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      10-28-2011, 06:19 PM   #23
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Glad you and the car are okay. Winters went on both cars today - got the gong and the snowflake, respectively, in each car last week and hope to keep both between the ditches with cold weather and snow on the way.

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      10-28-2011, 06:25 PM   #24
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its still a little early for winters in NY... but soon... funny thing is i have one more track weekend on the 12-13 of november.... i cant put my snows on till them because my track tires are mounted on my winter wheels ( double duty) .....oh well just hope that it dont snow or get bitterly cold till then..
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      10-29-2011, 04:20 PM   #25
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      10-30-2011, 11:48 AM   #26
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Tire pressure, it should be down to 30 or 32 if you did not pump it when the temp suddenly dropped. But it's good that you are ok!
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      11-01-2011, 10:48 PM   #27
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Originally Posted by BrokenVert View Post
No fail on you. Its all situational.

over 3 inches of snow and wider tires are more advantageous.

under that and skinnier tires are better.
Really??


Myth: Wide tires provide better traction under all weather conditions. In fact, putting oversize snow tires on a car delivers better snow traction.
Fact: The opposite is actually true. Wide tires tend to "float" on deep snow, and the tread lugs never have a chance to "dig" through to the road surface to gain traction. Narrow tires are a better option in deep snow. The tire acts similarly to a knife cutting through butter; the blade works best when using the narrow edge to push through the butter rather than the wide flat side of the blade.

Read more:
http://www.motortrend.com/womt/112_9...#ixzz1cW526sMy
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      11-01-2011, 11:51 PM   #28
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Originally Posted by bimmerboy View Post
Really??


Myth: Wide tires provide better traction under all weather conditions. In fact, putting oversize snow tires on a car delivers better snow traction.
Fact: The opposite is actually true. Wide tires tend to "float" on deep snow, and the tread lugs never have a chance to "dig" through to the road surface to gain traction. Narrow tires are a better option in deep snow. The tire acts similarly to a knife cutting through butter; the blade works best when using the narrow edge to push through the butter rather than the wide flat side of the blade.

Read more:
http://www.motortrend.com/womt/112_9...#ixzz1cW526sMy
Did you catch my qualification? Think about it this way.

Whats the ground clearance on your car? 2-3 inches on average? So what exactly are you punching through? Snow to hit your chassis rails?


Like I said, it depends on what kind of snow you get and how much. In Syracuse I went for the wider rears (245) this winter, because through experience I learned that 225s dont punch through, so why am I putting myself at a disadvantage?

Digging through is generally a good approach for most people who experience light snow...but there comes a point where you simply wont be heavy enough to go through it all, thats when you go for wider tires.


Hence my general correlation on snow depths that I will repeat.

less than 2-3 inches go for a square setup, more than that and you should be looking at wider tires.
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      11-02-2011, 10:07 PM   #29
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just kidding. i realize what i said was just an incorrect generalization. :P
Not really a generalization, but just incorrect.
Narrower tires are better in snow and rain.
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      11-02-2011, 10:12 PM   #30
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Originally Posted by BrokenVert View Post
No fail on you. Its all situational.

over 3 inches of snow and wider tires are more advantageous.

under that and skinnier tires are better.
I'll have to disagree with you there.
If you have some tested data that shows your assertion is correct, please post.

Barring that, narrower foot print allows the tire to cut a better track in the snow, and the deeper the more advantage to narrower.
A wider tire tends to ride on top of the snow.
Think a snow shoe vs a ski, or a snowmobile vs a dirt bike on snow.
The narrower ski and tire cut into the snow, while the others ride on top.
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      11-02-2011, 10:13 PM   #31
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bimmerboy View Post
Really??


Myth: Wide tires provide better traction under all weather conditions. In fact, putting oversize snow tires on a car delivers better snow traction.
Fact: The opposite is actually true. Wide tires tend to "float" on deep snow, and the tread lugs never have a chance to "dig" through to the road surface to gain traction. Narrow tires are a better option in deep snow. The tire acts similarly to a knife cutting through butter; the blade works best when using the narrow edge to push through the butter rather than the wide flat side of the blade.

