BMW 1 Series Coupe Forum / 1 Series Convertible Forum (1M / tii / 135i / 128i / Coupe / Cabrio / Hatchback) (BMW E82 E88 128i 130i 135i)
 





 

Post Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
      10-24-2011, 06:41 AM   #1
E82M
Enlisted Member
 
Drives: 2011 AW E82 M
Join Date: Sep 2011
Location: Vancouver, BC Canada

Posts: 46
iTrader: (0)

Moton Clubsport vs. KW Clubsport ?

hey guys,

I'm trying to decide on coil overs for my 1 //M.
The car will be pretty much weekend / trackday car.
Previously, I had KW V3 on my 370z and I was quite satisfied with the KW compared to other popular brands for 370z such as TEIN Monoflex and such.

Okay, let me get to the question.

I'm trying to pick one. Either Moton or KW.
I know Moton is more track focused suspension.
My concern is the ride comfort (little concern), is it unbearable to drive on the streets?

Help me to decide.
E82M is offline  
0
Reply With Quote
      10-24-2011, 08:49 AM   #2
M3 Adjuster
Brigadier General
 
Drives: 1988 M3 gone .. 1M HERE!!
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: Dallas, Tx

Posts: 3,311
iTrader: (0)

to me this is a no brainer... Go with Moton.
__________________
Lone Star BMW CCA Chapter president, Chief Driving Instructor
M3 Adjuster is online now  
0
Reply With Quote
      10-24-2011, 08:54 AM   #3
Oaktree
Second Lieutenant
 
Oaktree's Avatar
 
Drives: 2012 X5 - 2010 M3 - 1999 M3
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Minnesota

Posts: 218
iTrader: (1)

Why not AST? They should be in the consideration set. Moton over KW though.
Oaktree is offline  
0
Reply With Quote
      10-24-2011, 09:46 AM   #4
Advevo
Captain
 
Drives: White 1M
Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: Country where the taxes are too high!!

Posts: 899
iTrader: (0)

Just wait a few weeks.

JRZ has 1M coupe suspension on it s way.

I am getting a JRZ suspension when they are ready to go on the car.

This suspension is also made as a compromise between road and track days. The bump and rebound can be adjusted also.

When they arrive i make pictures of them.

I be on the Nurburgring on 15 november to see how they go overthere i make a movie then also. Try to find a good setup with the bump and rebound.
Advevo is offline  
0
Reply With Quote
      11-03-2011, 01:27 AM   #5
rzm3
Moderator
 
rzm3's Avatar
 
Drives: E92 M3
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: USA

Posts: 4,598
iTrader: (14)

Two different categories of products, and very different price range.

Moton Clubsport are racing dampers. They are sold as dampers only, and you (or your vendor) add camber plates, mounts, springs, etc. to make it work. Moton Clubsport are monotube with remote reservoirs and requires N2 pressurization.

KW Clubsport is a hybrid street/track set up. A mix between the V3 and the Competition line. They are sold as a plug and play kit. No remote reservoirs.

In terms of ride, it all depends on your set up, e.g. springs, damper settings, mounts etc. Either can be made to be comfortable on the streets.
__________________
E92 M3 DCT - AiM EVO4 Data Logger / AiM SmartyCam HD / KW Competition 2-Way / OMP ARS Racing Seats / Brembo GT 365 / Pagid Yellow RS-29 / Rear Seats Delete
rzm3 is offline  
0
Reply With Quote
      11-03-2011, 06:16 AM   #6
LateralG'z
Private
 
LateralG'z's Avatar
 
Drives: Hopefully a 1M
Join Date: Oct 2011
Location: USA

Posts: 79
iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by rldzhao View Post
Two different categories of products, and very different price range.

Moton Clubsport are racing dampers. They are sold as dampers only, and you (or your vendor) add camber plates, mounts, springs, etc. to make it work. Moton Clubsport are monotube with remote reservoirs and requires N2 pressurization.

KW Clubsport is a hybrid street/track set up. A mix between the V3 and the Competition line. They are sold as a plug and play kit. No remote reservoirs.

