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      02-23-2012, 04:59 PM   #45
///M1
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Thx for the much encouraging update, PainKillaMaan. Good to hear pricing may be decent, as well as the upgradability feature.

Quick question for the Ohlins folks - in their view, how many miles can you log in before they need to be rebuilt (granted a lot will depend on track/road usage)? For reference, for the Ohlins MotorSport Kit I have on my other car (sold through STaSIS), Ohlins recommends that they be rebuilt every 2yrs/12k (at an approximate cost of $400 for a complete rebuild, not factoring shop charges and shipping both ways). That may be a bit aggressive as far as timeframe as most people go well into 30K+ miles before a rebuilt becomes necessary. The suspension is so great that I just consider that the price to 'pay to play'. Would be useful to know what they think about this kit.
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      02-23-2012, 06:40 PM   #46
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ///M1 View Post
Thx for the much encouraging update, PainKillaMaan. Good to hear pricing may be decent, as well as the upgradability feature.

Quick question for the Ohlins folks - in their view, how many miles can you log in before they need to be rebuilt (granted a lot will depend on track/road usage)? For reference, for the Ohlins MotorSport Kit I have on my other car (sold through STaSIS), Ohlins recommends that they be rebuilt every 2yrs/12k (at an approximate cost of $400 for a complete rebuild, not factoring shop charges and shipping both ways). That may be a bit aggressive as far as timeframe as most people go well into 30K+ miles before a rebuilt becomes necessary. The suspension is so great that I just consider that the price to 'pay to play'. Would be useful to know what they think about this kit.
That's a GREAT question. First off, these kits are made to require less maintenance vs. the TTX series. I don't know the exact miles, but I think you will be pleased by getting more than you described. I will talk with them again soon and get a more specific number for you. I'm pretty sure that you won't need to pay $400 for a complete rebuild either. If anything, like with all other shocks of this type, you'll want to change out the oil and service them, but it should be at more acceptable intervals with this kit. I think that's another reason their excited about it...is because it fits exactly what we're all looking for...performance...but streetable. They already have the TTX for the high end performance folks (who want to pay for rebuilds annually etc). These are supposed to be great performance, but for folks like us...

I'll find out more when I talk with Jeff.
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      02-23-2012, 06:49 PM   #47
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ///M1 View Post
Thx for the much encouraging update, PainKillaMaan. Good to hear pricing may be decent, as well as the upgradability feature.

Quick question for the Ohlins folks - in their view, how many miles can you log in before they need to be rebuilt (granted a lot will depend on track/road usage)? For reference, for the Ohlins MotorSport Kit I have on my other car (sold through STaSIS), Ohlins recommends that they be rebuilt every 2yrs/12k (at an approximate cost of $400 for a complete rebuild, not factoring shop charges and shipping both ways). That may be a bit aggressive as far as timeframe as most people go well into 30K+ miles before a rebuilt becomes necessary. The suspension is so great that I just consider that the price to 'pay to play'. Would be useful to know what they think about this kit.
Typically every two years or 20K miles is what Koni and AST recommends to keep the dampers in optimum performance. Ohlins may have a different recommended service interval.
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      02-24-2012, 01:49 PM   #48
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Now they're waiting on the new kit systems coming out this month (end of January) so that they have the newest technology possible for the 1M. Then they'll come out with pricing for us.

Jeff said: "PSI is the only shop [known to Ohlins USA] to use TTX46 in the front and TTX36 in the rear, but again that's only for the M3 and not the 1M. It is not geared to be a "street legal" 1M product, and is not a kit specifically engineered for the 1M. If you do get the TTX systems, dealers should be informing you that they are not street legal systems, and all Ohlins warranties are out the window. That's why we're working on this system in the first place".

This is coming directly from Jeff at Ohlins (direct quote). If you want to call them, please do. This is a project very close to him, and he's been excited to see this product coming to market!
No doubt about it that Ohlins is on top of their game. The engineering, testing/R&D, production/manufacturing quality that goes into every Ohlins product is the reason they have secured countless numbers of World championships over the course of the companies history, since 1976 It's why we push it, because we believe in the product and why we have chosen to build application specific kits using Ohlins components.

Yes, we have developed a complete TTX kit (TTX46 front strut and TTX36 rear damper)for the E92 M3. It is sold as a competition product, not a street product. That being said, many enthusiasts still will go ahead and and install motorsport product on their vehicles even though it is sold as a 'competition use only product' with the understanding that it will require increased maintenance over a standard aftermarket replacement suspension. Just because a suspension carries a heavy price tag, doesn't mean it is maintenance free. This 'kit' that you speak of is born of 'MOTORSPORT' parts and will not carry a warranty either, as it is NOT a Road & Track kit. Being a motorsport product, it will only be available through approved Ohlins 'Motorsport' dealers.