Read more:
http://www.motortrend.com/womt/112_9...#ixzz1cW526sMy
Quote:
Originally Posted by BrokenVert View Post
Did you catch my qualification? Think about it this way.

Whats the ground clearance on your car? 2-3 inches on average? So what exactly are you punching through? Snow to hit your chassis rails?


Like I said, it depends on what kind of snow you get and how much. In Syracuse I went for the wider rears (245) this winter, because through experience I learned that 225s dont punch through, so why am I putting myself at a disadvantage?

Digging through is generally a good approach for most people who experience light snow...but there comes a point where you simply wont be heavy enough to go through it all, thats when you go for wider tires.


Hence my general correlation on snow depths that I will repeat.

less than 2-3 inches go for a square setup, more than that and you should be looking at wider tires.
I've always been told that the thinner the better on snow tires, but I agree with Matt (brokenvert). This is true up to a certain extent. The thinner tire will 'cut through' the snow, that's the wording everyone uses who follows this adage. But when the snow is too thick or deep to "cut through" then there is no point to have a thin tire, get as thick as you can and grab on to whatever traction you can get! But either way, our cars have pretty thick rims/tires. Not thick like on a 'vette or something (man those rear tires look GOOD), but thick because we need to clear the brakes. Same reason we can't run steelies. So I'll generally try to stay thin for winter tires, but not go crazy over it.

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Originally Posted by RPM90 View Post
Man that sucks.
Weather around Chicago has been a pretty mild fall season.

Your experience is a major reason why I run all seasons.
Not the best tire for each season, but the best tire for all seasons.
Thanks man.

I can't bring myself to run all seasons. They're nice but not ideal. I would do it for the ease of it, but my car has so much trouble keeping traction already that I wouldn't want to chance anything. Need the best grip possible for the summer AND the winter or I'll find myself disappointed in summer performance, and in a ditch come december. Not to mention my traction control, stability control, and on-and-off the ABS haven't been really working for a month now. Oops..

Plus, running 2 setups I can have my matte black rims with red pinstripe for the summer, and my gloss black with chrome lip for the winter. Different looks for different seasons
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      11-02-2011, 10:26 PM   #32
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Thanks man.

I can't bring myself to run all seasons. They're nice but not ideal. I would do it for the ease of it, but my car has so much trouble keeping traction already that I wouldn't want to chance anything. Need the best grip possible for the summer AND the winter or I'll find myself disappointed in summer performance, and in a ditch come december. Not to mention my traction control, stability control, and on-and-off the ABS haven't been really working for a month now. Oops..

Plus, running 2 setups I can have my matte black rims with red pinstripe for the summer, and my gloss black with chrome lip for the winter. Different looks for different seasons
I understand completely.

For me it's more about not having to deal with changing and when to change.
I don't drive hard enough on the street that I've over-driven my tires capability.
I've come to the limit, and if I had a dedicated summer performance tire I'd have more to play with.

But, it's a compromise I make given the way I drive and the whacked weather conditions living around the Great Lakes region.
The other day we had mostly sunny skies and it was cold.
From seemingly nowhere we had a hail storm for about 5-10 minutes, and then the sun was out again.

Don't like the weather around the Chicago area, well just wait a few minutes, as we like to say.
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      11-02-2011, 10:26 PM   #33
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I'll have to disagree with you there.
If you have some tested data that shows your assertion is correct, please post.

Barring that, narrower foot print allows the tire to cut a better track in the snow, and the deeper the more advantage to narrower.
A wider tire tends to ride on top of the snow.
Think a snow shoe vs a ski, or a snowmobile vs a dirt bike on snow.
The narrower ski and tire cut into the snow, while the others ride on top.
Do you live in the snowiest city in the Continental US? My tested data is that of me living several winters there.