In terms of ride, it all depends on your set up, e.g. springs, damper settings, mounts etc. Either can be made to be comfortable on the streets.
Good to know and thanks for the clarification
LateralG'z is offline  
0
Reply With Quote
      11-03-2011, 06:41 AM   #7
Pete_vB
Captain
 
Pete_vB's Avatar
 
Drives: '69 GT3, 1M, 912, R32
Join Date: Nov 2010
Location: SF Bay Area, Shenzhen, Oman

Posts: 767
iTrader: (0)

Does anyone know what the stock/ oem dampers are?

We should probably throw Ohlins in the mix too- maybe the best design out there with their race products.

I would like to learn more about the offerings specific to the 1M/ M3, especially in the dual use street/ track range. I've had JRZ 1x, JRZ 2x and Moton 3x on previous Porsches, but always full-race, never club-sport. My impressions are that Moton and JRZ are very similar in internal design, but that Moton is slightly higher quality. I tend to feel that AST is in the same range depending on model, KW is one rung down and the Ohlins one rung above everything else mentioned.

Has anyone done or seen a good shock-dyno of a 1M stock?
__________________
1M, 1969 Porsche 911 w/ 997 GT3 Cup Motor (435hp & 2,100 lbs)
Pete_vB is offline   United_States
0
Reply With Quote
      11-03-2011, 06:56 AM   #8
eeghie
Kind of a Big Deal
 
Drives: an 1M not often enough
Join Date: Jan 2011
Location: between Unlimited and Hard to Get

Posts: 1,150
iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Pete_vB View Post
Does anyone know what the stock/ oem dampers are?

We should probably throw Ohlins in the mix too- maybe the best design out there with their race products.

I would like to learn more about the offerings specific to the 1M/ M3, especially in the dual use street/ track range. I've had JRZ 1x, JRZ 2x and Moton 3x on previous Porsches, but always full-race, never club-sport. My impressions are that Moton and JRZ are very similar in internal design, but that Moton is slightly higher quality. I tend to feel that AST is in the same range depending on model, KW is one rung down and the Ohlins one rung above everything else mentioned.

Has anyone done or seen a good shock-dyno of a 1M stock?
I'll post the shock specification graphs as soon as I have some time to finish my ED post (in a comparative graph with the M3 ZCP EDC shocks), they are made by BMW's longtime shock supplier ZF/ Sachs/ Boge. The 1M front shocks are equal to E9X M3 ZCP shocks, IIRC the rear shocks are unique to the 1M
eeghie is offline  
0
Reply With Quote
      11-03-2011, 07:16 AM   #9
Pete_vB
Captain
 
Pete_vB's Avatar
 
Drives: '69 GT3, 1M, 912, R32
Join Date: Nov 2010
Location: SF Bay Area, Shenzhen, Oman

Posts: 767
iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by eeghie View Post
I'll post the shock specification graphs as soon as I have some time to finish my ED post (in a comparative graph with the M3 ZCP EDC shocks), they are made by BMW's longtime shock supplier ZF/ Sachs/ Boge. The 1M front shocks are equal to E9X M3 ZCP shocks, IIRC the rear shocks are unique to the 1M
Excellent. Do you also know the 1M spring rates? That'd give a very nice place to start.
__________________
1M, 1969 Porsche 911 w/ 997 GT3 Cup Motor (435hp & 2,100 lbs)
Pete_vB is offline   United_States
0
Reply With Quote
      11-03-2011, 08:23 AM   #10
robertm
Captain
 
Drives: BSM 1M
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: dfw

Posts: 874
iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Pete_vB View Post
. My impressions are that Moton and JRZ are very similar in internal design, but that Moton is slightly higher quality. I tend to feel that AST is in the same range depending on model, KW is one rung down and the Ohlins one rung above everything else mentioned.
That sounds about right to me too. Uncoincidentally that correlates nicely with their cost of entry too

Suspensions are lot like any other mechanized product. The more you spend the better performing and happier you will be. All of the brands mentioned above make a quality product. Spending more will get you a better lap time though and better overall ride in general (comparing apples to apples, not street vs track focused units).