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Are you ordering the TTX kits from PSI? "Raceline" is a PSI term, not really an Ohlins term. According to Ohlins, PSI's Raceline kit's are basic 2-way adjustable TTX36 kits built in-house at PSI. Those kits are not exactly street warrantied kits, and are not backed by Ohlins (they're backed by PSI). Road and Track is what we're developing at Ohlins now (speaking for the 1M, of course), and we're also improving on the other kits specifically for the 1M, through shake rig testing. In fact, all of these 1M kits will all be shake rig tested at Ohlins USA in Henersonville, NC.
Yep, Raceline is a PSI term, it's what we call our line of application specific kits . The components used within our kits depends on the application. For the M3, we offer a complete TTX kit (TTX46 front strut/TTX36 rear damper). We also offer an 'inverted' 36mm front strut which is double adjustable paired with either a TTX36 (piggyback) or ILX36 (inline) rear. And yes, these are not street warrantied kits and are NOT backed by a warranty from Ohlins. BTW, a "basic" TTX 2-way damper is anything but basic. The TTX36 is a super powerful damper and highlights some of Ohlins latest technology! Again, a 'Road and Track' kit is NOT what is being developed for your car, if that is what you are being told, that is simply incorrect information. The only Ohlins approved Road & Track kits are as follows:

BMSMI00 BMW 3-series E90 (non-M)
BMSMI10 BMW Mini R50/53
BMSMI20 BMW Mini R56
HOSMI20 Honda S2000
HOSMI30 Honda Civic (FD2)
LOV1-4D00 Lotus Elise
MASMI20 Mazda NA/B Miata
MASMI30 Mazda NC MX5
MASMI00 Mazda RX8
MASMI10 Mazda RX7 (FD)
MISMI00 Mitsubishi Evo 7-9
MISMI10 Mitsubishi Evo 10
NISMI00 Nissan 350Z
NISMI10 Nissan R34 Skyline
OPV1-4E00 Opel Speedster/Vauxhall VX220
POF5J01/6J01 Porsche 997GT3RS (this kit utilizes TTX46 strut/TTX36 (ILX) rear)
SUSMI00 Subaru Legacy
SUSMI10 Subaru Imprezza (GRB)
SZSMI00 Suzuki Swift Sports
VWSMI00 VW Golf (Mk5)

Quote:
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Trust me, when we're all done...PSI will be using these kits exclusively for the 1M, unless they've already done the development on their own (which could be the case). Again, it would be worked backed by the vendor PSI, and not directly by Ohlins.
Please do not speak on our behalf as to what we would use or not use, and yes, it would done by us an not Ohlins. It should be worth noting here that we are the ONLY other authorized service centers for Ohlins Road & Track product, besides Ohlins USA.

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To answer your last question, Ohlins is planning on using the development work to release suspension setups for the 1M across all of their lines; that includes TTX as well (but that suspension is NOT recommended for the street).
Hmmm....that is kinda strange since the Porsche Road & Track kit is TTX based.

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That will help them tune in each suspension setup, and dial them in specifically for each of the popular tracks in the US (that's the goal). So if Joe Smoe says: "hey i'm going to Road American", or "Barber or "Laguna"...than the Ohlins guys will be able to tell them a good starting point, based on (and depending on) collected information from race teams (including some of the professional Indy teams).
Unless you are taking your car to those tracks and collecting data with it that will not apply. Data taken from an Indy Car will not relate to a 1M in any way at all.

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These kits will be available in either 2 or 3-way adjustable models. Don't be worried if you can only get the 2-ways at first, because Ohlins is saying that you can always upgrade later to a 3-way if that's what you want to do later. That's really good news for people who want to keep costs down, and get into an Ohlins setup.
Absolutely true, for about 500.00 per damper you can upgrade to a 2-speed adjuster cylinder head in the canister.

Quote:
Originally Posted by v1k0d3n View Post
That's a GREAT question. First off, these kits are made to require less maintenance vs. the TTX series. I don't know the exact miles, but I think you will be pleased by getting more than you described. I will talk with them again soon and get a more specific number for you. I'm pretty sure that you won't need to pay $400 for a complete rebuild either. If anything, like with all other shocks of this type, you'll want to change out the oil and service them, but it should be at more acceptable intervals with this kit. I think that's another reason their excited about it...is because it fits exactly what we're all looking for...performance...but streetable. They already have the TTX for the high end performance folks (who want to pay for rebuilds annually etc). These are supposed to be great performance, but for folks like us...
400.00 for a complete re-build of 4 dampers is cheap, like in the gutter cheap. Typical re-build on a 46HRC damper (used in STaSIS Motorsport kit) runs about 200.00 per damper. An inverted front strut could be be more depending on the condition of the DU bushings and grease in the strut casing. We see a lot of them (STaSIS MS)come through our shop. An 'acceptable service interval' is pretty subjective as there are many variables involved (environment, level of abuse, mileage, etc.). If anything the TTX could see longer service intervals. Due to it's pressure balanced system, the N2 pressure is around 40 psi, vs. 175 psi in a monotube design, resulting in reduced wear and drag on all internal seals.