Snow sticks to snow better than it sticks to rubber, thats the principal that winter tires are designed around. This is why they have all of those narrow channels and groves, its to catch snow, so that the tire can have grip.

Once the snow gets too deep to cut through, then youre cutting into more snow, at that point its all about foot print, and thats where wider tires are better.


If skinnier is always better than why do snowshoes exist? Once the snow gets too deep you begin to mire yourself on skinny tires. You end up with a higher chance of being stuck at that point.


Like I keep saying. Its entirely dependent on how deep your average snow is and what type of snow it is. You have to figure out which is best For You. Thats the entirety of my point.



So again, driving home this point for the third time now, for shallow snow, a skinny tire is better, because you can break through the snow to the asphalt and in deep snow (For me that line is 3") youre better off with a wider tire, to stay on top of the snow and reduce your chances of digging in, which is a threat if you get a bit too excited with your right foot.
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      11-02-2011, 10:28 PM   #34
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I'll have to disagree with you there.
If you have some tested data that shows your assertion is correct, please post.

Barring that, narrower foot print allows the tire to cut a better track in the snow, and the deeper the more advantage to narrower.
A wider tire tends to ride on top of the snow.
Think a snow shoe vs a ski, or a snowmobile vs a dirt bike on snow.
The narrower ski and tire cut into the snow, while the others ride on top.
Do you live in the snowiest city in the Continental US? My tested data is that of me living several winters there.

Snow sticks to snow better than it sticks to rubber, thats the principal that winter tires are designed around. This is why they have all of those narrow channels and groves, its to catch snow, so that the tire can have grip.

Once the snow gets too deep to cut through, then youre cutting into more snow, at that point its all about foot print, and thats where wider tires are better.


If skinnier is always better than why do snowshoes exist? The answer is obvious...its more difficult to walk through deep snow because you sink into too far. Once the snow gets too deep you begin to mire yourself on skinny tires. You end up with a higher chance of being stuck at that point because you cut through snow...into more snow. You see how that gets you stuck?


Like I keep saying. Its entirely dependent on how deep your average snow is and what type of snow it is. You have to figure out which is best For You. Thats the entirety of my point.



So again, driving home this point for the third time now, for shallow snow, a skinny tire is better, because you can break through the snow to the asphalt and in deep snow (For me that line is 3") youre better off with a wider tire, to stay on top of the snow and reduce your chances of digging in, which is a threat if you get a bit too excited with your right foot.
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      11-02-2011, 10:44 PM   #35
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Originally Posted by BrokenVert View Post
Do you live in the snowiest city in the Continental US? My tested data is that of me living several winters there.

Snow sticks to snow better than it sticks to rubber, thats the principal that winter tires are designed around. This is why they have all of those narrow channels and groves, its to catch snow, so that the tire can have grip.

Once the snow gets too deep to cut through, then youre cutting into more snow, at that point its all about foot print, and thats where wider tires are better.


If skinnier is always better than why do snowshoes exist? Once the snow gets too deep you begin to mire yourself on skinny tires. You end up with a higher chance of being stuck at that point.


Like I keep saying. Its entirely dependent on how deep your average snow is and what type of snow it is. You have to figure out which is best For You. Thats the entirety of my point.



So again, driving home this point for the third time now, for shallow snow, a skinny tire is better, because you can break through the snow to the asphalt and in deep snow (For me that line is 3") youre better off with a wider tire, to stay on top of the snow and reduce your chances of digging in, which is a threat if you get a bit too excited with your right foot.
Well, you can keep repeating the same thing over 10 times, but it won't make it true.

What works "for you" works for some things, usually things related to opinion. But, physics is not opinion based regardless of what those flat earth people think.

The snow shoe thing is about distributing your weight over a larger area, precisely for the reason that your narrower foot digs down and into the snow.
So, which actually gives you the ability to apply more forward torque, the snow shoe or your foot?
It's your foot, because it actually has traction as it can push against the snow. The snow shoe rides ON TOP of the snow.