I can still remember when the high end shocks like JRZs first hit the prepared club racing scene. The guys running them were suddenly seconds up on the rest of the field.

robertm is offline  
0
Reply With Quote
      11-03-2011, 11:55 AM   #11
eeghie
Kind of a Big Deal
 
Drives: an 1M not often enough
Join Date: Jan 2011
Location: between Unlimited and Hard to Get

Posts: 1,150
iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Pete_vB View Post
Excellent. Do you also know the 1M spring rates? That'd give a very nice place to start.
Not looking to lower the car nor change its weight, thus have not looked into the spring (-rates). OEM spring rates are quite tough to get a hold off as BMW uses a configuration dependent selection per corner (fi per corner stock M3 can use any out of 5 different spring rates depending on weigth and location of the selected options).
eeghie is offline  
0
Reply With Quote
      11-03-2011, 12:48 PM   #12
rzm3
Moderator
 
rzm3's Avatar
 
Drives: E92 M3
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: USA

Posts: 4,598
iTrader: (14)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Pete_vB View Post
We should probably throw Ohlins in the mix too- maybe the best design out there with their race products.

I would like to learn more about the offerings specific to the 1M/ M3, especially in the dual use street/ track range. I've had JRZ 1x, JRZ 2x and Moton 3x on previous Porsches, but always full-race, never club-sport. My impressions are that Moton and JRZ are very similar in internal design, but that Moton is slightly higher quality. I tend to feel that AST is in the same range depending on model, KW is one rung down and the Ohlins one rung above everything else mentioned.

Has anyone done or seen a good shock-dyno of a 1M stock?
The founder of Moton, Jerome, used to be part of JRZ. That's why their constructions are similar. Rebound is controlled on the shock via opening/closing small orifices and compression is controlled on the remove reservoir.

Last year, Moton upgraded its Clubsport line so now it is basically its Motorsports 2-way. I had this set up on my M3, and the beauty of Moton is its wide range of damping adjustment which really suits cars at the club sport level because you can significantly up/down rate your springs without revalving the shocks. Moreover, the dampers can be set to be very soft which gives a good ride. In terms of noise my dampers squealed a little due to N2 pressurization and the seals.

Ohlins (TTX line) are a completely different animal. They are a twin tube design with a solid piston. Damping is completely controlled by external valves mounted on the body of the dampers. Some of them feature through-rod, meaning the shaft goes through the entire shock, so no damping fluid is displaced inside the damper during compression and rebound. This means that the lift force due to pressurization is always the same and you can precisesly control the damping curves. These dampers are used on the ALMS M3s.

I've tried many suspension kits/springs on my 335/M3 (H&R coilover, springs, Dinan springs, Moton Street Sport, Moton Clubsport, KW Clubsport and KW Competition), and besides dampers, what is just as important is how your suspension is spec'd and set up (i.e. spring rates, damping settings, etc). You can have the best dampers in the world, but without a proper set up they will do you no good.
__________________
E92 M3 DCT - AiM EVO4 Data Logger / AiM SmartyCam HD / KW Competition 2-Way / OMP ARS Racing Seats / Brembo GT 365 / Pagid Yellow RS-29 / Rear Seats Delete
rzm3 is offline  
0
Reply With Quote
      11-03-2011, 12:57 PM   #13
MDORPHN
Colonel
 
Drives: AW 1M
Join Date: Oct 2010
Location: Wash, DC

Posts: 2,413
iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by rldzhao View Post
The founder of Moton, Jerome, used to be part of JRZ. That's why their constructions are similar. Rebound is controlled on the shock via opening/closing small orifices and compression is controlled on the remove reservoir.

Last year, Moton upgraded its Clubsport line so now it is basically its Motorsports 2-way. I had this set up on my M3, and the beauty of Moton is its wide range of damping adjustment which really suits cars at the club sport level because you can significantly up/down rate your springs without revalving the shocks. Moreover, the dampers can be set to be very soft which gives a good ride. In terms of noise my dampers squealed a little due to N2 pressurization and the seals.

Ohlins (TTX line) are a completely different animal. They are a twin tube design with a solid piston. Damping is completely controlled by external valves mounted on the body of the dampers. Some of them feature through-rod, meaning the shaft goes through the entire shock, so no damping fluid is displaced inside the damper during compression and rebound. This means that the lift force due to pressurization is always the same and you can precisesly control the damping curves. These dampers are used on the ALMS M3s.