Bottom line, Ohlins makes a great product and so does Performance Shock. At the end of the day, our goal is to provide enthusiasts with a product that is second to none. We are one of Ohlins USA's largest automotive dealers and we stand behind the product and will continue to push the brand into new markets. Thanks for your time.
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      02-24-2012, 01:59 PM   #49
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Lastly, I'm sure that you will have a great suspension under your 1M! I look forward to hearing about it.
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      02-24-2012, 05:12 PM   #50
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Lastly, I'm sure that you will have a great suspension under your 1M! I look forward to hearing about it.
Hey welcome to the forum! I'm looking forward to it too. This is actually a development effort for a road and track, fully warrantied system from Ohlins. They already have the TTX being used; I believe you guys are doing a lot of this on the 1M already, am I right?

From what Jeff Baucam told me from Ohlins is that if a shop customizes a TTX setup (for instance, uses an M3 setup for a 1M), the shop takes responsibility for the warranties. And this goes without saying...the shops are usually great about warrantying their work. I didn't mean to step on any toes or misrepresent anything; so I'm sorry if it seemed like I spoke for you. That wasn't my intention at all.

And when I said that about "using for their TTX lines as well"; I wasn't trying to imply that 1M development was going to improve any of the other TTX series, it would just give them a better idea of how to create setups specifically for the 1M.

Most everthing else (I think anyway), we're on the same page. Again, sorry if I misstated something. I wasn't trying to. I've been working with these guys for a while (both for motorcycle and 1M work). I'm not claiming to be a know-iot-all by any means...they're the experts and I just regurgitate things that I'm allowed to repeat Sometimes, I may not even get that totally right! lol

Thanks for the extra info...I think a lot of people are looking forward in seeing what comes out for the 1M, especially if it gives them more options than the standard track driven TTX series. I know that I am!
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      02-24-2012, 05:46 PM   #51
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We should have our kit (1M) released for sale within the next couple of weeks for the 1M. HP Autoworks is a Raceline dealer. M3 kit is available now.
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      02-24-2012, 05:50 PM   #52
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We should have our kit (1M) released for sale within the next couple of weeks for the 1M. HP Autoworks is a Raceline dealer. M3 kit is available now.
Based on the new M3 kits that were just released in Feb, right?
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      02-24-2012, 05:56 PM   #53
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Based on the new M3 kits that were just released in Feb, right?
Based on inverted 36mm strut (2-way) and TTX inline rear dampers...Beau can chime in with more details.
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      02-24-2012, 06:16 PM   #54
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Based on inverted 36mm strut (2-way) and TTX inline rear dampers...Beau can chime in with more details.
You got it, you are spot on!
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      02-24-2012, 06:30 PM   #55
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You got it, you are spot on!
Cool. Yeah, so this should be something different and you will be able to order it as a 1M specific kit from Ohlins soon. Call Jeff and he will tell you what we're working on. This should be fully warrantied direct from Ohlins.
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      02-24-2012, 07:52 PM   #56
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I am fully aware of the kit that they are working on....it's slated to be a Motorsport kit, it is not Road & Track. And it will be 1M specific as will ours.
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      03-03-2012, 12:00 PM   #57
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OK, now I'm confused.

My understanding was that Ohlins "Road and Track" was very different than the motorsports based products. Per Ohlins own website and what I'd gathered, I'd thought that R&T were:

1. Single adjustable ("Damping rate on the R&T units is fully adjustable and ties compression and rebound together as a matched setting")
http://www.roadandtrackbyohlins.com/...hlins-concept/

2. Use this "Dual Flow Valve" system ("The new Íhlins R&T range uses DFV technology on every single fitment"). http://www.roadandtrackbyohlins.com/en/the-technology/
The DFV pics in the link look a lot like a regular shim stack, etc, but with the added orange bit designed to increase the digression at high shock speeds?

3. Less expensive and designed for street use. They are street legal, tuned for more comfort on the way to the track, and do not need rebuilds as often.

4. Lower performance: given that they are single adjustable, probably have higher seal friction to enable the longer time between rebuilds, etc, I assume they can't match a motorsports based kit. They come with springs they are matched to, so you can't select and tune your own spring rates.

All of which adds up to something that like shock for the E90 BMW 3 series in this PDF:

http://www.roadandtrackbyohlins.com/...3-series_2.pdf

http://www.roadandtrackbyohlins.com/en/product-range/

So I thought I'd understood... Then I saw these, also listed as "Road and Track" for the GT3 RS:

http://www.roadandtrackbyohlins.com/...he_gt3rs_1.pdf

That's obviously the motorsports based shock. It says double adjustable, etc. But it's sold as "Road and Track"...

