why it would make sense to switch it off if you wanted to change down properly without putting undue stress on the syncros.

The DCT definitely only does the blip for the second reason above as it pre-engages a lower gear before you even flick the paddle (or stick) hence reason 1 doesn't get a look in.
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      10-06-2011, 08:00 AM   #28
TX78666
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FWIW, it is more like heel/ball, or heel/arch for me, and many others, I suspect. If I really had my toes on the brake, I couldn't possibly get my heel on the throttle. Feet are too big. Or, maybe I could do arch/toe, but heel/ball seems to be the best fit.

After I noticed, I tried it with my toes on the brake, and it was actually pretty uncomfortable, and nearly impossible, to blip the throttle. That may be where some people are having trouble.

But, as I said in another post on the subject, I am sure my technique is far from ideal, so YMMV.
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      10-06-2011, 09:47 AM   #29
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RPM90 View Post
Maybe some of you are experiencing this feature as "too grabby" or "too much initial bite". For me, I think BMW brakes are quite good.
When braking normally I have no "grab" or anything like that.
Lots of people here have replaced the OEM brake pads with aftermarket pads to get rid of the extreme initial bite, and it works. The difference is like night and day.
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      10-08-2011, 08:03 PM   #30
RPM90
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CrustyNoodle View Post
Heel-toe is not just to sound good. There are 2 key reasons why you do it:
  1. To make the lower gear easier to engage (so really it's more of a heel-toe+double clutch);
  2. Reduce the chance of rear tyres loosing traction due to compression braking.

I've never experienced the Nissan system but I'm guessing that it is more for the sound of it as well as reason 2 above - which is why it would make sense to switch it off if you wanted to change down properly without putting undue stress on the syncros.

The DCT definitely only does the blip for the second reason above as it pre-engages a lower gear before you even flick the paddle (or stick) hence reason 1 doesn't get a look in.
I never said that heel/toe was just to "sound good".
Nissans tech is not designed for sounding good, it's designed to match engine revs during gear changes on down gear accel or decel.
When coming into a turn from speed you simply concentrate on braking, and it handles the rev match.
The only reason to shut it off is so that you can practice heel/toe.
Here's a good read for it:
http://www.caranddriver.com/features...ined-tech_dept

2 different things in your post, "rev matching" and "heel/toe". Heel/toe can be used to facilitate a rev match, but you don't need to heel/toe to make a lower gear engage easier, such as when accelerating using a lower gear from the higher gear you are in.
In that situation, you don't heel/toe, you match revs with throttle control/"blip".

I don't agree about what you propose as the 2 "key" reasons for rev matching, though those are 2 things helped by rev matching.
More importantly, imo, rev matching is to protect against drive line shock, and by virtue of that, it keeps the car smooth by not unsettling the chassis, for smoother handling, and reducing stress to the drive line. Avoiding compression braking is an important part of that, as you mention.

Rev matching is not done just for slowing down. It's also the proper way to execute acceleration when downshifting a couple of gears, such as for passing. By matching the revs to the lower gear, your car accelerates smoothly instead of bogging/dragging down the engine when engaging a lower gear to accelerate.
Nissans system does all this very nicely I might add.
You really should try it out, it's awesome.

Double clutching and heel/toe are not the same thing.
Dbl clutching is a technique used in old manuals that didn't have syncro's.
Double clutching is a technique to achieve rev-matching the transmission's *intermediate shaft* to the output gear that is to be selected.
In a modern manual trans we have syncros so we don't need to double clutch.
Heel/toe is a different technique by which to rev match engine speed to vehicle speed for a given gear, when you need to brake while at the same time changing to a lower gear.

The DCT, and all other dual clutch trannies, are programmed to do what a driver would do.
The system automatically performs rev matching on decel and accel, as I'm sure you're already aware.
It just does it faster and better than pretty much all drivers.

Last edited by RPM90; 10-08-2011 at 08:28 PM.
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      10-08-2011, 08:09 PM   #31
RPM90
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GaryS View Post
Lots of people here have replaced the OEM brake pads with aftermarket pads to get rid of the extreme initial bite, and it works. The difference is like night and day.
Cool. If it works for you, then that's all that matters.
I just offered that info to explain why some may feel initial braking may be too grabby.

Personally, I don't feel the OEM brakes have too much initial bite at all.
I think the OEM brakes are excellent for a DD sporty automobile, and they modulate very well.

If I were tracking the car, I would change the pads no question.
For my daily driving and back road fun the OEM's setup works great.
The only time I've felt a hard initial bite or grab is when the brake boost activates, but that has worked great for me as well.
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      10-09-2011, 12:39 AM   #32
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I find it extremely easy to heal toe in a 135i. My old car which was a 2000 audi s4 was much much harder.
you and I have very similar car histories. I went from an 01 S4 to my 135. Were you on Zine or Audiworld?
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      10-09-2011, 07:38 AM   #33
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RPM90 View Post
.
.
.
Double clutching and heel/toe are not the same thing.
Dbl clutching is a technique used in old manuals that didn't have syncro's.
Double clutching is a technique to achieve rev-matching the transmission's *intermediate shaft* to the output gear that is to be selected.
In a modern manual trans we have syncros so we don't need to double clutch.
Heel/toe is a different technique by which to rev match engine speed to vehicle speed for a given gear, when you need to brake while at the same time changing to a lower gear.
.
.
.
You (mostly) speak the truth, however given this point I assume you don't double clutch even in spirited driving. Personally, I wouldn't dream of not double clutching regardless of syncro's or not. I suggest you give it a go - the difference it makes to gear engagement is substantial (how do you find it changing from 2nd into 1st without double clutching?)

I don't doubt that the Nissan system does a great job of matching revs but really that is the easiest part of the whole process. That is why I say it is of dubious value if you are really serious about changing gears AND preserving your gearbox.

Remind me not to buy a second hand manual car from you
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      10-09-2011, 12:53 PM   #34
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you and I have very similar car histories. I went from an 01 S4 to my 135. Were you on Zine or Audiworld?
haha thats funny, i was on audizine, same user name.. Had a black b5 s4 stage 2+. You will probably recognize the car i posted a lot of pictures up.

http://www.flickr.com/photos/mgbigai...7622374396854/
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