I've tried many suspension kits/springs on my 335/M3 (H&R coilover, springs, Dinan springs, Moton Street Sport, Moton Clubsport, KW Clubsport and KW Competition), and besides dampers, what is just as important is how your suspension is spec'd and set up (i.e. spring rates, damping settings, etc). You can have the best dampers in the world, but without a proper set up they will do you no good.
Great post.

How would you compare AST? Do they operate similarly with orifices instead of shim stacks?

Also, what, if any, changes to do you expect at Moton now that it has been acquired by AST? FWIW, I understand that a couple of employees recently left Moton's US operations to start their own company.

Thanks.

Neil
MDORPHN is offline  
0
Reply With Quote
      11-03-2011, 12:58 PM   #14
EIN M
Second Lieutenant
 
Drives: BMW 1M
Join Date: Oct 2011
Location: Dallas, TX

Posts: 253
iTrader: (0)

rldzhao....buddy your M3 looks WICKED!!!
EIN M is offline   United_States
0
Reply With Quote
      11-03-2011, 01:08 PM   #15
rzm3
Moderator
 
rzm3's Avatar
 
Drives: E92 M3
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: USA

Posts: 4,598
iTrader: (14)

Quote:
Originally Posted by MDORPHN View Post
Great post.

How would you compare AST? Do they operate similarly with orifices instead of shim stacks?

Also, what, if any, changes to do you expect at Moton now that it has been acquired by AST? FWIW, I understand that a couple of employees recently left Moton's US operations to start their own company.

Thanks.

Neil
I have limited experience with AST, and therefore cannot comment. But I have a few friends who have AST and they like it very much.

AST's first priority was to get Moton's racing dampers back in production and resume their services. As far as the future I suppose Moton will continue to focus on high-end racing dampers.
__________________
E92 M3 DCT - AiM EVO4 Data Logger / AiM SmartyCam HD / KW Competition 2-Way / OMP ARS Racing Seats / Brembo GT 365 / Pagid Yellow RS-29 / Rear Seats Delete
rzm3 is offline  
0
Reply With Quote
      11-03-2011, 01:16 PM   #16
MDORPHN
Colonel
 
Drives: AW 1M
Join Date: Oct 2010
Location: Wash, DC

Posts: 2,413
iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by rldzhao View Post
I have limited experience with AST, and therefore cannot comment. But I have a few friends who have AST and they like it very much.

AST's first priority was to get Moton's racing dampers back in production and resume their services. As far as the future I suppose Moton will continue to focus on high-end racing dampers.
Thanks.

I ran AST 4200s on my previous car (a much-modified '99 M Coupe) and liked them. Just not sure how their "internals" compared to the Motons.

Neil
MDORPHN is offline  
0
Reply With Quote
      11-03-2011, 01:40 PM   #17
eeghie
Kind of a Big Deal
 
Drives: an 1M not often enough
Join Date: Jan 2011
Location: between Unlimited and Hard to Get

Posts: 1,150
iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Pete_vB View Post
Does anyone know what the stock/ oem dampers are?

...

Has anyone done or seen a good shock-dyno of a 1M stock?
These are shock specs of the stock 1M suspension (not Dyno), Would be interested in graphs of the threat title shocks, can someone post?
Attached Images
  

Last edited by eeghie; 11-15-2011 at 04:53 PM.
eeghie is offline  
0
Reply With Quote
      11-03-2011, 02:56 PM   #18
Pete_vB
Captain
 
Pete_vB's Avatar
 
Drives: '69 GT3, 1M, 912, R32
Join Date: Nov 2010
Location: SF Bay Area, Shenzhen, Oman

Posts: 767
iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by eeghie View Post
These are shock specs of the stock 1M suspension (not Dyno), Would be interested in graphs of the threat title shocks, can someone post?
Holy compression damping, Batman!