Now, less we get confused here, a snow shoe is purpose built to get a person above the snow so that you need less force/power to walk around.

The comparison only works for demonstrating how width relates to digging into snow. The snow shoe works better for a human being.

A better argument for wider tires might be when we're dealing with compacted snow, where there is a lot of snow under the hard top layer.
At that point, the snow surface is more like lightly snowed over road.
In that condition I could see a wider tire possibly giving more traction.
But, in fresh snow that's 2" or 8" a narrower tire will dig in better and give better grip.

To answer your initial question, I live in the Chicago area south and east of the city, right under the finger of Lake Michigan.
Do we get a lot of snow?
Yeah, I'd say. Is it the snowiest area in the US, no.

BTW, as I said, I'm open to reading testing that shows otherwise.
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      11-03-2011, 06:26 AM   #36
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This car becomes a snow plow and is rendered largely useless in deep snow (6"+) so it really only matters how the tires perform in small amounts of snow. Narrower tire is optimal in smaller amounts of snow which is really all we can drive in anyway. How it performs in a foot of snow is simple... it doesn't.
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      11-03-2011, 06:46 AM   #37
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Snow, what's that?
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      11-03-2011, 07:23 AM   #38
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I had a 1985 Mustang GT with 225s all around (similar to photo) and as soon as the snow hit in Plattsburgh NY...at the top of the state, I would need 2-3 guys to give me a push to even get out of my parking spot.... Forget about driving down the road once it snowed. Then after I put real snow tires on, skinny tires in fact, I had a high-powered mule. We'd get 2-3 feet of snow per snowstorm and the mustang was surefooted and zero accidents.

So, can't really say whether or not wider snow tires would have performed as well, I just know what "real upstate" new yorkers would recommend and it wasn't go wide...it was go skinny.

I'll be interested to see how your 245s work.
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      11-03-2011, 07:34 AM   #39
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:facepalm:

Youre focusing on one point of my argument, also in a sense, you agreed with my point.

First off "For You" isnt opinion based. It means choose the right tires for your area's climate, amount of snow, and type of snow.


And yes a narrow footprint digs in and is better a lot of the time, I havent denied that. But when you get into deep snow you keep digging, eventually you dont find any road, so youve dug a hole for your rear wheels that you cant get out of (thats called being stuck) and it happens in deep snow if you penetrate too far, hence why wider tires are better in deeper snow and yes I know that they ride ON TOP as you pointed out, thats the whole point! Its the same reason why man invented the snowshoe, or did you just ignore my entire rational on that?


Quote:
Originally Posted by RPM90 View Post
Well, you can keep repeating the same thing over 10 times, but it won't make it true.

What works "for you" works for some things, usually things related to opinion. But, physics is not opinion based regardless of what those flat earth people think.

The snow shoe thing is about distributing your weight over a larger area, precisely for the reason that your narrower foot digs down and into the snow.
So, which actually gives you the ability to apply more forward torque, the snow shoe or your foot?
It's your foot, because it actually has traction as it can push against the snow. The snow shoe rides ON TOP of the snow.

Now, less we get confused here, a snow shoe is purpose built to get a person above the snow so that you need less force/power to walk around.

The comparison only works for demonstrating how width relates to digging into snow. The snow shoe works better for a human being.

A better argument for wider tires might be when we're dealing with compacted snow, where there is a lot of snow under the hard top layer.
At that point, the snow surface is more like lightly snowed over road.
In that condition I could see a wider tire possibly giving more traction.
But, in fresh snow that's 2" or 8" a narrower tire will dig in better and give better grip.

To answer your initial question, I live in the Chicago area south and east of the city, right under the finger of Lake Michigan.
Do we get a lot of snow?
Yeah, I'd say. Is it the snowiest area in the US, no.

