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      11-03-2011, 09:49 AM   #45
ScotchAndCigar
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BrokenVert View Post
Why do people never read what I write?
You dont have to speculate, ive made my argument clear.
Yes, the skinny tire puts more pressure per square inch and that is the problem in deep snow!
You dig into the snow into more snow and make a nice deep hole for your rear tires that you cant get out of. Thats called getting stuck...and it is the thing that im avoiding in deep snow.
So I use physics in order to not get stuck in deep snow.
It seems like we're discussing two different things. You're specifically referring to getting un-stuck, whereas I was assuming we're discussing driving in snow. Clear now?
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      11-03-2011, 09:59 AM   #46
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ScotchAndCigar View Post
It seems like we're discussing two different things. You're specifically referring to getting un-stuck, whereas I was assuming we're discussing driving in snow. Clear now?
No because im discussing not getting stuck in the first place. IE youre in deep soft snow (like the snow that I deal with) skinny tires will slip, and spin, and can dig in because of their high loading.

Fatter tires can help mitigate this by not being so happy to dig in. This is why I brought up snowshoes, because its the same principal.


Its not a rule for everyone, and ill say it again. Your choice of tire size should be one based on local conditions IE the amount of snow you get at a time, or the type of snow you get (hardpack, vs soft pawder etc) and you need to figure it out for yourself.

I used to run a 225/255 winter square setup and loved it. Then everyone told me that I made a mistake so when those wore out I went with a 225 square to see what all the fuss was about...and they didnt work for me, I got my rear wheels stuck quite a bit while trying to ascend the hills in syracuse, and it wasnt because I have a heavy foot.

So now I sold those tires and went back up in the rear... thats my scientific method and its one that im gonna stick with.
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      11-04-2011, 01:08 PM   #47
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Matt,

Your argument amounts to saying that in deep snow you want to drive on top of it so you don't high center your car (pack enough snow under you to lift the wheels off the pavement). The problem with that argument is the traction you will get with any tire on snow if too close to zero. With studs you can grip ice somewhat but you can never get much traction on snow. I am using absolutes which means you can come up with an example that is inconsistent with this but the principle is still correct, you do not want to count on your car going and braking based upon your traction pushing against snow. Hard packed and a little frozen may not work too bad but loose stuff is just going to move. I don't think you can count on every stretch being hard packed and frozen.

I haven't driven in Syracuse as much as you but I am sure I've driven in as much deep snow as you given the large difference in our ages. If you want to try this, it may work out OK for you but it won't be because wider tires are better. It will be because the relative difference we are all talking about isn't that great. You will be a little worse off with wider tires but only a little. So you will probably be fine. Your wider snow tires will still have more traction than my narrower all seasons, in other words.

Jim
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      11-05-2011, 08:42 AM   #48
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ScotchAndCigar View Post
No, no, no.

Winter tires are made of a compound that stays soft in cold weather, plus they have thousands of tiny cuts in the tread that allows the blocks to "grab" the ice.
)
Those tiny cuts are called sipes. They work by wicking up water off the surface of ice so the rubber can actually contact the ice. Ice itself is not slippery, it is the thin layer of water on top of ice (made by the weight of tire) that makes it slippery. That is how ice skates work. Weight of the blade creates a thin layer of water.
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      11-05-2011, 09:22 AM   #49
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i know how you feel man. im in pittsburgh and just got my winter tires put on last week during the freezing weather. now i feel like i should have waited because for the next week and a half its gonna be in the mid 50's low 60's and sunny.
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      11-05-2011, 11:52 AM   #50
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mosites87 View Post
i know how you feel man. im in pittsburgh and just got my winter tires put on last week during the freezing weather. now i feel like i should have waited because for the next week and a half its gonna be in the mid 50's low 60's and sunny.
Since my summer rims got messed up, I gotta ride on winters now til I pony up for new summer rims next spring. Not gonna switch back now. This weather seriously sucks! It's gonna be so nice out soon! Ugh
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      11-05-2011, 07:01 PM   #51
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BrokenVert View Post
:facepalm:

Youre focusing on one point of my argument, also in a sense, you agreed with my point.

First off "For You" isnt opinion based. It means choose the right tires for your area's climate, amount of snow, and type of snow.


And yes a narrow footprint digs in and is better a lot of the time, I havent denied that. But when you get into deep snow you keep digging, eventually you dont find any road, so youve dug a hole for your rear wheels that you cant get out of (thats called being stuck) and it happens in deep snow if you penetrate too far, hence why wider tires are better in deeper snow and yes I know that they ride ON TOP as you pointed out, thats the whole point! Its the same reason why man invented the snowshoe, or did you just ignore my entire rational on that?
The snow shoe argument needs to stop because it's a completely different technology and can not be directly compared to tires.
I didn't at all ignore the snow shoe, I addressed it directly.

A snow shoe is better for a man who is trying to walk in deep snow.
That doesn't translate to how tires work on a car.
On a car we aren't just considered with acceleration traction, we also need handling ability.

Since you made those claims I have been looking for and reading information about tires and snow and narrow vs wide, to see if anything has changed over the years..
Nearly everything I've found indicates the same information we've had for years, that narrow is better.

Two big authorities on tires and automobiles, the Tire Rack and Road & Track, state that narrower tires are better in snow than wider tires.
Since they both do testing on a lot of cars and tires, their information holds validity. It's up to you to provide proof for your assertion, other than your just your experience.

Mind you, I'm not saying that your experience is wrong. I'm just saying that it's completely counter to the greater experience information.
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      11-06-2011, 01:44 PM   #52
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I've tried both narrow and wide winter tyres on 4 different BMWs over the years. In deep snow, the only time wide tyres are better is when the snow is well packed and you are generally riding on top. In this situation it is easier to pull away from a stop and not dig in so that the car becomes high-centred, with a wider tyre. Basically, if you can walk on the snow without sinking in, then wide is better, in all other circumstances, narrow is better. In our neighbourhood, it is common to not see a snowplough all winter, so we can get quite a base of packed snow and ice.

On ice, my experience with modern winter tyres is that wider gives a slight advantage due to a wider band of sipes continually being pressed on to the surface as the wheel rotates.

In deep wet or slushy conditions and packed but loose snow, narrow tyres definitely work better than wide, as the slush will lift the tyre off the road to some degree if it is wider, but not enough to give any meaningful increase in ground clearance, just less grip as the tyre sort of hydroplanes in the snow.

As we don't see much deep and soft snow here, wider winter tyres work better for me.
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