Where did these come from? I must say I'm pretty surprised- I'm not familiar with BMW's shock tuning, but it almost looks to me like rebound and compression are reversed!
__________________
1M, 1969 Porsche 911 w/ 997 GT3 Cup Motor (435hp & 2,100 lbs)
Pete_vB is offline   United_States
0
Reply With Quote
      11-03-2011, 06:55 PM   #19
eeghie
Kind of a Big Deal
 
Drives: an 1M not often enough
Join Date: Jan 2011
Location: between Unlimited and Hard to Get

Posts: 1,150
iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Pete_vB View Post
... I'm pretty surprised- I'm not familiar with BMW's shock tuning ...
+1

What struck me is that although the weight of the car is in perfect balance, the rear shocks are quite a bit stiffer R/F = ~3800[Ns/m]/~2800[Ns/m] = ~136%. This ratio is quite larger than fi the M3 shocks where front and rear shock compliance is largely equal (referring to E9X M3 ZCP shocks).

In service to OP's selection of upgraded shocks, I hope the more experienced shock-ers among us can also help all of us understand the 1M OEM setup better.

I would assume significant reasons could be to battle understeer (car will roll & pitch towards the outer corner front wheel) and to prevent excessive wheel torque jitter ???
eeghie is offline  
0
Reply With Quote
      11-03-2011, 07:06 PM   #20
Pete_vB
Captain
 
Pete_vB's Avatar
 
Drives: '69 GT3, 1M, 912, R32
Join Date: Nov 2010
Location: SF Bay Area, Shenzhen, Oman

Posts: 767
iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by eeghie View Post
+1

What struck me is that although the weight of the car is in perfect balance, the rear shocks are quite a bit stiffer R/F = 136%. This ratio is quite larger than fi the M3 shocks where front and rear shock compliance is largely equal (referring to E9X M3 ZCP shocks).

In service to OP's selection of upgraded shocks, I hope the more experienced shock-ers among us can also help all of us understand the 1M OEM setup better.

I would assume significant reasons could be to battle understeer (car will roll & pitch towards the outer corner front wheel) and to prevent excessive wheel torque jitter ???
So first, I am fairly convinced that rebound and compression are mis-labeled on those graphs. I ran some simulation numbers and came out with rebound higher than compression (which is the norm), so I wouldn't want to read to much into these before that can be double checked.

Second, I'm not surprised the rear is overall stiffer than the front. Assuming the 1M's motion ratios are identical to the M3s (purely an assumption on my part based on what I've read about the M3 and 1M sharing parts) then the rear motion ratio is something like .56 vs a front of .96. This means the rear shocks would need to be much stiffer at the shock itself to have identical values at the wheel. Quick rough simulation suggested rear shocks almost 3x stiffer than the fronts would be about right- these are less than 2x, suggesting they may be softening up the rear (likely both springs and shocks?) to help put power down. Seems to make sense.

Could you post the M3 values you have as well? Any way to double check bounce if and rebound are labeled right?
__________________
1M, 1969 Porsche 911 w/ 997 GT3 Cup Motor (435hp & 2,100 lbs)
Pete_vB is offline   United_States
0
Reply With Quote
      11-03-2011, 07:32 PM   #21
rzm3
Moderator
 
rzm3's Avatar
 
Drives: E92 M3
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: USA

Posts: 4,598
iTrader: (14)

Quote:
Originally Posted by eeghie View Post
These are shock specs of the stock 1M suspension (not Dyno), Would be interested in graphs of the threat title shocks, can someone post?
Do you have the raw data? Graphs are a little hard to read
__________________
E92 M3 DCT - AiM EVO4 Data Logger / AiM SmartyCam HD / KW Competition 2-Way / OMP ARS Racing Seats / Brembo GT 365 / Pagid Yellow RS-29 / Rear Seats Delete
rzm3 is offline  
0
Reply With Quote
      11-03-2011, 07:49 PM   #22
MDORPHN
Colonel
 
Drives: AW 1M
Join Date: Oct 2010
Location: Wash, DC

Posts: 2,413
iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Pete_vB View Post
Excellent. Do you also know the 1M spring rates? That'd give a very nice place to start.
A well-known suspension tuner who tested the stock springs told me that the fronts are in the 220-240 range and the rears 540-550.

Neil
MDORPHN is offline  
0
Reply With Quote
Post Reply

Bookmarks

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 12:50 AM.




1addicts
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.7.0
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
1Addicts.com, BIMMERPOST.com, E90Post.com, F30Post.com, M3Post.com, ZPost.com, 5Post.com, 6Post.com, 7Post.com, XBimmers.com logo and trademark are properties of BIMMERPOST