BTW, as I said, I'm open to reading testing that shows otherwise.
Learning is a life long process.
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      11-03-2011, 08:29 AM   #40
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Ice is ice... unless you have studded snows, you would have had the same outcome.
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I am also not sure how much difference winter tires would have made.
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Originally Posted by BrokenVert View Post
over 3 inches of snow and wider tires are more advantageous. under that and skinnier tires are better.
No, no, no.

Winter tires are made of a compound that stays soft in cold weather, plus they have thousands of tiny cuts in the tread that allows the blocks to "grab" the ice.

BrokenVert - I can speculate your reasoning is that, above 3 inches, a tire has no chance of digging-through to the road surface, so the advantage of having a wider tire with more tread grooves dominates. But the laws of physics still hold, and a skinny tire always puts more of the car's weight down per square inch. Maybe when they start including toboggans in the winter olympic slalom, I'll be convinced otherwise.
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      11-03-2011, 08:35 AM   #41
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I had a 1985 Mustang GT with 225s all around (similar to photo) and as soon as the snow hit in Plattsburgh NY...at the top of the state, I would need 2-3 guys to give me a push to even get out of my parking spot.... Forget about driving down the road once it snowed. Then after I put real snow tires on, skinny tires in fact, I had a high-powered mule. We'd get 2-3 feet of snow per snowstorm and the mustang was surefooted and zero accidents.

So, can't really say whether or not wider snow tires would have performed as well, I just know what "real upstate" new yorkers would recommend and it wasn't go wide...it was go skinny.

I'll be interested to see how your 245s work.
I had that car! Same year, same color. In the winter, it wouldn't even move on the driveway, and I'd switch to my RWD Mercedes 190E with skinny snows.
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      11-03-2011, 08:59 AM   #42
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No, no, no.

Winter tires are made of a compound that stays soft in cold weather, plus they have thousands of tiny cuts in the tread that allows the blocks to "grab" the ice.
Experience tells me otherwise and I believe those tiny cuts are to "grab" the snow. There is nothing that can grab ice without stabbing into it like a stud would, otherwise what's the point of studs over snows? We had an ice storm last year and my complex exit is a sloped road with speed bumps that don't allow me to carry any momentum. Guess what? I was unable to leave without taking a speeding start and blasting over the bumps. All other attempts when stopping in the middle resulted in me sliding backwards.
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      11-03-2011, 09:36 AM   #43
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No, no, no.

Winter tires are made of a compound that stays soft in cold weather, plus they have thousands of tiny cuts in the tread that allows the blocks to "grab" the ice.

BrokenVert - I can speculate your reasoning is that, above 3 inches, a tire has no chance of digging-through to the road surface, so the advantage of having a wider tire with more tread grooves dominates. But the laws of physics still hold, and a skinny tire always puts more of the car's weight down per square inch. Maybe when they start including toboggans in the winter olympic slalom, I'll be convinced otherwise.


Why do people never read what I write?

You dont have to speculate, ive made my argument clear.

Yes, the skinny tire puts more pressure per square inch and that is the problem in deep snow!

You dig into the snow into more snow and make a nice deep hole for your rear tires that you cant get out of. Thats called getting stuck...and it is the thing that im avoiding in deep snow.

So I use physics in order to not get stuck in deep snow.
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      11-03-2011, 09:44 AM   #44
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Quote:
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Experience tells me otherwise and I believe those tiny cuts are to "grab" the snow. There is nothing that can grab ice without stabbing into it like a stud would, otherwise what's the point of studs over snows?
Studs are clearly the best on ice, just as AWD is the best drive configuration, but that doesn't mean that tire design doesn't make a big difference, or that stability control isn't amazingly effective.

The tiny cuts are for ice, where (believe it or not) the coefficient of friction is not zero in most cases. The main tread pattern is for snow.

While only studs will work on glass-smooth wet ice, an icy surface is usually rough and bumpy on a small scale. Snow tires allow me to go right up to the limit on icy back roads, where the stability control keeps the car in check.
ScotchAndCigar is offline   United_States
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