So what's the deal? Is "Road and Track" just a marketing name, or are there actual difference on those TTXs that make them need rebuilds less often, etc?

Just as important, what is Ohlins working on for the 1M, one of those TTX based solutions (which I have to assume will be more expensive at least) or something like the other R&T shocks (single adjustable, etc)?

The TTX based solutions that are currently available, is there anything that can be done to make them more "streetable" (primarily meaning longer time between rebuild)? Those systems run around 5k, I'm guessing, if you go for the less adjustable versions?
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      03-03-2012, 12:52 PM   #58
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OK, now I'm confused.

So I thought I'd understood... Then I saw these, also listed as "Road and Track" for the GT3 RS:


That's obviously the motorsports based shock. It says double adjustable, etc. But it's sold as "Road and Track"...

So what's the deal? Is "Road and Track" just a marketing name, or are there actual difference on those TTXs that make them need rebuilds less often, etc?

Just as important, what is Ohlins working on for the 1M, one of those TTX based solutions (which I have to assume will be more expensive at least) or something like the other R&T shocks (single adjustable, etc)?

The TTX based solutions that are currently available, is there anything that can be done to make them more "streetable" (primarily meaning longer time between rebuild)? Those systems run around 5k, I'm guessing, if you go for the less adjustable versions?
That and the Lotus applications are the exceptions in the R&T series.

No, TTX is a motorsport product. Street use is certainly possible with more frequent rebuids and service.


TTX kits starts at $7500 for 2-way, $8500 for 3-way and $9500 for 4-way. You will still need to source your own camber plates, springs and height adjusters, which will set you back another $1000 or so.

Last edited by HP Autosport; 03-03-2012 at 12:57 PM.
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      03-03-2012, 02:33 PM   #59
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That and the Lotus applications are the exceptions in the R&T series.

No, TTX is a motorsport product. Street use is certainly possible with more frequent rebuids and service.


TTX kits starts at $7500 for 2-way, $8500 for 3-way and $9500 for 4-way. You will still need to source your own camber plates, springs and height adjusters, which will set you back another $1000 or so.
I guess the pricing more than name will clearly clarify which type of product Ohlins USA is developing- ~3k or ~8k+.

On a technical note, this page gives a great explanation of what Ohlins uses that shaker rig for, and why it's awesome that they had a 1M on there to measure:
http://www.ohlinsusa.com/us/index.ph...hicle-dynamics

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      03-06-2012, 01:40 AM   #60
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Most if not all here are waiting for the R&T product. TTX is not a street setup at all.
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      03-06-2012, 10:44 AM   #61
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Most if not all here are waiting for the R&T product. TTX is not a street setup at all.
Hold on, according to PSI they are not working on a true R&T setup, if I understood correctly?

I'm certainly waiting to see what materializes on the R&T side. I don't think the car can compete in A-Stock; my friend has an A-Stock Cayman with custom Ohlins from PSI, and from what we can see it will be a rare course where the 1M could be quicker. Given that, I'm not looking for the adjust-ability of the TTX based systems. The R&T seems the move for me, group buy?
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      03-06-2012, 11:20 AM   #62
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Hold on, according to PSI they are not working on a true R&T setup, if I understood correctly?

I'm certainly waiting to see what materializes on the R&T side. I don't think the car can compete in A-Stock; my friend has an A-Stock Cayman with custom Ohlins from PSI, and from what we can see it will be a rare course where the 1M could be quicker. Given that, I'm not looking for the adjust-ability of the TTX based systems. The R&T seems the move for me, group buy?
I don't think a group buy will happen on this high end product.
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      03-06-2012, 04:12 PM   #63
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I don't think a group buy will happen on this high end product.
It'll depend on the final price, I'm sure- no chance if it's TTX based. How many people would be needed do you think- 5, 10?
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      03-06-2012, 04:20 PM   #64
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It'll depend on the final price, I'm sure- no chance if it's TTX based. How many people would be needed do you think- 5, 10?
There is not going to be a GB.
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      03-07-2012, 12:21 AM   #65
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Can't wait to see this!

Have had ohlins in previous car, it's just an amazing coilover and it's well priced as well.
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      03-07-2012, 12:03 PM   #66
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Location: Santa Barbara, Brembo, GIAC, Koni, Ohlins, Performance Friction, Quaife, Stoptech, Vorshlag

Posts: 11,079
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Quote:
Originally Posted by eriktufa View Post
Can't wait to see this!

Have had ohlins in previous car, it's just an amazing coilover and it's well priced as well.
All of their kits are priced well for what they are.
HP Autosport is offline   United_States
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